Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[rutog98]

I would say: it depends on the writer. ;-)

On a serious note: in the mid to late 90s Jean was always written as the world’s second most powerful telepath. (With Xavier as the most powerful.) After Onslaught it was stated that she was the most powerful.

Exodus hasn’t been consistently written. In the beginning they wrote him like he was some kind of god. That has changed. I would think that a resurrected Jean would beat him to a bloody pulp.

I just re-read Revolution. I may be wrong, but I didn’t come across a reference that clearly stated that Jean had Betsy’s telepathy. It just said that she had lost her telekinesis. Wikipedia may say something else, but I don’t think it’s there in the comics.

Before Logan killed Jean, she wasn’t the Phoenix Force’s host during Morrison’s run. I am reading it now, and they clearly state that it is her testing her own limits. They constantly talk about the terrible potential that Jean herself has.

Sometimes I wish that we could undo the retcon. In the original run, Phoenix was Jean’s true potential. There was no cosmic force, it was all Jean. All the retcons have turned the Phoenix into a joke. Bendis did clever things with Jeen’s powers, also hinting that Jean Grey’s true potential is that of the Phoenix’s level - or beyond. I wish they will go with that when Jean is resurrected.

I say what so many others are saying: Jean has more raw power, but Emma has more skill. They are evenly matched, with Jean having a slight edge.

Jean was stated in the 90s to be second to Xavier, however, that statement was never true. She was a constant joke whenever she and Exodus crossed paths. Shadow King, Stryfe, and Legion were also much more powerful than she (though they only showed up once every blue moon). Then you had Emma Frost who had much more impressive feats than Jean Grey, and then we also got Shaman X-Man, who was FAR stronger than Jean.

Jean is a joke compared to Emma without the Phoenix Force boosting her power or some other kind of external boost. As you can see in this thread, the Jean supporters only have rhetoric and feats where Jean's powers are boosted by the PF or by the addition of Betsy's TP. I have posted feat after feat for Emma clearly showing her to be FAR superior to Jean in every way when Jean is not being boosted by an external source of power.

[johnnysv75]

Jean was stated in the 90s to be second to Xavier, however, that statement was never true. She was a constant joke whenever she and Exodus crossed paths. Shadow King, Stryfe, and Legion were also much more powerful than she (though they only showed up once every blue moon). Then you had Emma Frost who had much more impressive feats than Jean Grey, and then we also got Shaman X-Man, who was FAR stronger than Jean.

Jean is a joke compared to Emma without the Phoenix Force boosting her power or some other kind of external boost. As you can see in this thread, the Jean supporters only have rhetoric and feats where Jean's powers are boosted by the PF or by the addition of Betsy's TP. I have posted feat after feat for Emma clearly showing her to be FAR superior to Jean in every way when Jean is not being boosted by an external source of power.

You haven’t actually shown feat after feat. You have repeated the same feats. And you ignore it when people tell you that some of your facts may be wrong. I love Del torro’s reply above.

And even though I say that Jean is more powerful, I would never call Emma a joke. Please stop calling Jean a joke. It is disrespectful.

[Del torro]

as i said, revolution doesnt say anything about Jeanw powers being amped, they just say that she gained psylockes astral form (which rachel somehow gained too, just because).
also, i saw something about emma having better feats against psi defenses, when its been canonically said that jeans powers can desteoy any psi shield artificial or natural.
shes gotten through magnetos helmet, emmas diamond form, mandroid armour psi defenses, neo (part computer brains with psi defenses), juggernauts helmet, gotten into hulks mind and suppressed him back to banner, hightech psi denses in russia, seeing through cyphers psychic immunity that emma and the cuckoo's couldn't.

i think jean has better feats

[rutog98]

as i said, revolution doesnt say anything about Jeanw powers being amped, they just say that she gained psylockes astral form (which rachel somehow gained too, just because).
also, i saw something about emma having better feats against psi defenses, when its been canonically said that jeans powers can desteoy any psi shield artificial or natural.
shes gotten through magnetos helmet, emmas diamond form, mandroid armour psi defenses, neo (part computer brains with psi defenses), juggernauts helmet, gotten into hulks mind and suppressed him backto banner, hightech psi denses in russia, seeing through cyphers psychic immunity that emma and the cuckoo's couldn't.

i think jean jas better feats

No, she gained Psylocke's telepathy and Betsy gained her TK.

Jean getting into Magneto's head is pure PIS.

Here, Magneto harnesses his magnetic powers to jam Jean's telepathy rendering her completely useless:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/8iQJlib7KhN...cKF6muVG=s1600

Here, we see Magneto, through willpower alone, stalemate a TP assault from Xavier:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/iwcxJfumk_v...vylM34YB=s1600

Xavier is MUCH more powerful and MUCH more skilled than a non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey.

Here, we seen Magneto beat Phoenix Force Jean Grey (her powers were scaled back in this story to rival Xavier's):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-axQl7T_rpY...ZSQWjSoU=s1600
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...en01817rd4.jpg

Here, when most of Xavier's powers was being used to work a suit that enabled him to walk, he added the remainder of his psi to Jean's full telepathic power. Even with Jean's full power combined with a portion of Xavier's, PLUS Xavier instructing her, they could not get into Magneto's head until he was distracted by Gambit throwing an exploding card in his face:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/F6SBRf5hkfS...8mfqA2dx=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7oC1VROEpvP...sEfdnhBI=s1600
Then on top of all of this, he gained a helmet later on that has psi-blocking tech built into it. There is no way Jean is getting through all of that without some kind of PIS or unless she catches him off-guard, or unless he is distracted.

[RAWRlrus]

To be honest, any TK should be able to reach over and snap a leg or two to get your average enemy to behave. Jean just chillin' as Phoenix is canonically killable by Mags. Sure, when they get ridiculous she can reverse time or alter timelines, but the solution is to not make that an everyday thing, just like they don't let Tks pummel enemies into submission while looking at their nails, even though they could.

How many people are just able to inherently ignore a TK? How many people have technology that prevents a TK from being effective? TKs, like the Phoenix Force are extremely powerful and like the Phoenix force, should be able to solve most issues by themselves. But Marvel is trying to limit what the OP characters are able to do, and unlike most TKs, they're able to remove the Phoenix from a host without making the character totally irrelevant.

[hartttt]

Emma. she was usually more confident in her powers than Jean

[johnnysv75]

No, she gained Psylocke's telepathy and Betsy gained her TK.

Do you have a comic book where that is stated? I just re-read Revolution, and they say nothing about Jean gaining Betsy’s telepathy.

[Wiccan]

Whenever people talk about Jean only being more powerful than Emma because of the Phoenix, I remember that time where Non-Phoenix Jean knocked out Phoenix Emma with ease on Endsong.

[rutog98]

Do you have a comic book where that is stated? I just re-read Revolution, and they say nothing about Jean gaining Betsy’s telepathy.

Claremont explained this on a Newsgroup board back then and I am sure that it is in some issue as well. This is why Psylocke was a telekinetic during Revolution, but had no telepathy, and Jean's TP got a huge boost, but she had no TK. Even with this boost, however, I showed limitations to Jean's powers that Emma had surpassed. I'll have to go and dig through my Revolution issues to see if I can find the issue. Remember, there were two X-Men titles back then (the team led by Rogue and the other one led by Gambit).

[rutog98]

Whenever people talk about Jean only being more powerful than Emma because of the Phoenix, I remember that time where Non-Phoenix Jean knocked out Phoenix Emma with ease on Endsong.

Yeah, but at that time, Jean was connected to the PF in the White Hot Room. So, Jean would have been boosted. Remember at the end of Morrison's run, when Jean died, she went into the White Hot Room with all of the previous Phoenix Host (save probably Rachel). It was while she was there that Endsong happened, hence, when Jean ripped the PF out of Emma, she told the PF, "I am you." That can only mean that Jean was connected to the PF still in the WHR when in that story.

Also, it should be noted that Emma, in this story, could not host that small portion of the PF since at this point in canon only certain characters could serve as Phoenix hosts. The Phoenix possession was killing Emma, IIRC, and she was unstable. Now, given the AvX storyline, that changed. Anybody can host the PF and Emma was easily able to handle half of it (and would have held all of it had she outlasted Cyclops). Also, lets not forget at this time that the PF liked Jean so much that it refused to hurt her as we saw in "No More Humans". So, Emma/Phoenix would be no threat to any incarnation of Jean since the PF would refuse to hurt her.

[raidensix]

My 2 cents:

Like others have said, it's been stated on panel that Jean/Rachel are more powerful than Emma, however, writers will always have their own quirks:

- if Xavier (or sometimes Emma) is around, focus on Jean's TK to avoid redundancy
- when 2 characters have the same powers, the "villainous" one will always be shown to be more vicious to handicap the "heroic" one
- when Jean was killed off, Emma had to be written as powerful enough to replace both Jean and Xavier (specially when Xavier became human)

That said, going by feats alone will never satisfy everyone. Look at Colossus, for example. He's 100-tonner but you can never tell that from the way he's utilized since he was resurrected.

[Grey]

That statement is PIS.

In a debate, people weigh evidence.

If you're going to decide that evidence counter to your view is "plot induced stupidity", you aren't really engaging in a rational debate.

[rutog98]

My 2 cents:

Like others have said, it's been stated on panel that Jean/Rachel are more powerful than Emma, however, writers will always have their own quirks:

- if Xavier (or sometimes Emma) is around, focus on Jean's TK to avoid redundancy
- when 2 characters have the same powers, the "villainous" one will always be shown to be more vicious to handicap the "heroic" one
- when Jean was killed off, Emma had to be written as powerful enough to replace both Jean and Xavier (specially when Xavier became human)

That said, going by feats alone will never satisfy everyone. Look at Colossus, for example. He's 100-tonner but you can never tell that from the way he's utilized since he was resurrected.

I don't think its so much that Emma got a powerboost, to be honest, as she just had more opportunities to let her powers shine after she joined the X-Men. Virtually ever feat I have referenced for Emma came from the 80s and 90s except the one where she stalemated Exodus. Emma has always been stronger than Jean when you compare what each character has accomplished save when Jean is boosted by some external power source like a PF possession.

[johnnysv75]

My 2 cents:

Like others have said, it's been stated on panel that Jean/Rachel are more powerful than Emma, however, writers will always have their own quirks:

- if Xavier (or sometimes Emma) is around, focus on Jean's TK to avoid redundancy
- when 2 characters have the same powers, the "villainous" one will always be shown to be more vicious to handicap the "heroic" one
- when Jean was killed off, Emma had to be written as powerful enough to replace both Jean and Xavier (specially when Xavier became human)

That said, going by feats alone will never satisfy everyone. Look at Colossus, for example. He's 100-tonner but you can never tell that from the way he's utilized since he was resurrected.

Yeah. Emma got a boost after Jean died. It will be interesting to see how Jean and Emma are written when Jean is resurrected.

Oh God, poor Colossus. Writers always use him as a punching bag, even though it’s stated time and time again that he is one of the strongest people in the world.

[rutog98]

In a debate, people weigh evidence.

If you're going to decide that evidence counter to your view is "plot induced stupidity", you aren't really engaging in a rational debate.

I have provided evidence throughout this discussion on why it was PIS. In comparing Jean's feats, when she isn't enhanced by some external power, against Emma's, Jeans comes out a distant second against Emma.