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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Maybe fans who lean toward Diana over Clark didn't like that, but she did turn respectfully down his advances in his own book years prior so I'm not sure that's unfair, and on top of that Rucka recalled heir actual relationship as a mere hook up, so if anything Superman titles have been more "fair."
    Thank you for reminding me why no matter what Robinson could do, it will always be leagues better than what Rucka did at the beginning of Rebirth. I obviously know it, but I hate so much his run that I tend to forget those kind of things...

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Its not at all better. At least when they did Superman/Wonder Woman it was in a reboot context in which neither character had any current romantic ties. Wonder Woman is with Steve again. Batman is freaking engaged. And they go down this route? They can pad it with all the technicalities they want but the aim is clear: they need to make it known that even though he's getting married, Wonder Woman still wants him and he could have her at any time if he wasn't such a great guy. Its disgusting, just like the aforementioned Action issue was back when that abomination hit the shelves.
    You are a hardcore Superman/Wonder Woman shipper. I don't care for them together and I like that they did their best to try and erase it in Rebirth. I mean if you replaced Bruce with Clark and it was a story about how there were unresolved romantic feelings between Clark and Diana you would change your opinion on this story I imagine. I don't really care for Clark or Bruce being with Diana, but there have at least been times where Bruce and Diana have been interesting to me, but I'm also not expecting much from the story because I think King is focusing so much on trying to make Selina believable as a long term love interest instead of a fling here or there.

    But it also helps that I don't care about comic Steve too. I don't think him and WW will ever really last for long in the comics because he isn't a strong enough character. Part of me also doesn't think Bruce and Selina are going to stay together that long given the types of characters they are.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm not without bias. But it doesn't invalidate the points. On a purely objective level Superman and Wonder Woman was far less problematic because it happened in a new continuity where the key relationships were all different. Trying the same thing in the old continuity would have been plenty problematic. Regardless what romantic pairings I may like, I put more importance on the lore. It depends on the context, it depends on the timing. So you are incorrect, if you swapped out Superman with this, my opinion would not change. The lore as it stands now supports it no longer with Superman just as it doesn't with Batman. If I'd just take whatever was thrown at me everything else be damned, I would have loved Immortal Beloved. I hated it. For partly the same reason I hate this: bad timing, bad context.

    Now, where the bias comes in: if they ever wanted to explore this in a situation where both characters were untethered, I still would not be a fan. I just don't like the couple. I'm not pretending I'd ever give it a shot because I was soured on the idea long ago. But I wouldn't speak out on it messing with Diana as a character if both characters were free. Instead they've in the past insisted on shoehorning this when one or the other aren't. And that could be the route taken again. Thus screwing with the context of things actual WW writers are doing*. They could have done this in the New 52 freely. They could write stories set in another reality about this. Instead they keep trying to force it into a continuity that doesn't support it. And yes it was a problem when they tried to do it after Superman got married. Though in the then-main continuity Immortal Beloved is the only time I can recall they did.

    *This on the assumption that this article is right, as the theme of the issue would be Batman resisting the temptation of Diana in the present out of his love for Selina. That would be bad in the context of the saga of Diana and Steve in her comic. If the article was wrong, if it was just looking for a reaction which I've dutifully provided like a predictable moth to a flame, then a lot of this becomes null, with some sheepishness on my end.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-13-2018 at 04:57 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  4. #19

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    I don't think Batman 39 will be similar to the Action Comics #761. There is no point in copying some moment from the comic which the majority was criticized. I think that it will be only about friendship, but no more. Simply the article author wanted to remind people about smww.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I hope you're right.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  6. #21
    RIP, Norm... Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Majority criticized? I definitely wasn't online or in comic shops back then, so I dunno. But going by online reviews most people like this one best of the Kelly run, right after #775. Which of course also has many detractors. I think if a rising star like King does take influence from it, that'd be the best account of its legacy.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member The Learner's Avatar
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    It will definitely be better than SM/WW, that being said I strongly dislike WW involved in any sort of romantic relationship with Bruce.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    As someone who loves Action Comics #761 (no surprise Bleeding Cool doesn't bother to fact check the issue number) this sounds like a bad idea. That story worked because one, Superman and Wonder Woman fighting demons in Valhalla for 1000 years is cooler than Batman and Wonder Woman doing that. Two, because Superman and Lois had been married for years by this point and their romance has far more chemistry and credibility than the Bat-Cat romance does. And finally, Wonder Woman is with Steve Trevor currently so any attraction between Bruce and Diana steps all over Diana and Steve's relationship in Wonder Woman's series. I also didn't see how Wonder Woman was demeaned in AC #761 but to each their own. I do enjoy Kelly's run a lot so that probably explains it.

  9. #24
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    As much as I value their friendship, Diana's interest in Clark during the PF days always bugged me, especially when she knew he was taken. I hated it when she told him she had a vision where they married and had kids at one point, totally inappropriate (you can find the scans of that scene over in the S/WW thread), like you Lvenger, I actually liked AC#761 because Clark put Diana in her place and she realized there was a difference between a want and a need, just like how I'll always appreciate her realizing that there's different kinds of love in Rebirth.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 01-14-2018 at 10:15 AM.

  10. #25
    Spectacular Member LadyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    As someone who loves Action Comics #761 (no surprise Bleeding Cool doesn't bother to fact check the issue number) this sounds like a bad idea. That story worked because one, Superman and Wonder Woman fighting demons in Valhalla for 1000 years is cooler than Batman and Wonder Woman doing that. Two, because Superman and Lois had been married for years by this point and their romance has far more chemistry and credibility than the Bat-Cat romance does. And finally, Wonder Woman is with Steve Trevor currently so any attraction between Bruce and Diana steps all over Diana and Steve's relationship in Wonder Woman's series. I also didn't see how Wonder Woman was demeaned in AC #761 but to each their own. I do enjoy Kelly's run a lot so that probably explains it.

    In response to the bolded portion, can you state how Action Comics #761 reflected on Diana favorably in that situation since you don't see how she was demeaned? I'm curious as to your perspective.
    Last edited by LadyP; 01-14-2018 at 12:20 PM. Reason: Grammatical purposes

  11. #26
    Spectacular Member LadyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    As much as I value their friendship, Diana's interest in Clark during the PF days always bugged me, especially when she knew he was taken. I hated it when she told him she saw a vision where they married and had kids at one point, totally inappropriate (you can find the scans of that scene over in the S/WW thread), like you Lvenger, I actually liked AC#761 because Clark put Diana in her place and she realized there was a difference between a want and a need, just like how I'll always appreciate her realizing that there's different kinds of love in Rebirth.

    As much as I value their friendship, Diana's interest in Clark during the PF days always bugged me, especially when she knew he was taken.
    This is interesting. Her interest bugged you? An interest that came about before Clark's relationship with Lois? One that Diana did not act on no less than Clark/Kal, so I'm curious by your choice of words. And might I add that it was an interest that wasn't one sided despite what Joe Kelly and a few other (Biased/Batman fan) writers wanted believed?

    I hated it when she told him she saw a vision where they married and had kids at one point, totally inappropriate
    It's one thing to be biased, but another when you try to twist information that is easily retrievable. I believe you are referencing the scan from Superman 80-Page Giant Vol 1 2 which by your statement it seems you haven't read. In the aforementioned comic, Clark/Kal seeks out Diana to talk about unresolved things between the two of them. Diana admits to being distant towards him reminding him that ever since they had the shared dream in which they fell in love and got married (refer back to Wonder Woman v2 #141), she has been more private towards him. This is something that he obviously picked up on because it bothered him enough for him to seek her out.

    like you Lvenger, I actually liked AC#761 because Clark put Diana in her place and she realized there was a difference between a want and a need, just like how I'll always appreciate her realizing that there's different kinds of love in Rebirth.
    This is especially telling. Clark put her in her place? What kind of misogynistic statement is that? There is so much that is troubling with this statement that if I started to address it, I may end up writing an entire chapter. However, I will add that at no point in time during AC #761 did we get Diana's p.o.v to determine what she realized or didn't realize. Furthermore, even after the events of AC#761 and despite Superman's 'great love' for Lois, he still withheld the information from Lois that he was with Diana when he got trapped in Valhalla in the 1000 years war. Of which he was impacted by the events that he gave Diana a miniature Mjolnir in remembrance of their time there and as a thank you. Anyway, thank you for highlighting why AC #761 is problematic. Thank you for confirming why I am not incorrect in taking issue with certain storylines because of the negative and somewhat toxic perception and mindset it tends to bring forth.
    Last edited by LadyP; 01-14-2018 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Edited for grammatical purposes

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    I am more open to Batman and Diana, then Superman and Diana just because i used to be a big fan of Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. But tbh i don't care for that pairing now. They appear like fan fiction.

    I agree with Sacred Knight in the fact that its wrong timing. I agree that such kind of pairings can be done after a reboot when the history is relatively blank. But even then i always say they shall be separated. To maintain a love affair while heading a corner of the universe is a bad idea. Its barely sustainable in my opinion.

    I think its just a tease. They are heading towards a Bat Cat marriage. At least that is the 'big picture' during Tom King's run.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-14-2018 at 12:20 PM.

  13. #28
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    None of the trinity members should be dipping in each other's pools for whatever reason afaic. Clark has Lois, Bruce has Selena and Diana has Steve, let that be it.

  14. #29
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In this continuity that should be it. I'll never consider it out of bounds to explore different ideas in continuities that support it, however. I stand by it worked quite well when they did it in the New 52. Sold well, was popular. But the continuity just has to support it first. Be it a revamped main one, or offshoots whenever those themselves are explored. Hell maybe in such a scenario exploring Bat/WW would be successful too. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it wouldn't be. I mean, JLU still has its fans...unfortunately.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyP View Post
    However, I will add that at no point in time during AC #761 did we get Diana's p.o.v to determine what she realized or didn't realize. Furthermore, even after the events of AC#761 and despite Superman's 'great love' for Lois, he still withheld the information from Lois that he was with Diana when he got trapped in Valhalla in the 1000 years war.
    Diana says to Clark that holding on to his love for Lois was "perfect". it's also conveyed silently throughout the pages that Diana wanted something from Clark that he couldn't..and wouldn't, give her, and she came to understand what true devotion looked like when he turned her down.

    Clark wasn't about to tell Lois something that would hurt her, that was as much out of love as everything was. Lois had her own fears and apprehensions about Diana at the time, she was better off hearing it later from Diana. Keep it in the sisterhood.

    Lois and Clark's love was powerful enough to reshape the universe recently. We have in-universe examples that it IS great. No quote marks necessary. Of course, we all know where your loyalties lie

    And yes, Clark did put Diana in her place. She was trying to make an inappropriate play on him at the tail end of their journey, when there was a chance they could survive and return home. It was not within her right to do that, it's a testament to how kind Clark is that he turned down her advances gently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    In this continuity that should be it. I'll never consider it out of bounds to explore different ideas in continuities that support it, however. I stand by it worked quite well when they did it in the New 52. Sold well, was popular.
    If it were widely well received or even popular, it would have lasted regardless of Rebirth or not and the Super marriage would have been left to rot with the poor sales of Lois and Clark. People wanted him back with Lois full time and that's what they got.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 01-15-2018 at 02:57 AM.

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