Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[rutog98]

One more thing:

The reason we debate things on the boards is because we know that often times in the comics one character will be written down to prop up another or a character may be devalued for the sake of story progression. That's the reason on the boards the actual feats a character pulls off takes a higher priority than anything else. If an issue states than Jean is the more powerful than so-and-so, or some other such nonsense, that claim holds no credence unless she has the feats to back it up...and she doesn't have the feats in this instance when compared with Emma. Most of the rebuttals against my Emma arguments had to do with panels of somebody talking about how powerful Jean is because she has a serious lack of feats. Her limits have been defined in plenty of stories and they are far below Emma's feats.

[rutog98]

Here is a perfect example of the problem with claims about Jean's powers:

Notice in the scan below, it states that JEAN claims "no shields, natural or artificial can withstand her psychic powers..."
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bkplx8Vq7UR...CTGzTYhh=s1600

Now, earlier in the same issue, we get this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5o...UpiTwCpW=s1600

So, you see? I care about feats, not what "so and so" says about Jean's powers.

This needs to be quoted for truth because its important!

[Del torro]

This needs to be quoted for truth because its important!

except, you didn't include the scan where jean said the hideout of the bad guys has psi defenses stronger than the government building, and then proceeds to use her powers there to control 100s of people.

its a very common thing with jean, they first show her having trouble with a shield, then she breaks through it. like when she fought an army of demons in limbo, before she couldnt get past the psishields of just 3 demons, but late3 on was taking on an army. or when starhammer attacked the xmen. he use psi buffers so strongnthat jean and cable standing next to each other couldn't read communicate, yet later in the issue jeannbreaks the defenses and gives starhammer false memories.
their not going to have her immediately break the shields for the plot to move on. or wouldnt have been much of a story if jean mjndwiped starhammer immediately she saw him. in a previous post i listed different times jean broke through powerful psi shields, but youve only mentioned 1 for emma since.

all the scenes you posted of magneto taking out jean were prior to her letting loose with her powers. in those parts she was still holding back and when she stopped she started doing things like scanning the planet easily or destroying powerful psychic shields, so hee old feats against magneto don't count for a stronger version of her who broke his psi shields.

you havent said anything about Jeans ghost possessing emma and keeping her surpressed so that teen j3an could steal the phoenix from her. come to think of it, ot means that jeans ghost is stronger than a phoenix shard amped emma frost

[rutog98]

except, you didn't include the scan where jean said the hideout of the bad guys has psi defenses stronger than the government building, and then proceeds to use her powers there to control 100s of people.

its a very common thing with jean, they first show her having trouble with a shield, then she breaks through it. like when she fought an army of demons in limbo, before she couldnt get past the psishields of just 3 demons, but late3 on was taking on an army. or when starhammer attacked the xmen. he use psi buffers so strongnthat jean and cable standing next to each other couldn't read communicate, yet later in the issue jeannbreaks the defenses and gives starhammer false memories.
their not going to have her immediately break the shields for the plot to move on. or wouldnt have been much of a story if jean mjndwiped starhammer immediately she saw him. in a previous post i listed different times jean broke through powerful psi shields, but youve only mentioned 1 for emma since.

all the scenes you posted of magneto taking out jean were prior to her letting loose with her powers. in those parts she was still holding back and when she stopped she started doing things like scanning the planet easily or destroying powerful psychic shields, so hee old feats against magneto don't count for a stronger version of her who broke his psi shields.

you havent said anything about Jeans ghost possessing emma and keeping her surpressed so that teen j3an could steal the phoenix from her. come to think of it, ot means that jeans ghost is stronger than a phoenix shard amped emma frost

1) Where did Jean break through stronger shields than the ones in the government building?

2) Magneto was able to keep Xavier out of his mind with his willpower alone. No helmet and he didn't use his powers to jam Xavier's TP. Jean Grey is nothing compared to Xavier as a telepath. Xavier beats her in power, skill, and experience. Added to that is his helmet PLUS his ability to jam Jean. She is not breaking through all of that by herself. Magneto's defenses were simply ignored in that story.

3) I don't know anything about Jean's ghost possessing Emma. Did Emma try to resist her? Was Emma asleep when Jean's ghost took over her?

[Grey]

It will be interesting to see where they leave Jean upon her resurrection. During much of the 90's where she was most active without the Phoenix telepathy often wasn't written to be as interesting as it was in the Morrison era and after. For much of her written history Emma had an edge in the psychic department in terms of story usage since:

a.) She'd always embraced her abilities and all they could do, wheras Jean was cut off from them for a time and extremely wary of their potential upon their return. This stemmed from both her own fears and that of Xavier's which likely impressed on her. Notably, this is something Emma considered a diservice to Jean and something she took the opportunity to correct when she was tutoring young Jean.





Also...

b.) Emma generally always played by a less strict rulebook than adult Jean did. This left her the opportunity to be more creative with her powers in ways Jean may have been hesitant to.

But however Emma felt about Jean as a person, as time went on she greatly respected Jean's abilities. After maybe Xavier Jean was likely the only person Emma would consider a peer/rival in the telepathy department (though she'd likely never say it out loud).

Folks have already that referenced that second picture but the OP discards it as "plot induced stupidity". ALso since it's not a feat, It doesn't prove that Jean's more powerful (op's Words).

Thread title asks which is more powful... which is not the same as who has more
On panel feats. Emma herself says there that Jean's the most gifted psychic she's ever encountered.
I'm not sure how one decides that that's irrelevant to the thread title question.but apparently it's irrelevant.

[Omegarogue]

Well I think most of us have shown that Jean Gray is much superior to Emma, although it was not necessary that comics have always said that Emma is inferior, well inferior even to Rachel who is below her mother's level.

But the funniest thing is that baby Jean kicked Emma's ass, and is still arguing that if Emma is the level of Jean, I mean never ever XD.

[rutog98]

Folks have already that referenced that second picture but the OP discards it as "plot induced stupidity". ALso since it's not a feat, It doesn't prove that Jean's more powerful (op's Words).

Thread title asks which is more powful... which is not the same as who has more
On panel feats. Emma herself says there that Jean's the most gifted psychic she's ever encountered.
I'm not sure how one decides that that's irrelevant to the thread title question.but apparently it's irrelevant.

That scan doesn't count because that was the Phoenix Force who was wearing the form, personality, memories, etc. of Jean Grey. Note how Emma said that character killed her. That was a reference to Emma's fight with the Phoenix Force itself as it was nearing Dark Phoenix power levels. The Phoenix was draining her life force. I said that no feats are allowed where Jean's or Emma's powers are boosted by an outside source of power like the Phoenix Force, another telepath's powers added to their own, Cerebro, etc. Notice also how Emma says, "Jean killed me. The Phoenix killed me." In other words, its Jean boosted by the PF.

Jean's threat is she is a potential host to the PF whom the PF favors above all other potential hosts. Its not about her internal power anymore as it is her housing an external power (the PF).

And, yeah, when the power levels of various characters are frequently adjusted up and down according to the whims of the writers and the needs of a particular story, such random statements about one's power levels don't mean much if their feats and limitations are shown as being less than other characters they are said to be more powerful than.

For instance, throughout the 90s, Jean was called the most powerful psi after Xavier. However, her limitations were very well displayed throughout the decade. She couldn't penetrate Magneto's mental defenses even with a portion of Xavier's powers added to her own until Gambit threw an exploding card in Magneto's face thus distracting him which gave Jean and Xavier their window of opportunity to enter his mind. She lost BADLY to Exodus repeatedly. She failed miserably when she tried to penetrate Onslaught's mental defenses and this is when Onslaught only had access to a portion of Xavier's powers. He hadn't even yet absorbed Franklin Richards or X-Man. She was so weak compared to Legion that she would not even attempt to fight him in psychic combat. Stryfe humiliated her as a psi. Then we have Shadow King whose only rival was Xavier. Shaman X-Man came along and dwarfed Jean in power. The White Queen had much more powerful feats than Jean Grey. In spite of all of this, Jean was continually called the second most powerful telepath after Xavier. It became a running joke because anybody who read the stories objectively and wasn't a rabid Jean fanboy knew it wasn't true.

This is why where Jean is concerned, particularly, (but I apply this to every character in all honesty), one has to go by feats. For example, if a book says Jean is more powerful than Xavier (which no issue even remotely stated this as he was consistently shown and stated to be way above her in terms of power and skill) and we see him do feats like contact Galactus as Galactus stands on a moon of Skrull World while Xavier is planetside. Then, on top of this, while this great distance away, Xavier reaches into the mind of all 8 BILLIONS Skrull minds across the world at once and channels their collective feelings to Galactus in one psychic move (Xavier literally did all of this), we cannot just automatically give that feat to Jean when Jean has no feats near that and has failed at much lesser tasks. We would have to say in spite of what some issues state about Jean being the most powerful psi, Xavier is actually much stronger than she.

[Omegarogue]

Well to finish, any version of Jean, beat and humiliates Emma.





If even Jean teenage version, which is less powerful than the adult is better than Emma.








Thank you.

[lurkerforyears]

I like Emma more than Jean, even though I also like Jean, but not for power level reasons. I tend to dislike super strong characters.
I think the 3 strongest telepathy are Xavier, Shadow King and Quentin.
Emma and the rest are a step below them.
Jean is definitely more powerful than Emma, because Jean can handle the Phoenix, unlike Emma.
But that may come more from Jeans telekinesis.
I think 2000s Emma was a stronger telepath than 90s Jean. 90s Jean was clearly weaker than Exodus.

[rutog98]

I like Emma more than Jean, even though I also like Jean, but not for power level reasons. I tend to dislike super strong characters.
I think the 3 strongest telepathy are Xavier, Shadow King and Quentin.
Emma and the rest are a step below them.
Jean is definitely more powerful than Emma, because Jean can handle the Phoenix, unlike Emma.
But that may come more from Jeans telekinesis.
I think 2000s Emma was a stronger telepath than 90s Jean. 90s Jean was clearly weaker than Exodus.

I agree with everything in this post save for Jean being more powerful than Emma because she can host the PF. Hosting the PF had nothing to do about the power level of the host so much as it did about having the genetics that made one a suitable host. That said, as of AvX, anybody, including Emma, can host the PF now. Its no longer something that only a select few can do.

[lurkerforyears]

I agree with everything in this post save for Jean being more powerful than Emma because she can host the PF. Hosting the PF had nothing to do about the power level of the host so much as it did about having the genetics that made one a suitable host. That said, as of AvX, anybody, including Emma, can host the PF now. Its no longer something that only a select few can do.

Jean and Rachel can handle it without getting corrupted and becoming Dark Phoenix, Emma like all the p5 who got it by accident, can't.

[Omegarogue]

I agree with everything in this post save for Jean being more powerful than Emma because she can host the PF. Hosting the PF had nothing to do about the power level of the host so much as it did about having the genetics that made one a suitable host. That said, as of AvX, anybody, including Emma, can host the PF now. Its no longer something that only a select few can do.

Jean is more powerful than Emma without PF and we have all been showing you.

And currently when a teenager Jean Grey is superior to Emma, I think that I no longer discuss it.

Jean even without the PF is much more powerful than Emma and by far, and would not lose against her ever.

[rutog98]

Deleted post...

[rutog98]

Jean is more powerful than Emma without PF and we have all been showing you.

And currently when a teenager Jean Grey is superior to Emma, I think that I no longer discuss it.

Jean even without the PF is much more powerful than Emma and by far, and would not lose against her ever.

You know what? I just thought about something.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bkplx8Vq7UR...CTGzTYhh=s1600

^^^ That attack represents the sum totality of Revolution Jean's TP in a single, focused attack (and this is Betsy's powers added to Jean's, BTW). Notice the attack even knocks Jean flat when she pulls it off. That said, its this mindblast even strong enough to kill anybody.

Now, lets compare it to Emma's mindblast:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1dyVMonM0n-...uOrqFIqe=s1600

^^^Emma threw a mindblast strong enough to literally rip apart the minds of two Phalanxes wearing the forms of Caliban and Ororo.

Yup, Emma is definitely more powerful than Jean, even Revolution Jean. This is just one more piece of evidence. On top of it, the issue did not say this was Emma's full-powered attack like the other instance said about Jean. Sure, Jean can kill somebody telepathically, but she has to do it by turning off your mind. She can't throw a mindblast strong enough to get the job done through raw power. That power level goes to Emma!

[WallStreeter]

I like Emma more than Jean, even though I also like Jean, but not for power level reasons. I tend to dislike super strong characters.
I think the 3 strongest telepathy are Xavier, Shadow King and Quentin.
Emma and the rest are a step below them.
Jean is definitely more powerful than Emma, because Jean can handle the Phoenix, unlike Emma.
But that may come more from Jeans telekinesis.
I think 2000s Emma was a stronger telepath than 90s Jean. 90s Jean was clearly weaker than Exodus.

Rachel Grey has beaten Quentin Quire. Jean Grey has contained Xavier's mind within her own. Jeen has beaten baby Xavier. Certain people here have a bias against female characters.

The Shadow King has twice lost to Psylocke.