Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[rutog98]

Rachel Grey has beaten Quentin Quire. Jean Grey has contained Xavier's mind within her own. Jeen has beaten baby Xavier. Certain people here have a bias against female characters.

The Shadow King has twice lost to Psylocke.

So, Emma beat Rachel and Rachel beat QQ, hmmmm....

Also, in New X-Men #120, Emma beat Martha, yet in Wolverine and the X-Men, Martha beat Rachel. Hmmm.....

I know in the 90s that Betsy didn't beat SK in psi-combat. That's a misleading lie.

Jeen beat a featless Xavier. Big deal. 616 Xavier is the one that has the feats.

When Jean contained Xavier in her mind, not only did she have the Phoenix Force, but she was also being boosted by Cerebra, which amplifies your powers 10 fold. I said any feats done with the Phoenix Force or with Cerebro/Cerebra don't count.

I know some people have a bias against female characters, so stop trying to devalue Emma.

[rutog98]

1960's Jean mind-blasted Juggernaut through his helmet, a feat which even though much-valued Xavier could not perform!

1960's Jean even went up against Magneto blasting him mentally through his helmet, but he sneakily had employed gas which knocked out Jean.

Jean does have mental bolts, always has, always will but she just chooses not to destroy someone's mind, unlike Emma who has no scruples, never has, never will.

Magneto's mental defenses were increased big time under Claremont. Given Xavier's feats during and since CC, which are FAR above Jean's power level, the moment Magneto was able to stalemate Xavier's TP attack automatically put him beyond the realm of Jean's powers to beat telepathically. Furthermore, Magneto also learned to use his powers to jam Jean's TP PLUS he has a helmet which offers a measure of protection against TP. He could use all of these defenses in tandem if he wanted to. Only through PIS will Jean get through Magneto's defenses without the PF boosting her BIG TIME. Heck, Magneto defeated Phoenix Force Jean Grey for crying out loud!

I never said that Jean doesn't have mental bolts (of course she does), I was just saying that they were not on the level of Emma's.

[rutog98]

All your reasoning is wrong, Emma has NEVER been more powerful than Jean, because she is not even at the level of Rachel's power, says Emma herself.

In the Morrison stage before being re-empowered with the PF Jean >>> Emma.

And currently, we have a Teen Jean without the PF, and Jean surpassed Emma in XMBlue9, can you contradict that? not true ?, OK, and we know that adult Jean >>>> teen Jean and thanks to blue we know that Teen jean >>>>>>>>>>>>> old Emma lol.

I don't read X-Men Blue. All I know is you are making all of these claims, but I have yet to see scans of what you say.

That said, Jean started being boosted by the PF in New X-Men issue 120. So, any feat she did during Morrison's run after that point doesn't count because she had the PF. Does anyone have that X-Men Wizard Special with that interview by Morrison? Also, in that special, it had a mock battle where Emma was beating Jean in psychic combat, but ended up losing to Jean because of the intervention of the Phoenix Force. Anyone have scans of that? I used to own it, but I can't find it. I hope I didn't lose it (I lost a lot of my collection in a move a while back).

[rutog98]

I'm not rutog, and I do believe Jean is more powerful than Emma, Phoenix or no. I just wouldn't use alternative series that aren't exactly main continuity.

No, you're not me, I actually tell the truth between Emma and Jean without any bias. You are failing to see reality, but I'm helping you out by telling you the facts!

[rutog98]

Because they're talking about Dark Phoenix Saga. Which still happened thanks to external forces aka Emma and Mastermind. It doesn't erase all the time in which Jean did fine as the Phoenix host while Emma instantly went loose when it was her.



This is a Jean vs Emma thread and he was talking about when Jean managed to go through Juggernaut and Xavier didn't on the '60s, because OP has been asking for Jean feats. This doesn't have anything to do with the topic all.

He's bringing up Psylocke getting through Juggernaut's helmet to show how his helmet, while it offers protection against TP, is not as great as people think for somebody like Betsy to get through it.

Well, Rutog only deems Jean's green mini-dress Marvel Girl era and early Gold Team era acceptable for this thread.

Which Jean eras do you find acceptable?

I only deem the instances where Jean's powers are not boosted by Cerebro, the addition of Psylocke's TP to her own, or the PF null and void in this thread. You guys are trying to use instances where Jean is boosted by the PF, Cerebra, (or both, like when she held Xavier's persona in her head), and Psylocke's power to win this debate because Jean is sorry without those things. There, I said it.

[rutog98]

The Cuckoos especially together are no slouch seeing as they're clone daughters of Emma herself. PLUS Emma had a shard of the phoenix in her mind, so it's not like she was lacking in power level.

Individually, they are much weaker than Emma, though. Not only that, but collectively, they are still much less developed than Emma.

[RAWRlrus]

The Cuckoos especially together are no slouch seeing as they're clone daughters of Emma herself. PLUS Emma had a shard of the phoenix in her mind, so it's not like she was lacking in power level.

Except one of the major plot points of Bendis' run on Uncanny was that the teachers (Cyclops, Emma, Magik, Magneto) couldn't use their powers anywhere near where they should be able to.

[JasonEsta]

I've never seen Emma as a top 5 telepath ever. Jean is ahead of her but Jean isn't really ultra powerful either. She's been embarrassed by Stryfe, Exodus owned her all the time, Nate Grey always overwhelmed her, Xavier....when Nate snd Xavier got powered down, she might have went up rankings but I don't think she can match a Shadow King either.

[JasonEsta]

Magneto's mental defenses were increased big time under Claremont. Given Xavier's feats during and since CC, which are FAR above Jean's power level, the moment Magneto was able to stalemate Xavier's TP attack automatically put him beyond the realm of Jean's powers to beat telepathically. Furthermore, Magneto also learned to use his powers to jam Jean's TP PLUS he has a helmet which offers a measure of protection against TP. He could use all of these defenses in tandem if he wanted to. Only through PIS will Jean get through Magneto's defenses without the PF boosting her BIG TIME. Heck, Magneto defeated Phoenix Force Jean Grey for crying out loud!

I never said that Jean doesn't have mental bolts (of course she does), I was just saying that they were not on the level of Emma's.

The 60s are over. And Magneto usually stops Jean in one panel...Helmut or not.

[PhoenixStudies]

I'm not sure that Jean acquired Betsy's telepathic power added to her own or just acquired Betsy's specialized telepathic abilities--shadow form and being able to create a physical manifestation of her psychic power, in Jean's case the raptor rather than Betsy's psychic knife.

The power switch was most explicitly mentioned in X-Men Black Sun. Jean says she lost her telekinetic power to Betsy and gained Betsy's specialized telepathic abilities including her psychic affinity for shadows.

However, later the power switch would be ignored and effectively retconned anyways. In some X-Men and early X-Treme issues, Claremont refers to Betsy's telekinetic ability as her nascent power as if it was her own emerging power. At first she has heavy lifting TK, but not the fine motor control that Jean was known for. Jean's telekinesis naturally returns in New X-Men #114. During Reload, Rachel somehow had the shadow astral form that Jean had received from Betsy.

After Betsy dies, she is later recreated/reborn by Jamie. Now her TK is even stronger and she has fine motor control as well. After being put briefly in her original body in the Sisterhood story, Betsy regained her telepathic abilities. Then some writers weakened her TK or tried to act like she could only use TP or TK at a time. Now she is a very powerful TP and TK but heavily relies on psychic weapons.

Does anyone say that Betsy's TK feats from Revolution and X-Treme don't count because originally her TK came from Jean? Does anyone say that Rachel had Betsy's TP added to her own during Reload because she had the specialized abilities that Jean acquired from Betsy during this time? Since Rachel had the Phoenix-Eye-Tattoo and fiery effects during Reload does that mean that her powers were boosted by the Phoenix Force?

It seems to me that whatever happened between Jean, Betsy, and the Shadow King---it shut down Jean's TK and caused Betsy to learn how to use TK and Jean how to perform the specialized abilities that Betsy could do. Later, Jean's TK returned and Betsy's TP returned. There was never a story where Jean got her TK back from Betsy or Betsy getting TP back from Jean. It was never explained how Rachel got the shadow form. However, when she lost the Blue Phoenix echo, the shadow and Phoenix Eye Tattoo left with it.

[sungila]

It's not a contest. Emma and Jean are different people and as they develop and change they are themselves not who they were and not who they will be outside the paneled (pooling) moment. It's also a matter of who and/or what they are connecting to, tapping into, communing with. The 'other' is involved in the expression of empathy. This is a power that works in consort with many, even if that many (Legion) is one.

I find Emma's power is often expressed more personally and 'realistically' than Jean's. Her power has a more human voice and to me, is more definable as Emma's own. I am hoping that with this resurrection Jean will more greatly define her unique power as Rachel has and Emma has through struggles, compromise and conflict.

[ExodusCloak]

Magneto's mental defenses were increased big time under Claremont. Given Xavier's feats during and since CC, which are FAR above Jean's power level, the moment Magneto was able to stalemate Xavier's TP attack automatically put him beyond the realm of Jean's powers to beat telepathically. Furthermore, Magneto also learned to use his powers to jam Jean's TP PLUS he has a helmet which offers a measure of protection against TP. He could use all of these defenses in tandem if he wanted to. Only through PIS will Jean get through Magneto's defenses without the PF boosting her BIG TIME. Heck, Magneto defeated Phoenix Force Jean Grey for crying out loud!

I never said that Jean doesn't have mental bolts (of course she does), I was just saying that they were not on the level of Emma's.

That telepathic bolt of Emmas blew up Frost Industries

[rutog98]

Okay, I think I have a better way to explain this mindblast comparison thing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bkplx8Vq7UR...CTGzTYhh=s1600

Notice in the scan it says this attack represents Jean's powers honed to the sharpest edge. The scan also states its like the mind of her victim is being torn by real claws. This attack took everything out of Revolution Jean to pull off and it knocked her silly.

Now, in the following scans, Emma's mindblast did FAR more damage and it wasn't even stated to be the focus of her full power to pull it off:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1dyVMonM0n-...uOrqFIqe=s1600

Emma's mindblast literally tore the minds of those two Phalanxes in half while's Jean's attack merely scratched the brains of her foes. Notice as well that Emma doesn't pass out after throwing her mental attack here like Jean did.

Now, going back to New X-Men #139, not only does Jean tell Emma, "Its just you and me and the Phoenix," in other words saying right there that she is being possessed by the Phoenix Force:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPu...b1hyonPR=s1600

Look at this scan from the same issue:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1zEW5cNnwdP...FaYZ_9Br=s1600

Phoenix Force Jean Grey says, "I promise I won't throw big lightning bolts of psychic electricity at you this time."

They only fought one other time prior to this and that was during the Dark Phoenix Saga where the Phoenix Force, in the guise of Jean Grey, was at near-Dark Phoenix levels and fought Emma.

In other words, this is further proof that Jean was possessed by the Phoenix Force at this point as Jean stated very plainly in the earlier scan. That's the only way there could have been a previous encounter which was shown to be Emma vs. the Phoenix Force.

[rutog98]

That telepathic bolt of Emmas blew up Frost Industries

Exactly, now compare this to Uncanny X-Men #383 where Revolution Jean was captured by animated that metal chair Sketch sent at her. She said if she had her TK powers that she could get out of that situation in a shot, but that she was defenseless against it since all she had was TP.

Lets also add to this feat the instance in Generation X #18 where Emma takes down Generation X with mental manipulations. When Monet challenges her to a fight without mind games, but physically, Emma channels all of the ambient psionic energy in the atmosphere into a psionic lightning bolt and knocks Monet flat out.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Q_M1wH1B5_u...AJu0ctxg=s1600
http://actionagogo.com/wp-content/up...15/02/genx.jpg

[silence.]