Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[yogaflame]

The original Dark Phoenix saga was written as just Jean amped up to her full potential. The retcon of the Phoenix Force didn't come for 5 or 6 years later.

Jean is stronger than Emma. Always has been, always will be.

[brightnessatmidnight]

Who can forget the silent issue of New X-men 121?

121 thanks Emma.jpg

Despite being such an Emma fanboy, Morrison still chose to have Jean be seen as outclassing Emma in a very overt way that left no room to imagine who was superior.

This is one of the most direct comparison's we have that took place in a pure telepathic arena, rather than a comparison between isolated feats of varying contexts/writers/power level variation.

Emma for all her supposed skill and finesse was taken down by Xavier's mental defenses at the very start, not contributing anything, while Jean just walked in like she owned the place. Emma just looked like a rank amateur by comparison and contrast.

[rutog98]

The original Dark Phoenix saga was written as just Jean amped up to her full potential. The retcon of the Phoenix Force didn't come for 5 or 6 years later.

Jean is stronger than Emma. Always has been, always will be.

Doesn't matter anymore. The PF was made into a cosmic entity separate from Jean and then the retcon where the PF wasn't even the real Jean. Jean fans cannot claim any of those feats from the original Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga.

That said, again, without the PF, Jean is much weaker than Emma.

[rutog98]

Who can forget the silent issue of New X-men 121?

121 thanks Emma.jpg

Despite being such an Emma fanboy, Morrison still chose to have Jean be seen as outclassing Emma in a very overt way that left no room to imagine who was superior.

This is one of the most direct comparison's we have that took place in a pure telepathic arena, rather than a comparison between isolated feats of varying contexts/writers/power level variation.

Emma for all her supposed skill and finesse was taken down by Xavier's mental defenses at the very start, not contributing anything, while Jean just walked in like she owned the place. Emma just looked like a rank amateur by comparison and contrast.

Jean had the Phoenix Force boosting her powers, so this doesn't count. I freely concede that when boosted by the PF, Jean is stronger than Emma.

[silence.]

So basically rational Emma fans, Jean fans, Phoenix fans, Scemme fans, Jemma fans, Jott fans and so on all agree. Emma is skilled and a high ranking telepath, she'll put up a fight but she's not as powerful as a non-Phoenix adult Jean.

Sidepoint: Emma's more direct parallel (power wise) is Xavier. She was created as a counterpoint to him. And Jean was always considered more powerful than Xavier so why are we even having this conversation. It's not a grey area at all, pun... somewhat intended.

[johnnysv75]

Jean had the Phoenix Force boosting her powers, so this doesn't count. I freely concede that when boosted by the PF, Jean is stronger than Emma.

The Phoenix Force doesn’t boost her powers until Logan kills her. It is clearly stated in New X-Men that it is Jean’s own potential. They talk about her terrible powers. Not Phoenix’s. But Jean’s. I know that you are not a fan of Jean, so its is hard for you to see that. But it is there in Morrison’s own writing.

I love both Jean and Emma. They are both incredibly powerful. Both are Omega with great potential. But it is there in writing that Jean is more powerful. And Emma is more ruthless.

And if this was a poll, Jean would have won. More people have called Jean the most powerful one. I know that won’t make you change your mind, but I just wanted to point that out. :-)

[yogaflame]

So basically rational Emma fans, Jean fans, Phoenix fans, Scemme fans, Jemma fans, Jott fans and so on all agree. Emma is skilled and a high ranking telepath, she'll put up a fight but she's not as powerful as a non-Phoenix adult Jean.

Sidepoint: Emma's more direct parallel (power wise) is Xavier. She was created as a counterpoint to him. And Jean was always considered more powerful than Xavier so why are we even having this conversation. It's not a grey area at all, pun... somewhat intended.

rutog just likes to belittle Jean whenever possible. And he also likes trying to declare power supremacy through a loose interpretation of canon.

[Warund]

I don't understand this thread, to be honest. It feels as if the OP is looking for specific reasons to downplay Jean, and no one here is buying it. Saying that Jean must not have the Phoenix seems rather silly to me, because, and I may be wrong here, but I believe that every X-Men run where Jean was a part of, after Uncanny 100, had some sort of Phoenix plot revolving around her. Either she flat out called herself Phoenix or she manifested the phoenix effect somehow, so which feats would OP even consider as valid for Jean here? 60's, Marvel Girl Jean's original portrayal? Then for sure, Emma is much stronger than her.

I say this as an Emma fan as well. Both Jean and Emma are two of my favorite characters in comics, but Jean should win 8 or 9 times out of 10 here. Here is hoping they don't have to fight anymore, and when Jean comes back they get to have some sort of relationship with each other, like Ghost Jean and Emma have right now: they trust each other but don't want to admit it.

[rutog98]

You mean I just tell it like it is. And, yeah, my loose interpretation of canon like this for example, huh?:

Now lets see how each of these two ladies fare against Exodus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Oea-IHEKLMn...imcj4q9K=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Hu8B4cEDNt5...yw_eUrNc=s1600

and later, Jean won't even attempt to engage him on the psychic plane after she got whupped alongside Crystal, Wanda, and Peitro earlier:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/hUuokB92VnG...vLoIX74u=s1600

Look at how she just stands there and allows Exodus to beat Pietro, mind attack Rogue, who wasn't even there, etc. She was nothing to Exodus.

And then he goes around through the story carrying these four, including Jean, in a TK grip.

Notice its Xavier who has to step in (as he is the most powerful psi on the planet) while Jean just sits there scared of Exodus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GU6LPa9n3n_...uK945o54=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/OuSNJ0ScIH4...3LcjSz_0=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/KoimHnXdd5B...Tu71WFga=s1600

Here, while Exodus is distracted by fighting Holocaust, Jean attempts to establish contact with Exodus and he effortlessly expels her out of his mind:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...rougherhl4.jpg

Note how Jean goes collapsing to the ground after Exodus throws her out of his mind like she's nothing.

Here, Emma stalemates Exodus:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...11-exodus1.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...1cfb1971_o.jpg

Note how Emma is such a powerful foe for Exodus that he can't do anything else while fighting her. His sole focus has to be on her, yet Jean without the PF is a joke to him.

Emma Frost>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey

Now, lets see how these two ladies fare against psi-blocking technology:

Also, we all know that Dark Beast would have psi-blocking tech far greater than that of the Russian government.

So, here is Revloution Jean (who had Psylocke's TP added to her own) being stopped by Russian government psi-blocking tech:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GbR4wFTDT5o...UpiTwCpW=s1600

And here is Emma smashing her way through DOZENS of Dark Beast's psi-blocking tech:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DFh-Fz0gVo9...oCqzZT6u=s1600

[rutog98]

I don't understand this thread, to be honest. It feels as if the OP is looking for specific reasons to downplay Jean, and no one here is buying it. Saying that Jean must not have the Phoenix seems rather silly to me, because, and I may be wrong here, but I believe that every X-Men run where Jean was a part of, after Uncanny 100, had some sort of Phoenix plot revolving around her. Either she flat out called herself Phoenix or she manifested the phoenix effect somehow, so which feats would OP even consider as valid for Jean here? 60's, Marvel Girl Jean's original portrayal? Then for sure, Emma is much stronger than her.

I say this as an Emma fan as well. Both Jean and Emma are two of my favorite characters in comics, but Jean should win 8 or 9 times out of 10 here. Here is hoping they don't have to fight anymore, and when Jean comes back they get to have some sort of relationship with each other, like Ghost Jean and Emma have right now: they trust each other but don't want to admit it.

I'm not talking about instances where Jean merely takes on the codename Phoenix. I only disqualify the times where she was actually possessed by the Phoenix Force. We have an entire decade of non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey. That's TONS more issues of Jean having her telepathy than we got to see Emma in the 80s/90s (where all save one of my Emma feats are coming from).

In the 80s, we only got to see Emma the few times she showed up for story arcs in X-Men and New Mutants. In the 90s, we saw her in Generation X, but notice how she was primarily in the role of a teacher in Gen X. She was in all of the battle situations Jean constantly was engaged in as a member of the X-Men in the 90s, and yet Emma is still, even with far less opportunities to show her power than Jean had, she heads and shoulders above Jean in terms of power until Jean gets the Phoenix Force.

The point I am trying to make in this thread is Jean Grey without the PF is completely overrated. Yes, you can find issues that say she's more powerful than so-and-so, but she doesn't have the feats to back such claims. Hence, nobody has been able to pull up Jean feats that surpasses or even matches Emma's without trying to slip in Morrison stuff where she had the PF.

When I first got on the internet at the time when I seriously got into comics, I got involved in a lot of constant Emma vs. Jean, Storm vs. Jean, and Storm vs. Magneto debates. I've laid off Emma for a while because I stopped caring about the character after Morrison got a hold of her and ruined her character and personality for me. My favorite mutants were Storm, Gambit, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Pre-Morrison Emma, and Selene, so I tended to defend Emma a lot. These arguments I am using now are the same ones I used back when.

The only reason people are shouting Jean is stronger than Emma once I knock away all of the Phoenix Force feats is because of some quoted issue said Jean was such-and-such powerful yet plenty of other telepaths have much better showings (White Queen, Exodus, Xavier, Shadow King, Legion, Shaman X-Man, etc.)

[Tycon]

I repeat what Emma did, any other incoluse telepath without much experience could do it.

Emma is very trained in her powers.

but it is not more powerful than Exodus or Kid Omega, and of course less powerful than Jean.

Any evidence of that or just baseless assumption? And why is she less powerful than Exodus? Can't keep using the "Emma is very trained" excuse to nerf on-panel evidence.

Each Cuckoo is a clone of Emma Frost. So Xorn defeated FOUR Emma Frost. Mama's powers weren't up to speed, but her daughters powers were just fine and Xorn took them down savagely.

So yeah, we have seen Jean without the Phoenix beat Emma.

Jeen beat Emma in X-Men blue and freed Cyke from Emma's control.

Ghost Jean possessed and immobilized Emma Frost.

Question mark & question mark. Emma >>> Stepford Cuckoos. And Jean didn't 'beat' Emma, the former talked Emma down and she slipped up. In fact, the only injury to Emma was from Tyke's full-power optic blast (which is already PIS to begin with):





eugh. just posting these pictures feels cursed. And I wasn't arguing Jean > Emma, but many of these posters are definitely underscoring her power.

[johnnysv75]

Isn’t Emma just keeping him distracted so that Sooraya can defeat him? :-)

Jean wasn’t around during this time. It would be interesting to see how a resurrected Jean would fare against Exodus.

Most people here seem to agree that Jean is more powerful. It will be interesting to see how she is written when she returns. Especially now that there is a movie coming out, focusing on her. :-)

[ariwl1]

It will be interesting to see where they leave Jean upon her resurrection. During much of the 90's where she was most active without the Phoenix telepathy often wasn't written to be as interesting as it was in the Morrison era and after. For much of her written history Emma had an edge in the psychic department in terms of story usage since:

a.) She'd always embraced her abilities and all they could do, wheras Jean was cut off from them for a time and extremely wary of their potential upon their return. This stemmed from both her own fears and that of Xavier's which likely impressed on her. Notably, this is something Emma considered a diservice to Jean and something she took the opportunity to correct when she was tutoring young Jean.





Also...

b.) Emma generally always played by a less strict rulebook than adult Jean did. This left her the opportunity to be more creative with her powers in ways Jean may have been hesitant to.

But however Emma felt about Jean as a person, as time went on she greatly respected Jean's abilities. After maybe Xavier Jean was likely the only person Emma would consider a peer/rival in the telepathy department (though she'd likely never say it out loud).

[rutog98]

Isn’t Emma just keeping him distracted so that Sooraya can defeat him? :-)

Jean wasn’t around during this time. It would be interesting to see how a resurrected Jean would fare against Exodus.

Most people here seem to agree that Jean is more powerful. It will be interesting to see how she is written when she returns. Especially now that there is a movie coming out, focusing on her. :-)

Resurrected Jean appears to have some of the Phoenix stuff in her, so she may be able to give Exodus a run for his money. That said, we have seen Exodus trounce Jean Grey twice without any effort whatsoever when she didn't have the PF. I've posted scans of those instances in this thread. In fact, just scroll back up on this page of the thread to see them. Read my response to Yogaflame where I reposted one of my earlier quotes with the scans. Its the post with the large bolded letters which I emphasized as such so that nobody could miss it.

[johnnysv75]

In the 90s, we She was in all of the battle situations Jean constantly was engaged in as a member of the X-Men in the 90s, and yet Emma is still heads and shoulders above Jean in terms of power until Jean gets the Phoenix Force.

No. She is not. That’s your opinion. Not a fact.

Lots of people in this thread have argued that Jean only had the Phoenix force at the very end of Morrison’s run, but you don’t seem to read those posts.