Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[silence.]

Both Rachel and Kid omega have been confirmed as more powerful telepaths than Emma, including Sking and Exodus, I do not know why raise Emma to a level she does not have.

She has only had more time on screen, and is very skilled and trained with her powers, but it does not make her more powerful.

Like I said I'm combining power with skill when assessing this as the question was 'superior telepath'. I didn't disagree that Rachel and KO have more raw power, the post you're quoting states that.
But we've seen her best Rachel with the explanation given being 'skill' + she's held off the PF itself longer than Quentin, making a better recovery, suggesting it's down to her skill. If we're talking superior telepaths as a category, raw power can't be the only reasoning. A great singer isn't assessed just by the size of their range, but their timbre and what they can do with their voice. By that metric Jean probably still outranks Emma, in the way Rachel would if she had Jean's skill and imagination to back up her raw power.

[PhoenixStudies]

Jean's global telepathy feat counts, because she was pushing herself and increasing her power levels. She was embracing her power and potential. This was right before she manifested the Phoenix Effect again. It was unclear whether it was her own Phoenix effect or if she was re-connecting with the Force.

I just find it ridiculous that you are saying that late 90's doesn't count, Revolution doesn't count, New X-Men, and Endsong (even when the Phoenix Force wasn't in her body) doesn't count.

Jean didn't have telepathy during the early original years and didn't have telepathy through most of X-Factor. So basically, rutog, you will only recognize Green Mini dress-Jean era and early to mid-90s Gold Team era Jean?

If you have to handicap Jean this much to defend your argument, you have already lost.

[WallStreeter]

I like how you conveniently left out the fact that Emma's powers were broken at the time and she was using the Cuckoos as a conduit for any power she could muster up.

Each Cuckoo is a clone of Emma Frost. So Xorn defeated FOUR Emma Frost. Mama's powers weren't up to speed, but her daughters powers were just fine and Xorn took them down savagely.

So yeah, we have seen Jean without the Phoenix beat Emma.

Jeen beat Emma in X-Men blue and freed Cyke from Emma's control.

Ghost Jean possessed and immobilized Emma Frost.

[rutog98]

Jean's global telepathy feat counts, because she was pushing herself and increasing her power levels. She was embracing her power and potential. This was right before she manifested the Phoenix Effect again. It was unclear whether it was her own Phoenix effect or if she was re-connecting with the Force.

I just find it ridiculous that you are saying that late 90's doesn't count, Revolution doesn't count, New X-Men, and Endsong (even when the Phoenix Force wasn't in her body) doesn't count.

Jean didn't have telepathy during the early original years and didn't have telepathy through most of X-Factor. So basically, rutog, you will only recognize Green Mini dress-Jean era and early to mid-90s Gold Team era Jean?

If you have to handicap Jean this much to defend your argument, you have already lost.

Revolution does not count because she had Psylocke's powers added to her own. Psylocke gained Jean's TK while Jean gained Psylocke's TP which was added to her own TP power. I said in this thread that no feats count if another psi's powers are combined with Emma's or Jean's for a feat.

Even if you want to give Jean that "global" scan feat, it still doesn't compare with all of what Emma has done. All I'm saying is without the Phoenix Force or the psi of another telepath added to his own power, while Jean is powerful, she's nothing compared to Emma.

[rutog98]

Each Cuckoo is a clone of Emma Frost. So Xorn defeated FOUR Emma Frost. Mama's powers weren't up to speed, but her daughters powers were just fine and Xorn took them down savagely.

So yeah, we have seen Jean without the Phoenix beat Emma.

Jeen beat Emma in X-Men blue and freed Cyke from Emma's control.

Ghost Jean possessed and immobilized Emma Frost.

Those Cuckoos are not equally powerful to Emma. Together, they rank as one of the most powerful psis on the planet, but alone, they are just 4 powerful telepaths. Emma alone is one of the most powerful psis on the planet.

[WallStreeter]

1) Jean did not have her psychic shields in that Onslaught thing. Her powers were cut off. She was able to resist him via her willpower. It should also be noted in this story that Onslaught did not have access to Xavier's full power and this was before he absorbed Franklin and X-Man. Furthermore, in this story, Jean tried to break through Onslaught's shields before he cut her off from her powers and she failed MISERABLY. He was way too strong for her and this is when he only had a portion of Xavier's powers (Xavier was resisting him from within).

2) In that issue with Gamesmaster, he had taken control over the population of Salem Center or Westchester or some such town/city. It took most of his power to accomplish that, IIRC. Also, the issue stated that both Emma and Selene were strong enough psis to take over that city/town. Gamesmaster had locked Jean away prior to pulling that stunt as he viewed her as a threat if he tried to take over the town while having to fight her.

3) Any psi can suppress Bruce if Hulk is not resisting. That's a non-feat. He willingly opened his mind to her. This is a non-feat.

Jean is strong, but nowhere near Emma.

Emma had just a throw away part in the films. Not important enough to the franchise as a hole. Say it again Rutog98, Jean/Phoenix is the top X-woman. Oh, Xorn/Jean took down four Emma Frosts (Emma and her Cuckoos) during BoA. Jeen more recently beat Emma and freed Cyclops in X-Men blue. Emma lost to Jeen. LOL. And Ghost Jean possessed Emma Frost and immobilized her. So we have even a DEAD Jean beating Emma without the Phoenix.

[LordAllMIghty]

Jean is more powerful.

Emma comes in a close second.

[stormphoenix]

Honestly, I can see Emma taking number 1. And Jean has performed why she should be number 1 as well. Both ladies AND Psylocke all 3 are NO pushovers.

But for me my personal opinion it goes:
Jean
Emma
Psylocke

[LordAllMIghty]

Honestly, I can see Emma taking number 1. And Jean has performed why she should be number 1 as well. Both ladies AND Psylocke all 3 are NO pushovers.

But for me my personal opinion it goes:
Jean
Emma
Psylocke

Agreed. Emma is powerful but Jean been said to be the second most powerful telepathy after Xaiver.

[Omegarogue]

Each Cuckoo is a clone of Emma Frost. So Xorn defeated FOUR Emma Frost. Mama's powers weren't up to speed, but her daughters powers were just fine and Xorn took them down savagely.

So yeah, we have seen Jean without the Phoenix beat Emma.

Jeen beat Emma in X-Men blue and freed Cyke from Emma's control.

Ghost Jean possessed and immobilized Emma Frost.

Yes, Jean is far superior, even the teen version, much older the adult version.

[Disciple of Redd]

I'd say there was a struggle to separate them long before Scemma was a thing.

Phoenix-Jean is ridiculously overpowered, it's kinda important to the story that we don't think the antagonist of the storyline should've been disposed of the second someone sent Jean a text telling her to sort it out before lunch.
Also adding the cosmic chicken to Jean's story has lead to a circular character arc. I'm dying for a Jean story that will actually showcase and develop her, and not the Phoenix.

To be honest, any TK should be able to reach over and snap a leg or two to get your average enemy to behave. Jean just chillin' as Phoenix is canonically killable by Mags. Sure, when they get ridiculous she can reverse time or alter timelines, but the solution is to not make that an everyday thing, just like they don't let Tks pummel enemies into submission while looking at their nails, even though they could.

It was never about power, but prestige. They wanted to tell stories about others getting the Phoenix separate from Jean.

Storm could be just as ridiculous as Phoenix battle-wise, if they wanted her to.

If Mags wasn't a showy idiot, he could probably kill everyone else in a half-day too.

[rutog98]

Both Rachel and Kid omega have been confirmed as more powerful telepaths than Emma, including Sking and Exodus, I do not know why raise Emma to a level she does not have.

She has only had more time on screen, and is very skilled and trained with her powers, but it does not make her more powerful.

Oh, please, Rachel loses almost every psi-battle she's in. She's lost to Selene 3 times, she's lost to Emma, she lost to Exodus (even when a whole team of X-Men were helping her), and more.


Now lets see how each of these two ladies fare against Exodus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Oea-IHEKLMn...imcj4q9K=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Hu8B4cEDNt5...yw_eUrNc=s1600

and later, Jean won't even attempt to engage him on the psychic plane after she got whupped alongside Crystal, Wanda, and Peitro earlier:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/hUuokB92VnG...vLoIX74u=s1600

Look at how she just stands there and allows Exodus to beat Pietro, mind attack Rogue, who wasn't even there, etc. She was nothing to Exodus.

And then he goes around through the story carrying these four, including Jean, in a TK grip.

Notice its Xavier who has to step in (as he is the most powerful psi on the planet) while Jean just sits there scared of Exodus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GU6LPa9n3n_...uK945o54=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/OuSNJ0ScIH4...3LcjSz_0=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/KoimHnXdd5B...Tu71WFga=s1600

Here, while Exodus is distracted by fighting Holocaust, Jean attempts to establish contact with Exodus and he effortlessly expels her out of his mind:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...rougherhl4.jpg

Note how Jean goes collapsing to the ground after Exodus throws her out of his mind like she's nothing.

Here, Emma stalemates Exodus:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...11-exodus1.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...1cfb1971_o.jpg

Note how Emma is such a powerful foe for Exodus that he can't do anything else while fighting her. His sole focus has to be on her, yet Jean without the PF is a joke to him.

Emma Frost>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey

Now, lets see how these two ladies fare against psi-blocking technology:

Also, we all know that Dark Beast would have psi-blocking tech far greater than that of the Russian government.

So, here is Revloution Jean (who had Psylocke's TP added to her own) being stopped by Russian government psi-blocking tech:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5o...UpiTwCpW=s1600

And here is Emma smashing her way through DOZENS of Dark Beast's psi-blocking tech:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DFh-Fz0gVo9...oCqzZT6u=s1600

[johnnysv75]

I would say: it depends on the writer. ;-)

On a serious note: in the mid to late 90s Jean was always written as the world’s second most powerful telepath. (With Xavier as the most powerful.) After Onslaught it was stated that she was the most powerful.

Exodus hasn’t been consistently written. In the beginning they wrote him like he was some kind of god. That has changed. I would think that a resurrected Jean would beat him to a bloody pulp.

I just re-read Revolution. I may be wrong, but I didn’t come across a reference that clearly stated that Jean had Betsy’s telepathy. It just said that she had lost her telekinesis. Wikipedia may say something else, but I don’t think it’s there in the comics.

Before Logan killed Jean, she wasn’t the Phoenix Force’s host during Morrison’s run. I am reading it now, and they clearly state that it is her testing her own limits. They constantly talk about the terrible potential that Jean herself has.

Sometimes I wish that we could undo the retcon. In the original run, Phoenix was Jean’s true potential. There was no cosmic force, it was all Jean. All the retcons have turned the Phoenix into a joke. Bendis did clever things with Jeen’s powers, also hinting that Jean Grey’s true potential is that of the Phoenix’s level - or beyond. I wish they will go with that when Jean is resurrected.

I say what so many others are saying: Jean has more raw power, but Emma has more skill. They are evenly matched, with Jean having a slight edge.

[Muffinman]

Jean is certainly taking home the trophy here.

I do find it odd that Rachel looses so many psi battles when she is considered to be immensely powerful. Gurl needs to get it together

[Del torro]

i feel jean is obviously above Emma in telepathy.
in endsong, Jean beats a phoenix empowered emma
jean beat emma in Morrison's run
in Jean grey solo, ghost jean easily possessed emma and suppressed her
teen jean beat emma amped by the cosmic cube
xorn jean beat emma using the cuckoos and teen jean as batteries


jean didn't become the phoenix in Morrison's run until she died in the sun. all the feats she had then are still hers (she was manifesting the Phoenix effect as she had been since operation zero tolerance, kelly/seagles run, and revolution ). its been confirmed by marvel recently, ill find the scan and post later.

its possible to show the Phoenix effect without being possessed by the Phoenix as shown by rachel and hope. just because jean was talking to the phoenix doesnt mean she was possessed by it (teen jean in her solo was talking to and having visions of the phoenix but wasnt possessed ).
if jean was Phoenix in Morrison's runm she wouldnt have had trouble flying in space and getting close to the sun would have made her stronger, not killed her.

the scans with exodus, on avalon jean never attempted to attack him, she wanted to ask him to stop fighting. in genosha he was holding a little girl hostage to prevent jean, Crystal, quicksilver and Scarlett witch from attacking him. plus this was the weaker version of Jean before she stopped holding back her powers afte OZT, so she vastly improved after this. so, yeah, feats from a weaker form of jean wont show the status of her most recent version.

for Revolution, the only thing they said jean got from psylocke was a shadow astral form (X-Men dark sun) they never specifically said jeans powers were amplified. the scan being posted of the Russian building with strong psi defnses, in the same issue, the xteam enters the enemys buildings and jean comments that the psy defenses there are stronger than that of the russian building. she then proceeds to control 100s of people in that building, to keep up illusions that fool and confuse computers, and keep the xmen connected, so basically, if she wanted to she could have broken the shields in the government building. especially since revolution had jean breaking all kinds of psi defenses and it being said she was strong enough to overcome any form of psi defence both natural and artificial and has better feats of breaking psi defenses than emma

Jeans feats from seagle and Kelly's run are her own, and not the phoenix. as i said before, jean was holding back her powers up to OZT, after she and scott left to retire in alaske, she stopped holding back and started manifesting a phoenix effect when using hee power's and she consistently did this all the way through up to new xmen. so her feats have no context of phoenix empowerment.

Jean has astral projected to a pocket universe
sensed battles happening in other dimensions
scanned the planet searching for Xavier
was a threat to gamemaster, a omnipath who is always connected to all minds on earth
she doesnt have all the flashy feats that emma got in the early 2000s, but the few she has stand up.