Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[Chaos Reigns]

Jean cannot evolve into the Phoenix Force, LOL! You are trying to go by the original Phoenix story while ignoring the retcon. What you are trying to argue hasn't been the case in over 30 years. Also, Morrison clearly established the PF as a separate entity from Jean Grey. She always referred to it in the third person. She even told Emma, "Its just you and me and the Phoenix." Also, CC clearly established Jean as being separate from the Phoenix Force during his second run on the book when he had that D'bari guy come after Jean to avenge his people's death at the hands of the Dark Phoenix. Jean was clearly stated to be a separate being from the Phoenix Force entity.

Look, I understand why Jean fans want to try and make the argument you're trying to prove. Without the PF and without Betsy's powers added to Jean's TP, Jean has never really been all that impressive. She's still a strong telepath without all of that, but she's dwarfed by so many others (Xavier, White Queen, Shadow King, Bogan, Exodus, X-Man, Cassandra Nova, Stryfe, etc.). Jean fans want to believe that she can compete with these people when she clearly cannot. Heck, I'm a Pre-Morrison Emma fan and I like her more than some of the people on that list, but I'm big enough to acknowledge that many of them can best Emma in psi-combat.

Getting back to Morrison, it isn't that Jean evolved into the Phoenix so much that she merely housed it within her being. She was one of the few people around who was genetically fit to be able to house the PF. That's what was special about Jean after the retcon. Read what Ghost Jean told the Phoenix Force in this scan:

http://readcomicbooksonline.net/read...2010/cw017.jpg

Anyway, with the PF, Jean Grey is near-unbeatable. It was also PIS how Xorneto killed her at the end of Morrison's run with that planetwide EMP stroke he hit her with while his powers were amped on kick. Phoenix Force Jean Grey had just gone for a swim in the sun, which has an EM field one trillion times as powerful as the Earth, on top of the large quantities of radiation materials, heat, etc it contained. That EMP thing is something she should have either eaten or not even felt.

She already did so anything you say after that is irrelevant.

[Warund]

The Phoenix Force is a separate entity from Jean Grey. It is a creature as old as creation itself that sometimes chooses Jean as its host. I'll admit, however, that Jean does seem to be its favorite host, but it is still somebody else. That's why I make the distinction. Jean was clearly not as powerful in the 90s as she was during the Morrison run when she was possessed by the PF. Its the PF that made the difference.

Honestly, even this is up for discussion. There are many moments during X-history where Jean=Phoenix is implied to be true. I am unable to provide scans at the moment, but all of the following panels are pretty well known. If someone has them,please share! There is one, I think it was Essential X-Men where Death tells Jean that her soul is most closely carved from the Phoenix itself. In Endsong, Jean says that when all their parts were together, that the Phoenix would understand, to which Phoenix replies: ''because you and I are one.'' There's an uncanny issue where Cable says: No offense, Jean, but shouldn't only Phoenix be able to do this? To which Jean replies: and who am I?

My point is that it is unclear to which extent Jean=Phoenix goes. There is enough evidence to support the Jean=Phoenix=Jean theory. The way I see it, she is not necessairly the bird itself, but she has natural acess to the force, which means that any Phoenix powers are a natural extension of Jean's baseline powers, and this is why it feels weird to me that you are denying her something that is basically ''Jean's birthright'', as I think Death once told her.

[rutog98]

She already did so anything you say after that is irrelevant.

No, she didn't. The retcon destroyed the original story.

[rutog98]

Honestly, even this is up for discussion. There are many moments during X-history where Jean=Phoenix is implied to be true. I am unable to provide scans at the moment, but all of the following panels are pretty well known. If someone has them,please share! There is one, I think it was Essential X-Men where Death tells Jean that her soul is most closely carved from the Phoenix itself. In Endsong, Jean says that when all their parts were together, that the Phoenix would understand, to which Phoenix replies: ''because you and I are one.'' There's an uncanny issue where Cable says: No offense, Jean, but shouldn't only Phoenix be able to do this? To which Jean replies: and who am I?

My point is that it is unclear to which extent Jean=Phoenix goes. There is enough evidence to support the Jean=Phoenix=Jean theory. The way I see it, she is not necessairly the bird itself, but she has natural acess to the force, which means that any Phoenix powers are a natural extension of Jean's baseline powers, and this is why it feels weird to me that you are denying her something that is basically ''Jean's birthright'', as I think Death once told her.

Phoenix=Jean is only presented that way because in a sense they were the same. The Phoenix Force created a carbon copy of Jean's body using a portion of Jean's soul as it mimicked her personality, appearance, and memories. Then, after all of that, it gave those memories to Jean at the end of "Inferno". So, in a sense, you can argue that Jean=Phoenix, but not in the way Jean fans want to try and claim it.

Also, that Death conversation is no longer valid. During that time, the PF was retconned into being a non-sentient cosmic force that was a part of all living things that only Jean and her children could tap into. However, this changed when Marvel decided to make the PF a sentient cosmic abstract entity and it has remained that ever since. When people like Feron, the Phoenix Five, Rachel Grey, Thanos's son, etc, get possessed by the Phoenix Force, they are not possessed by Jean Grey. Nobody wielding the PF is saying, "I'm possessed by Jean Grey because the Phoenix Force is nothing but Jean." The argument you Jean fans come up with amounts to these kinds of claims if you think through what you're saying. It's the height of silliness.

Look, the Phoenix Force is the spark that ignited creation. So, it is as old as the universe. Jean Grey is a mutant in her 20s. She was not around at the time of creation. Respect the retcon. What you guys are trying to argue has not been the case for nearly 40 years.

[Chaos Reigns]

No, she didn't. The retcon destroyed the original story.

They retconned it again stick with current continuity.

[Ulfhammer]

Jean cannot evolve into the Phoenix Force, LOL! You are trying to go by the original Phoenix story while ignoring the retcon. What you are trying to argue hasn't been the case in over 30 years. Also, Morrison clearly established the PF as a separate entity from Jean Grey. She always referred to it in the third person. She even told Emma, "Its just you and me and the Phoenix." Also, CC clearly established Jean as being separate from the Phoenix Force during his second run on the book when he had that D'bari guy come after Jean to avenge his people's death at the hands of the Dark Phoenix. Jean was clearly stated to be a separate being from the Phoenix Force entity.

Look, I understand why Jean fans want to try and make the argument you're trying to prove. Without the PF and without Betsy's powers added to Jean's TP, Jean has never really been all that impressive. She's still a strong telepath without all of that, but she's dwarfed by so many others (Xavier, White Queen, Shadow King, Bogan, Exodus, X-Man, Cassandra Nova, Stryfe, etc.). Jean fans want to believe that she can compete with these people when she clearly cannot. Heck, I'm a Pre-Morrison Emma fan and I like her more than some of the people on that list, but I'm big enough to acknowledge that many of them can best Emma in psi-combat.

Getting back to Morrison, it isn't that Jean evolved into the Phoenix so much that she merely housed it within her being. She was one of the few people around who was genetically fit to be able to house the PF. That's what was special about Jean after the retcon. Read what Ghost Jean told the Phoenix Force in this scan:

http://readcomicbooksonline.net/read...2010/cw017.jpg

Anyway, with the PF, Jean Grey is near-unbeatable. It was also PIS how Xorneto killed her at the end of Morrison's run with that planetwide EMP stroke he hit her with while his powers were amped on kick. Phoenix Force Jean Grey had just gone for a swim in the sun, which has an EM field one trillion times as powerful as the Earth, on top of the large quantities of radiation materials, heat, etc it contained. That EMP thing is something she should have either eaten or not even felt.

Classic X-Men #43 (1990) answers the question definitely. Death explains to Jean that the Phoenix is a force that she wield's. Jean is the physical embodiment of the Phoenix as in it's alternative state it is simply psionic energy. There is no physical version of the Phoenix that is not Jean, including Maddie and the Phoenix that appeared in the DPS.

Some of the relevent dialog appears here.

There are times when Jean exists absent the PF as a physical entity but that doesn't change the reality of her nature as the "Phoenix" as a character as well as "Jean" and absent her PF she is incomplete as a character which is why you can't really compare her "Non-PF" version with Emma.

Of course Jean was originally one of the weakest members of the x-men which is exactly why the Phoenix mythology and aspect was given to her in the first place. Again, that doesn't disprove this in any way.

[rutog98]

Classic X-Men #43 (1990) answers the question definitely. Death explains to Jean that the Phoenix is a force that she wield's. Jean is the physical embodiment of the Phoenix as in it's alternative state it is simply psionic energy. There is no physical version of the Phoenix that is not Jean, including Maddie and the Phoenix that appeared in the DPS.

Some of the relevent dialog appears here.

There are times when Jean exists absent the PF as a physical entity but that doesn't change the reality of her nature as the "Phoenix" as a character as well as "Jean" and absent her PF she is incomplete as a character which is why you can't really compare her "Non-PF" version with Emma.

Of course Jean was originally one of the weakest members of the x-men which is exactly why the Phoenix mythology and aspect was given to her in the first place. Again, that doesn't disprove this in any way.

Jean is only the host of the Phoenix Force sometimes. Jean isn't the one going around possessing Rachel, the Phoenix 5, Feron, etc. There were Phoenix Force hosts before Jean was even born. Jean states point blank in plain English that the Dark Phoenix was not her during CC's second run in the 2000s, but somebody else. All of this stuff you're talking about is nothing but wishful thinking and your own personal theories which have been debunked by decades of canon.

Look, now this thread is about Jean Grey without being possessed by that cosmic tweety bird and how she stands on her own against Emma. She's far Far FAR below Emma's power grade.

[JasonEsta]

Jean cannot evolve into the Phoenix Force, LOL! You are trying to go by the original Phoenix story while ignoring the retcon. What you are trying to argue hasn't been the case in over 30 years. Also, Morrison clearly established the PF as a separate entity from Jean Grey. She always referred to it in the third person. She even told Emma, "Its just you and me and the Phoenix." Also, CC clearly established Jean as being separate from the Phoenix Force during his second run on the book when he had that D'bari guy come after Jean to avenge his people's death at the hands of the Dark Phoenix. Jean was clearly stated to be a separate being from the Phoenix Force entity.

Look, I understand why Jean fans want to try and make the argument you're trying to prove. Without the PF and without Betsy's powers added to Jean's TP, Jean has never really been all that impressive. She's still a strong telepath without all of that, but she's dwarfed by so many others (Xavier, White Queen, Shadow King, Bogan, Exodus, X-Man, Cassandra Nova, Stryfe, etc.). Jean fans want to believe that she can compete with these people when she clearly cannot. Heck, I'm a Pre-Morrison Emma fan and I like her more than some of the people on that list, but I'm big enough to acknowledge that many of them can best Emma in psi-combat.

Getting back to Morrison, it isn't that Jean evolved into the Phoenix so much that she merely housed it within her being. She was one of the few people around who was genetically fit to be able to house the PF. That's what was special about Jean after the retcon. Read what Ghost Jean told the Phoenix Force in this scan:

http://readcomicbooksonline.net/read...2010/cw017.jpg

Anyway, with the PF, Jean Grey is near-unbeatable. It was also PIS how Xorneto killed her at the end of Morrison's run with that planetwide EMP stroke he hit her with while his powers were amped on kick. Phoenix Force Jean Grey had just gone for a swim in the sun, which has an EM field one trillion times as powerful as the Earth, on top of the large quantities of radiation materials, heat, etc it contained. That EMP thing is something she should have either eaten or not even felt.

Xorrneto was clearly more skilled than Phoenix Jean. Not PIS. Jean can't even stop Juggernaunt yet alone a Magneto wannabe who can flip the world upside down.

[ZNOP]

Honestly, even this is up for discussion. There are many moments during X-history where Jean=Phoenix is implied to be true. I am unable to provide scans at the moment, but all of the following panels are pretty well known. If someone has them,please share! There is one, I think it was Essential X-Men where Death tells Jean that her soul is most closely carved from the Phoenix itself. In Endsong, Jean says that when all their parts were together, that the Phoenix would understand, to which Phoenix replies: ''because you and I are one.'' There's an uncanny issue where Cable says: No offense, Jean, but shouldn't only Phoenix be able to do this? To which Jean replies: and who am I?

My point is that it is unclear to which extent Jean=Phoenix goes. There is enough evidence to support the Jean=Phoenix=Jean theory. The way I see it, she is not necessairly the bird itself, but she has natural acess to the force, which means that any Phoenix powers are a natural extension of Jean's baseline powers, and this is why it feels weird to me that you are denying her something that is basically ''Jean's birthright'', as I think Death once told her.

Classic X-Men #43

[PhoenixStudies]

I'm not playing by these rules anymore. Besides, Teen Jean demonstrates that the ability to absorb/channel psychic energies from others is a part of Jean's telepathic power set. If this ability doesn't discredit Exodus and others who can do it, why should it discredit Jean? So what if she can draw energy from Betsy's TP or Cable's TK or the Phoenix Force or even Cerebro/a?

[Ulfhammer]

Jean is only the host of the Phoenix Force sometimes. Jean isn't the one going around possessing Rachel, the Phoenix 5, Feron, etc. There were Phoenix Force hosts before Jean was even born. Jean states point blank in plain English that the Dark Phoenix was not her during CC's second run in the 2000s, but somebody else. All of this stuff you're talking about is nothing but wishful thinking and your own personal theories which have been debunked by decades of canon.

Look, now this thread is about Jean Grey without being possessed by that cosmic tweety bird and how she stands on her own against Emma. She's far Far FAR below Emma's power grade.

That's the point though. This whole thread is based on a false premise. Your arguing in many places that this or that example of Emma can't be used because she's not at full power, or some other excuse but your not extending that same courtesy to Jean. So by definition you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Again, what's the point? I could find any character and say they're more powerful than any other character because of some limitation or handicap that character was experiencing at the time. It's just not a valid comparison.

On the Jean=Phoenix I think you are confusing the Phoenix as a physical manifestation with the PF as a psionic power center. I blame Marvel for the ambiguity here as they have deeply overcomplicated this. The concept is that Jean is the physical manifestation of the PF but that does not proclude others from briefly gaining access to the psionic energy the PF provides. Technically all telepaths access the PF tangentially because it is the source of all psionic energy in the universe. The more prominant examples (Hope, Rachel, P5) are what I would consider fragments of the PF (for example what Emma still held onto in the JG solo) and if we must follow canon could easily be explained by the Shi'ar shattering the Phoenix into pieces pre-Endsong. To my knowledge this situation was never definitively resolved.

[ZNOP]

That's the point though. This whole thread is based on a false premise. Your arguing in many places that this or that example of Emma can't be used because she's not at full power, or some other excuse but your not extending that same courtesy to Jean. So by definition you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Again, what's the point? I could find any character and say they're more powerful than any other character because of some limitation or handicap that character was experiencing at the time. It's just not a valid comparison.

On the Jean=Phoenix I think you are confusing the Phoenix as a physical manifestation with the PF as a psionic power center. I blame Marvel for the ambiguity here as they have deeply overcomplicated this. The concept is that Jean is the physical manifestation of the PF but that does not proclude others from briefly gaining access to the psionic energy the PF provides. Technically all telepaths access the PF tangentially because it is the source of all psionic energy in the universe. The more prominant examples (Hope, Rachel, P5) are what I would consider fragments of the PF (for example what Emma still held onto in the JG solo) and if we must follow canon could easily be explained by the Shi'ar shattering the Phoenix into pieces pre-Endsong. To my knowledge this situation was never definitively resolved.

Hmm... Didn't the Avengers shatter the Phoenix Force?

[PhoenixStudies]

Hmm... Didn't the Avengers shatter the Phoenix Force?

Before that, in Endsong, the Shiar shattered it.

But yeah after Endsong, in AvX, Stark's machine shattered it in pieces.

No wonder Jean doesn't know who she is right now.

[PsychicHobo]

I thought it was general consensus that as far as raw power goes... Jean is more powerful than Emma by far. Skill wise though they are about even, with Emma maybe having the edge. As far as the battle within Xorna in BOTA goes, emma’s telepathy was broken and she used the cuckoos as a conduit who are weaker than she is. Not to mention when one goes down she loses a drastic amount of power to work with. Also the Teen Jeen battle is referenced a lot and I remember Cullen Bunn on his tumblr pointing to the fact that when the cosmic cube shard leaked into the astral field, it strengthend Cyclops and Jeen’s rapport and together they broke free of Emma who was also being talked down by Jeen. I do stand by the fact that Jean had at the very least was tapping into Phoenix’s power in New X-men. I honestly like both characters and think the OP is seriously incorrect about Jean being a “joke” compared to anyone as she is one of the best psis in the MU ALONG with Emma and I think it’s cool how they use their powers in different ways.

[Phoenixx9]

No, Jean has more power than Emma.

Emma has no edge in power or skill over Jean. But she sure wishes she did!

The "edge" some think Emma has is just her nasty personality. Not an edge most heroes would aspire to achieve.