Who is the superior telepath: Emma or Non-PF Jean Grey

[johnnysv75]

And even though the Phoenix story was retconned, we still have it in writing (back when Moira examined Phoenix) that Moira and Xavier always thought that Jean had this potential within her.

[rutog98]

No. She is not. That’s your opinion. Not a fact.

Lots of people in this thread have argued that Jean only had the Phoenix force at the very end of Morrison’s run, but you don’t seem to read those posts.

Because it is not true. I've already posted scans where she had the PF way before then, but your side wants to ignore them. Here comes the scans again:

1) Jean very much did have the Phoenix Force during Morrison's run, hence in New X-Men #139, when she confronted Emma about Scott's psychic affair, she said, now its just "you, me, and the Phoenix!" In other words there were three entities in the room.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPu...b1hyonPR=s1600

Okay, so you're wrong. Jean was possessed by the PF.

^^^This is taken from the second post on the entire thread. Notice that scan came out of New X-Men #139. That's nowhere near the end of Morrison's run. In fact, she had the PF even way before then. I issue in New X-Men #120 when some humans with tech showed up to attack the school. Jean glew up with the PF when she took them down and Wolverine said, "The last time you shined like that, the whole universe peed its pants," or something of that nature. Bottom line is, Jean had the PF when she did her big feats during that run.

Here, are scans of that from New X-Men issue 120

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/07143FPP7qo...BE_V60lO=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/kf4JlC5RqC-...LcbL3ZJO=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/A1hbAm0e-nq...0jSnUE4a=s1600

So, from New X-Men 120 forward, she started getting boosted by the Phoenix Force.

Also, there is this that I posted on the first page:

That statement is PIS. Jean Grey is slow as a turtle. Emma got command over her psi-powers quickly while it took Jean YEARS of study with Xavier to learn even the basics.

More stuff from the Morrison run to show that Jean did have the PF, thus all of those feats are nullified:


Not only do you have that scan I posted where Jean said, "Now its just you, me, and the Phoenix," but then you also have instances like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6oOUNQRpC9H...irlONSe7=s1600

and this:

(They are headed for the sun in these scans:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/qjW75mpHX3U...DItmrPZK=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/jutJiG0kVwO...isPTuPyI=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/q-DiXl-Pdtn...T1c04suw=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Pb0ygj5HKpJ...04UF9v4R=s1600

Followed by this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/JDW_hkGiUhj...Pqyrehvv=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/9b6I-fi6sSh...y98Rs0_T=s1600

This all happened during the Morrison run and some people are trying to say that Jean did not have the PF during his stint. Give me a break!

[rutog98]

And even though the Phoenix story was retconned, we still have it in writing (back when Moira examined Phoenix) that Moira and Xavier always thought that Jean had this potential within her.

That was the Phoenix Force in the guise of Jean they were examining. Look, when the retcon happened, they tried to keep Jean special by saying only she and her kids can use the PF. Then that changed in Excalibur to where others could also host the PF, but only a few others outside of Jean's lineage. That number increased again during Morrison's run. Finally, when we get to AvX , anybody can host the Phoenix Force now.

[yogaflame]

That was the Phoenix Force in the guise of Jean they were examining.

He's referring to this scene in Uncanny #125.

jeanmoirapotential.jpg

Retcon or no, Moira is referring to the mutant Jean Grey's potential, not any Phoenix Force.

[rutog98]

He's referring to this scene in Uncanny #125.

jeanmoirapotential.jpg

Retcon or no, Moira is referring to the mutant Jean Grey's potential, not any Phoenix Force.

Moira had been studying Phoenix Force Jean Grey ever since the end of that Magneto story circa Uncanny X-Men 114. When she made that comment about PF Jean Grey, it was after she studied the cosmic entity in the guise of Jean. She thought she was studying Jean, but it was really somebody else. Do you see what I'm getting at? The retcon destroys all of your arguments. We have never seen Jean Grey able to eat a star or anything like that on the merits of her own power. Its always been the Phoenix Force who can do that.

The fact is I've been in far too many Storm vs. Jean and Emma vs. Jean debates where Jean fans are so hellbent on winning the debate that they have to go to Phoenix Force feats when the tide of battle in the debate turns against them. That's exactly what's going on here. Any feat brought up for Jean from the Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle era or even Revolution (when she had Psylocke's powers boosting her own TP), Emma tops. So, what always happens is people go to the Morrison run and try to use feats where Jean is possessed by the PF. Heck, she always refers to the Phoenix as a separate entity from herself throughout the run. She says things like, "Now its just you, me, and the Phoenix," and, "The Phoenix devours stars and planets," etc. This is clearly her talking about a separate being from herself, but one that has symbioted with her. So, in one sense, when the PF bonds with Jean, they are one and the same, but still two distinct beings.

I have even been in debates with Jean fans who have stated that the Phoenix Force was something created by Jean's imagination given form. When I get through laughing at my computer screen after reading such claims, I then ask, "How old is Jean Grey? The Phoenix Force is as old as creation as it was the spark that ignited creation itself. Last I checked, the predates Jean by eons and eons and eons."

The fact is Jean has no feats to compare with Emma Frost unless she's manifesting that cosmic firebird stuff. Them's the facts. Quoting issues that state "Jean is more powerful than so-and-so" don't hold any water unless she has the feats to back such claims up without that cosmic firebird stuff.

[ExodusCloak]

Jean was tapping into the PF in the early issues of Morrison's X-Men. Morrison stated so in Wizard Magazine. Xavier asks her this and she said Jean is the only house I live earlier on. And Jean even says so you me and the Phoenix as well as her enlightenment of Bishop and the bit where Phoenix puts Emma back together. So it's definitely errornous to say Jean had no access to the PF in Morrisons X-Men.

Morrison considered them equals actually stated so in the magazine. But feat wise that goes to Emma. Wiped out 8 Skrull psis trained take out the X-Men and causing a global telepathy blockade all boosted by 8 cerebras while Emmas mind was detached from her body. And then there's punking Exodus twice one of which involved her sitting on a sofa

[yogaflame]

Moira had been studying Phoenix Force Jean Grey ever since the end of that Magneto story circa Uncanny X-Men 114. When she made that comment about PF Jean Grey, it was after she studied the cosmic entity in the guise of Jean.

Them's the facts.

The fact is that the most premiere geneticist, who has studied Jean Grey and reviewed Charles's own studies for years, is commenting on the mutant Jean Grey's potential. She's not talking about the Phoenix Force, or even the data she has collected from studying Phoenix. She's saying Charles and her always knew JEAN GREY always possessed the potential of Phoenix, they just didn't think Jean would achieve that potential.

She did.

[rutog98]

Jean was tapping into the PF in the early issues of Morrison's X-Men. Morrison stated so in Wizard Magazine. Xavier asks her this and she said Jean is the only house I live earlier on. And Jean even says so you me and the Phoenix as well as her enlightenment of Bishop and the bit where Phoenix puts Emma back together. So it's definitely errornous to say Jean had no access to the PF in Morrisons X-Men.

Morrison considered them equals actually stated so in the magazine. But feat wise that cause to Emma. Wiped out 8 Skrull psis trained take out the X-Men and causing a global telepathy blockade all boosted by 8 cerebras while Emmas mind was detached from her body. And then there's punking Exodus twice one of which involved her sitting on a sofa

Meanwhile, I've posted two different story arcs of Exodus easily overpowering a non-PF Jean Grey as if she were nothing.

[ExodusCloak]

The fact is that the most premiere geneticist, who has studied Jean Grey and reviewed Charles's own studies for years, is commenting on the mutant Jean Grey's potential. She's not talking about the Phoenix Force, or even the data she has collected from studying Phoenix. She's saying Charles and her always knew JEAN GREY always possessed the potential of Phoenix, they just didn't think Jean would achieve that potential.

She did.

It's now the potential to wield the Phoenix Force it's not an internal aspect of her power but an external boost..

On paper Emma has better telepathic feats. Even if some writers go either way or say they're equal or say Jeans more power or vice versa. The Exodus feat is a good barometer

[rutog98]

The fact is that the most premiere geneticist, who has studied Jean Grey and reviewed Charles's own studies for years, is commenting on the mutant Jean Grey's potential. She's not talking about the Phoenix Force, or even the data she has collected from studying Phoenix. She's saying Charles and her always knew JEAN GREY always possessed the potential of Phoenix, they just didn't think Jean would achieve that potential.

She did.

When Moira made those studies, there was no Phoenix Force in canon at the time. However, when the retcon came along and created the cosmic Phoenix Force entity, then it changed everything. Look, we have never seen Jean Grey eat a star, okay? We have never seen her do anything even resembling that nor does her feats come close to Phoenix Force Jean Grey's. Jean fans have to stop trying to cling onto feats that Jean herself has never done to try and win debates. The Phoenix Force is an abstract cosmic being as old as creation itself. It can imbue anybody with immense power. Don't get me wrong. Jean is powerful and all, but she's FAR below Emma in power unless she has the PF boosting her.

[ExodusCloak]

Well there's the other aspect. Look at how Xavier fared against SuperSkrull - Illuminati version? And the dreamers in Carey's mini were the Skrulls worlds premiere telepaths all training years to defeat the x-telepaths and each was boosted by a cerebra

Even the Jemma Skrull wasn't selected as part of the Platoon

[Wiccan]

Yeah, but at that time, Jean was connected to the PF in the White Hot Room. So, Jean would have been boosted. Remember at the end of Morrison's run, when Jean died, she went into the White Hot Room with all of the previous Phoenix Host (save probably Rachel). It was while she was there that Endsong happened, hence, when Jean ripped the PF out of Emma, she told the PF, "I am you." That can only mean that Jean was connected to the PF still in the WHR when in that story.

Also, it should be noted that Emma, in this story, could not host that small portion of the PF since at this point in canon only certain characters could serve as Phoenix hosts. The Phoenix possession was killing Emma, IIRC, and she was unstable. Now, given the AvX storyline, that changed. Anybody can host the PF and Emma was easily able to handle half of it (and would have held all of it had she outlasted Cyclops). Also, lets not forget at this time that the PF liked Jean so much that it refused to hurt her as we saw in "No More Humans". So, Emma/Phoenix would be no threat to any incarnation of Jean since the PF would refuse to hurt her.

There's no evidence that Jean had a power boost at that scene. Jean was "boosted" when she first went to the WHR on Here Comes Tomorrow because she was Phoenix, born from the Phoenix egg and all. But that Jean is not the same as the one from the WHR who we see against Phoenix Emma on Endsong, because the Here Comes Tomorrow future got erased at the end of that storyline.

And if she couldn't hurt Jean, that's because as you said Emma couldn't control the Phoenix at the time... What imo only counts as a point for Jean. Jean managed to be in control for pretty much all of Claremont's run before Emma and Mastermind's interference, and then later on Morrison's. I also wouldn't say the P5 were quite in total control. Cyclops did kill Xavier after all and I don't think it's fair to say he would if he wasn't a Phoenix host. And of course, the Phoenix was divided at the time, while it was whole when Jean was a host.

[rutog98]

There's no evidence that Jean had a power boost at that scene. Jean was "boosted" when she first went to the WHR on Here Comes Tomorrow because she was Phoenix, born from the Phoenix egg and all. But that Jean is not the same as the one from the WHR who we see against Phoenix Emma on Endsong, because the Here Comes Tomorrow future got erased at the end of that storyline.

And if she couldn't hurt Jean, that's because as you said Emma couldn't control the Phoenix at the time... What imo only counts as a point for Jean. Jean managed to be in control for pretty much all of Claremont's run before Emma and Mastermind's interference, and then later on Morrison's. I also wouldn't say the P5 were quite in total control. Cyclops did kill Xavier after all and I don't think it's fair to say he would if he wasn't a Phoenix host. And of course, the Phoenix was divided at the time, while it was whole when Jean was a host.

That was not an alternate reality Jean or a time displaced Jean we saw in Endsong. That Jean was dead and in the ground, then she came up and pulled the PF out of Emma. She even told the PF, "You are me." In other words, Jean was still connected to the WHR, otherwise, she would not have been able to say that. Jean and the PF are only one when the PF is bonded to her. When Jean went to her death at the end of the Morrison run, she went into the White Hot Room and her body was buried in the ground. So, using the power of the PF in the WHR, that's the only way she could have temporarily risen and said what she said as she pulled the PF out of Emma.

Regarding Jean's persona controlling the power of the PF, the PF's powers were cut back to Xavier-power levels after she healed the M'Kraan crystal. She was not wielding that huge cosmic power again until around the time she went Dark Phoenix. Mastermind's and Emma's mind games unlocked that power once more.

[xhx23x]

When Moira made those studies, there was no Phoenix Force in canon at the time. However, when the retcon came along and created the cosmic Phoenix Force entity, then it changed everything. Look, we have never seen Jean Grey eat a star, okay? We have never seen her do anything even resembling that nor does her feats come close to Phoenix Force Jean Grey's. Jean fans have to stop trying to cling onto feats that Jean herself has never done to try and win debates. The Phoenix Force is an abstract cosmic being as old as creation itself. It can imbue anybody with immense power. Don't get me wrong. Jean is powerful and all, but she's FAR below Emma in power unless she has the PF boosting her.

The thing is that asking for a basic power set Jean is not really possible. Like Emma herself said Jean is the Phoenix even when the Phoenix is not her.

[rutog98]

Here are the scans from Endsong:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/fSbI36GinX0...YL3OwLjU=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1LsTUeouioK...AxpAZUBn=s1600

The Phoenix Force asked Jean how she could resurrect herself and everything without its powers. Jean's response, "I am you, don't you remember?"
So, she did used the PF to resurrect herself and do everything she did.

So, the Phoenix Force was fractured in this story (which was the premise of the whole arc) and thus lost part of its memory.

Also, notice how Jeans tells it to come back into the White Hot Room with her.

Edit: This also shows that a part of Jean was still in the WHR and it was merely a piece of Jean we saw in these scans. This is why she tells the PF to come back with her to the WHR where all of their pieces will once again be whole. So, while still connected to the WHR, she's bonded to the PF.