Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[ZNOP]

Does any feat during Morrison's run count when Jean was manifesting the Phoenix throughout? Does anyone have a definitive answer about when Jean relied on the Phoenix during Morrison's run? I'm not trying to downplay anything on either side, but after pages of this argument, it seems to me that Jean, Emma, and whoever else might be brought up, is as strong as the story demands. Consistency hasn't been a priority for Marvel.

The PF was a part of her but she didnt go full on Phoenix until the end and that primarily amplified her TK. The most impressive feat Jean did as a telepath during that run was splitting up Xavier's mind into every person on Earth but she used Cerebra for that. I dont think Morrison wrote her as doing anything with her TP during that run that she wasnt shown to be able to do before

I for one can say that Jean has never been shattered with a diamond bullet... That says something, right?

[Alphaxman]

Does any feat during Morrison's run count when Jean was manifesting the Phoenix throughout? Does anyone have a definitive answer about when Jean relied on the Phoenix during Morrison's run? I'm not trying to downplay anything on either side, but after pages of this argument, it seems to me that Jean, Emma, and whoever else might be brought up, is as strong as the story demands. Consistency hasn't been a priority for Marvel.

In my opinion, I look at it like this: I don’t think she really uses the “Phoenix Force” until after she died in space with Wolverine, just like way back when in issue 100. Unlike Rachel, Jean has to die and be reborn to become a Phoenix. I also think that using her powers to the fullest drew the Force to her, like it recognized that she was fully willing to embrace her destiny. That’s why Rachel had such success with it, because she wasn’t afraid of the Force, unlike Hope or the other failed host.

[Hizashi]

The PF was a part of her but she didnt go full on Phoenix until the end and that primarily amplified her TK. The most impressive feat Jean did as a telepath during that run was splitting up Xavier's mind into every person on Earth but she used Cerebra for that. I dont think Morrison wrote her as doing anything with her TP during that run that she wasnt shown to be able to do before

I get that too, but doesn't it make a difference that she's tapping into it at all? Maybe she wasn't full on Phoenix, but even a piece of it gives tremendous power, right? I did enjoy the issue where Emma and Jean go spelunking in Xavier's mind, though.

[Hizashi]

I for one can say that Jean has never been shattered with a diamond bullet... That says something, right?

Indeed, it does. I haven't been shattered by a diamond bullet either~

[Hizashi]

In my opinion, I look at it like this: I don’t think she really uses the “Phoenix Force” until after she died in space with Wolverine, just like way back when in issue 100. Unlike Rachel, Jean has to die and be reborn to become a Phoenix. I also think that using her powers to the fullest drew the Force to her, like it recognized that she was fully willing to embrace her destiny. That’s why Rachel had such success with it, because she wasn’t afraid of the Force, unlike Hope or the other failed host.

That's an interesting line of thought, but why was she manifesting the Phoenix if she wasn't using some of it's power? I don't think Jean is pyrokinetic.

[Havok83]

That's an interesting line of thought, but why was she manifesting the Phoenix if she wasn't using some of it's power? I don't think Jean is pyrokinetic.

I think that was all for effect. Like we saw fire around her hair in NXM 120, but she wasnt actually burning anything. With that said, she is a TK that can manipulate molecules down to the atoms. Its really not beyond her abilities to do that without the PF. We've seen Jean with fire imagery before when she canonically did not have access to the PF. I get what you are saying though as its hard to seperate. We can only compare these feats to what she's done before

[Hizashi]

I think that was all for effect. Like we saw fire around her hair in NXM 120, but she wasnt actually burning anything. With that said, she is a TK that can manipulate molecules down to the atoms. Its really not beyond her abilities to do that without the PF. We've seen Jean with fire imagery before when she canonically did not have access to the PF. I get what you are saying though as its hard to seperate. We can only compare these feats to what she's done before

Do you think it was intentionally ambiguous then, whether Jean was using the Phoenix force or not before her (first) death during Morrison's run? I read it as her very clearly manifesting Phoenix powers, after all Scott and Xavier had concerns regarding the return of the Phoenix.

Also, I didn't know TK's could do that, that's pretty cool.

[Havok83]

Do you think it was intentionally ambiguous then, whether Jean was using the Phoenix force or not before her (first) death during Morrison's run? I read it as her very clearly manifesting Phoenix powers, after all Scott and Xavier had concerns regarding the return of the Phoenix.

Also, I didn't know TK's could do that, that's pretty cool.

I dont think it was ambigous. Morrison clearly had it that Jean was tapping into the PF. I just dnot think anything she did prior to the end was PF level power. Putting Emma back together maybe was but throughout that run, can you pick out anything that Jean shouldnt have been able to do without the PF?

Not every TK can do that but a very powerful and skilled one can

[DarkMagnus]

too much debate for a very stupid and repetitive question. xD

For Jean Fans she is more powerful than Emma and viceversa.

The true is that the characters work wonderful together and if Marvel see it that way they could buy a perfect Xmen book.

Imagine two headmistress that not like each other that much. but they need to be together because when they work together can acomplish wonderful things.

[Hizashi]

I dont think it was ambigous. Morrison clearly had it that Jean was tapping into the PF. I just dnot think anything she did prior to the end was PF level power. Putting Emma back together maybe was but throughout that run, can you pick out anything that Jean shouldnt have been able to do without the PF?

Not every TK can do that but a very powerful and skilled one can

I'm willing to concede that other than putting Emma back together (and maybe stopping that bullet meant for Xavier?), everything she did during Morrison's run seemed within her own power to me. I don't think Marvel has made questions like these as easy to answer as some think, however, thanks to their sliding timescales, power inconsistency, etc.

I'm sorry, I meant Marvel's TK's, I don't recall any of them ever using pyrokinesis regularly in any capacity.

[PhoenixStudies]

Jean moved oxygen molecules really fast around Cassandra to create an explosion with her TK in New #116. She didn't start accessing her Phoenix potential until New #120.

People are also forgetting that Morrison wrote the Phoenix as a duality. It is a mutation and a higher cosmic/evolutionary force/consciousness.

Phoenix avatars are those with a mutation for it. This is connected to their mutation for omega level telekinesis. Extreme telekinetic sensitivity is known as the manifestation of the Phoenix.

Sublime Beast called Jean's blood and the genes in it-- "the Blood of the Phoenix, the ultimate mutation, telekinetic godhood in a jar".

He gave himself Phoenix power by injecting himself with Jean's blood. Yet, he did not have the Phoenix force/consciousness or any fire effects.



Jean still had Phoenix level tk after Cassandra unplugged the crown and disconnected her from the Phoenix force/consciousness.

Even in New 148 when Jean tells Logan everything she knows about the Phoenix, she starts talking about herself and how her powers grew from when she was 13 and moving physical objects until now where she can move molecules. Then she starts talking about the Phoenix as a cosmic thing that talks to her and eats stars and planets. If she gets too close to it, it replaces her, meaning she is consumed by it and compelled to do Phoenix Work.

This is because it has a dual nature. At least by Morrison's interpretation. Claremont's interpretation seems to gel with this as well.

Jean began accessing her Phoenix potential through her mutation in New 120 but didn't become the fully cosmic Phoenix until she was reborn in New 148/150. There wasn't any need for any external force/entity to enter her.

[rutog98]

Xorrneto was clearly more skilled than Phoenix Jean. Not PIS. Jean can't even stop Juggernaunt yet alone a Magneto wannabe who can flip the world upside down.

Phoenix Jean was able to survive in a star right before this moment. That makes this PIS. I agree that Plain Jean (without the PF) cannot stop either Juggernaut or Magneto, but Phoenix Force Jean Grey, when she is not PIS'd, can.

[rutog98]

I'm not playing by these rules anymore. Besides, Teen Jean demonstrates that the ability to absorb/channel psychic energies from others is a part of Jean's telepathic power set. If this ability doesn't discredit Exodus and others who can do it, why should it discredit Jean? So what if she can draw energy from Betsy's TP or Cable's TK or the Phoenix Force or even Cerebro/a?

Again, when she pulled this feat, she had Psylocke's powers added to her own PLUS she used Cable's TK. This doesn't help prove that she's superior to Emma.

[rutog98]

No, Jean has more power than Emma.

Emma has no edge in power or skill over Jean. But she sure wishes she did!

The "edge" some think Emma has is just her nasty personality. Not an edge most heroes would aspire to achieve.

Jean doesn't understand many things that come across as rudimentary. I did a whole post on that a while back. Emma comes across much more skilled than Jean and much more powerful unless Jean has the PF boosting her up.

[rutog98]

That's the point though. This whole thread is based on a false premise. Your arguing in many places that this or that example of Emma can't be used because she's not at full power, or some other excuse but your not extending that same courtesy to Jean. So by definition you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Again, what's the point? I could find any character and say they're more powerful than any other character because of some limitation or handicap that character was experiencing at the time. It's just not a valid comparison.

On the Jean=Phoenix I think you are confusing the Phoenix as a physical manifestation with the PF as a psionic power center. I blame Marvel for the ambiguity here as they have deeply overcomplicated this. The concept is that Jean is the physical manifestation of the PF but that does not proclude others from briefly gaining access to the psionic energy the PF provides. Technically all telepaths access the PF tangentially because it is the source of all psionic energy in the universe. The more prominant examples (Hope, Rachel, P5) are what I would consider fragments of the PF (for example what Emma still held onto in the JG solo) and if we must follow canon could easily be explained by the Shi'ar shattering the Phoenix into pieces pre-Endsong. To my knowledge this situation was never definitively resolved.

Jean is not the physical manifestation of the PF. Jean is sometimes a host to the PF. That's all. The point I am trying to make is when Jean Grey is not housing the PF or she doesn't have Cerebro boosting her powers or she doesn't have another TP's powers added to her own, she is far below Emma. We have a whole decade of the 90s where we saw Jean when she wasn't housing the PF and her powers were not that impressive. Emma was much more powerful and much more skilled.