Batman#39 Could Be Borrowing A Plot From An Issue of Action Comics..

[misslane]

I'm very letdown by Tom King and I'm disturbed that this same sexism that plagued these books 18 years ago is still very present and inescapable in 2018. None of this is ok.

I feel the same way, and great posts!

[Nelliebly]

Diana assures him that it isn't silly that he felt the way he did. She tells him "it's perfect. It's right..." She knows the kind of man Clark/Kal is at heart, and his response confirms that. However, in response to your it's also conveyed silently throughout the pages that Diana wanted something from Clark that he couldn't..and wouldn't, give he, did we read the same story? You mean the one in which as time passed during their stay in Valhalla it is highlighted how Clark/Kal became more and more aware of Diana? How she smelled? How she felt? Juxtaposed with how he was beginning to forget bits and pieces of things about Lois? It's also stated that an unbreakable bond was forged between Kal and Diana. Yet somehow it's all about how Diana wanted something he wouldn't give?

But...she did want something he couldn't give. She wanted his heart and he couldn't give it to her. The "bond" between them was not romantic love. It was deep friendship, family and that's a pure and wonderful kind of love. But that doesn't mean he wanted to leave his wife for her because he didn't. I'm struggling with your responses a lot here because, on the one hand, I agree with you that there was a lot of misogyny in these storylines but you only seem to able to discuss it from a SM/WW ship POV and that's a problem because what you are missing is that Lois was just as much a victim here as Diana. These stories were extremely unfair to her and the writing was very manipulative distinctly in the way you both are reacting to it. I don't agree with the way the OP is dismissing the sexism but you are equally as wrong here.

If Kal knew he had nothing to hide, he would have been upfront about it right away. Nothing speaks more of guilt than the omission of pertinent details. Lois' fear stemmed from her own insecurity regarding Diana who had always been nothing but kindness personified towards her (even in the face Lois' hostilities and rudeness Diana did not respond in kind and instead extended her hand to Lois in friendship - as seen in Wonder Woman v2 #170, where Diana inadvertently revealed that she was there with Kal in the 1000 years war believing Lois already knew. Because that is to be expected in a relationship where it is believed there should be full transparency). If I found out my husband withheld such an information, I would be very suspicious. And finding out from the woman herself wouldn't make it better, 'sisterhood or not.' It would make me angry and would give me a reason to question why he would hide such a thing in the first place.

Oh good grief. It's astounding to me that you can attempt to discuss the sexism in these storylines but not recognize how sexist the narrative and writing also was to Lois. And this is the problem with your arguments.

Lois was set up here to look bad and that's extremely unfair. You need to release your shipper biases here for a minute and understand that this was unfair writing of her and writing no more true to her than some of the terrible writing for Diana. They were equally mistreated and that's the problem here that needs to be addressed. Lois Lane was a confident woman. She had no reason to ever doubt her love with Clark Kent which is why male writers inserting this insecurity into their relationship was deeply disrespectful to her.

As for Lois being "rude"---that's also extremely unfair. The hard truth is that Lois's suspicions are proven RIGHT in this story. She suspects that Diana wants her husband and she is proven right when Diana makes the pass at him. I'm not saying this is good writing. IT's not. It's terrible unfair writing. But you should reflect on how the narrative sets Lois up to look like the bad guy here when, in reality, she is correct about what she suspects. I'm a married woman too and what bothers me most about all of this is that these are men taking two iconic women and twisting them in ways that were very untrue to them and unfair. You shouldn't be discussing that unless you can discuss the ways it was unfair to Lois too. By throwing Lois under the bus the way you do, you engage in the same misogyny that you are criticizing.

I refuse to legitimize such an inane and contrived plot line. So I will speak no further on that subject than this.
As to your comment regarding where my loyalties lie...excuse me, but what?

It's no more inane or contrived than any other story including narratives where Lois is killed off so that Clark can hook up with Wonder Woman. All of these stories are contrived and it would help if we could all recognize that our emotional reactions to them are deeply dictated by our preferences. As for your "loyalities"---I imagine he's referring to the fact that you seem too biased towards SM/WW to recognize how unfair these stories were to Lois too. A problem I also have with your responses even though I don't agree with him either.

This is where I ask again if we read the same story? Once again, I understand bias, but these false and disgusting remarks you keep making in regards to Diana I am not okay with. I will point out however, that no, they did not know they were going to survive the battle and return home(it was literally stated in that panel, as well as reiterated in WW v2 #170). And if they did survive and return home, they had no idea what they would meet on the other side because a large amount of time had passed and for all they were aware, everyone they knew were long gone. As much as you try to put her down, it's a testament to Diana's honor that she didn't ridicule Kal or press the issue bearing in mind everything I just said. Some people are easily swayed by plot contrivances, I'm not one of them. But go ahead and keep trying to demean Diana and making it about how "inappropriate" she was being while extolling how much of a gentleman Clark was. Your prejudice is not showing at all (please note the sarcasm).

I mean, I don't think WE read the same story either as you seem convinced that it is some kind of proof that Superman loved Wonder Woman and I never in a thousand years (haha) got that take from it. Quite the opposite actually. The story reiterated that Clark's heart belonged to Lois and Lois alone.

I agree that Diana was very honorable in the story. Clark was also honorable as he never held it over her head going forward that she came on to him. No one was not "honorable" in this story. Everyone was honorable.

And again, you accuse him of bias and for mistreating Diana and yet you are distinctly cruel towards Lois and put her down/are uncharitable towards her POV. Look ,I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it's hypocritical because you are doing the same thing that you are calling him out for. It's a problem.

[Nelliebly]

LadyP, all I have to say is that we have vastly different impressions of the Immortal Beloved arc. I never got the sense that Clark was falling out of love for Lois and into love with Diana. The purpose of pointing out how he was more aware of certain things was probably more about showing how time was affecting him, not Diana, and to make it even more romantic and impressive that despite all of that he still remained true to Lois. What bothers me is that the story doesn't deserve the kind of defense you're giving it, which seems motivated mostly by shipping preferences. Even though I am a Clois shipper, I have a hard time celebrating the Action Comics arc despite its Clois validating conclusion.

It's a premise that does no favors to all of the characters involved, but to me (and other like-minded individuals whose thoughts I believe I echo and credit) affects the female characters the worst. It humiliates the ones who may get cheated on. It makes the ones willing to be unfaithful, usually Diana, look callous for hurting others, particularly other women when she's supposed to represent sisterhood, and pathetic for pining for someone who's in love with someone else. For this new story, it would be even worse because she would be shown willing to damage both her relationship with Steve and Bruce's relationship with Selina. It makes the ones tempted look especially bad if they give into temptation in any way, and it makes those who are using the premise look like they're doing it to act out their fantasies, including of infidelity, with Diana as the fantasy object while at the same time building themselves up as heroes for resisting.

It's just terrible in every way. I'm so disappointed to see it repeated and to see anyone defend the originzal for any reason.

The irony, to me, is that people seem able to understand that the original Action Comics story was problematic but they don't understand why it was problematic and unfair to LOIS.

The story was written by men and it was manipulative and unfair distinctly because it was designed to play into that "honorable man can resist temptation" trope in a way that was unfair to both Wonder Woman AND Lois and by falling into the trap of trying to argue that Clark was "falling out of love with Lois" (HUH?????) you play right into the misogyny.

The misogyny of this entire storyline is distinctly that Clark ALWAYS loved Lois and never considered being with anyone else. This is why it was all so unfair. Because it was male writers toying around with this fantasy aspect of Wonder Woman in a way that treated Diana like a pawn and then essentially encouraged the fandom to root for Clark to cheat on Lois. It played into this horrible idea that Lois was "jealous" and "didn't deserve Clark" and all of this was and is misogyny! None of this is right and portions of the fandom fell for this sexist crap hook, line and sinker. So to see people come on here now, understand that the story was problematic but then double down on how Lois was "mean to Diana" BLOWS MY MIND because this is exactly the sexism that we should be calling out. The demonization of Lois as the wife who didn't deserve Clark and of Wonder Woman as the innocent woman pining for the married man was manipulated by men and falling for it ::was:: the misogyny in action.

This is why I was so glad when Steve Trevor was brought back into the fold. Because the reason Wonder Woman keeps getting put into these terrible situations (both with Superman and with Batman) is distinctly because her own supporting cast has been cut off so many times and she is robbed of having her own story and so male writers use her as fantasy fodder for Batman and superman. It's all a bunch of sexist crap and this is distinctly why I do not and never will support Wonder Woman with either Superman OR Batman.

[Nelliebly]

As someone who loves Action Comics #761 (no surprise Bleeding Cool doesn't bother to fact check the issue number) this sounds like a bad idea. That story worked because one, Superman and Wonder Woman fighting demons in Valhalla for 1000 years is cooler than Batman and Wonder Woman doing that. Two, because Superman and Lois had been married for years by this point and their romance has far more chemistry and credibility than the Bat-Cat romance does. And finally, Wonder Woman is with Steve Trevor currently so any attraction between Bruce and Diana steps all over Diana and Steve's relationship in Wonder Woman's series. I also didn't see how Wonder Woman was demeaned in AC #761 but to each their own. I do enjoy Kelly's run a lot so that probably explains it.

Diana and Lois were both demeaned in AC 761. Lois was set up as being "jealous" which was disrespectful and untrue to her. Lois Lane was a beautiful, successful, confident woman. She was the best reporter int he world. And while she may not be a literal supermodel, she's a gorgeous woman and Clark/Superman has always been very honest about his attraction towards her. Setting Lois up to appear "jealous" only to have her suspicions confirmed when Wonder Woman offered herself to Superman, was unfair to her and to Diana.

On the flip side, Diana was set up to pine after a married man who was NEVER going to leave his wife for her and who always, without question, made it known over and over again that she wasn't his first choice. This is distinctly why I have such a problem with Superman/Wonder Woman because she is NEVER his first choice (sorry shippers but it's true) and Wonder Woman deserves to be a man's first choice and she will never be the first choice for Superman. And I don't think she's the first choice for Batman either. At BEST, she winds up Clark's second choice/backup after the woman he truly loves dies or he can't be with her.

The problem here is that it sets Clark up as the stud. Both women want him. He gets to be with his true love/wife but then this goddess is there on the sidelines who also wants him. So he looks cool and the women get pitted against each other and treated terribly. It's not ok.

[Sacred Knight]

I just hope they're aware of the climate they're in today. It is soooo not the time to potentially do something really tone deaf and demeaning to a character like Wonder Woman. It'd be a perfect storm of idiocy considering not just the current climate, but also the fact Wonder Woman herself as a character and icon has risen to a level of prominence not seen in 40 years. They could be facing some major backlash the likes not seen before if this is botched. I mean its not comparable to real women and what's been going on the past few months, but it would be seen as a symptom of the now highly prominent and public problem that's been thrust into the headlines. I want to believe they're not that stupid, though if only from a POV of PR awareness.

[Kuwagaton]

Diana and Lois were both demeaned in AC 761. Lois was set up as being "jealous" which was disrespectful and untrue to her. Lois Lane was a beautiful, successful, confident woman. She was the best reporter int he world. And while she may not be a literal supermodel, she's a gorgeous woman and Clark/Superman has always been very honest about his attraction towards her. Setting Lois up to appear "jealous" only to have her suspicions confirmed when Wonder Woman offered herself to Superman, was unfair to her and to Diana.

She was in an awkward place because of the debacle with Obsession (and yes, she leveled with him there, but those thoughts don't go away like that) and the fact that he... you know, goes all around the galaxy for unspoken periods of time, with the power to obtain anything he wants. You mention that she's a great person on her own, but being insecure isn't about being unworthy or a bad person.

On the flip side, Diana was set up to pine after a married man who was NEVER going to leave his wife for her and who always, without question, made it known over and over again that she wasn't his first choice. This is distinctly why I have such a problem with Superman/Wonder Woman because she is NEVER his first choice (sorry shippers but it's true) and Wonder Woman deserves to be a man's first choice and she will never be the first choice for Superman. And I don't think she's the first choice for Batman either. At BEST, she winds up Clark's second choice/backup after the woman he truly loves dies or he can't be with her.

Diana was his first choice. He went on a date with Wonder Woman before he went on a date with Lois, as Clark or Superman. He literally dreamed about her. The inherent problem was his, that finding a normal relationship with a woman who couldn't understand or (later) exist in the world of Superman didn't necessarily seem manageable. This is what caused Lois to break the engagement and in #761, had him hint that there were things he felt Diana could understand that wouldn't be as easy with Lois. And that doesn't really throw him under the bus in the sense that technically, you could say 1999 was only about the second year of marriage. That's not long at all.

As for Diana pining for a married man, it was countless years. The temptation was only logical BUT... she didn't put herself out there. They glance and when he says he can't, she tells him it's perfectly fine.

The problem here is that it sets Clark up as the stud. Both women want him. He gets to be with his true love/wife but then this goddess is there on the sidelines who also wants him. So he looks cool and the women get pitted against each other and treated terribly. It's not ok.

That's Superman, wish fulfillment for 80 years this spring. I can't imagine the crazy fan mail a handsome star like Cavill gets, so I really cant imagine what people would say to him if he could do half the things he does on screen. But Lois, Clark, and Diana are all "studs" and there are plenty of people in plenty of stories who want them, never mind the people we don't see depicted who would want them. Lois being in that group, and having the most desired man in the world devoted to her, is despite being a very normal human. That story is about how she's worth it.

I like that story, but it doesn't get me misty eyed. It's a little surprising to me that it hits the other end of the spectrum, where it sounds like it infuriates people. But, you know, different strokes.

It's funny that King didn't even read that story. To do that with Batman just sounds awkward.

[SiegePerilous02]

King can be a bit of a troll at times. See his smack talk about Superman a while back, and the end result was a couple guest appearances that a lot of people on here really liked. Some moreso than Clark as written in his solo book. There was also his ranking of the Bat family by fighting prowess, which was clearly done to get people riled up. These tweets confirming the similarities to Action's story may be another troll job and we're in for a surprise. The original article seemed kind of click baity so maybe he's fanning the flames for shits and giggles? If I were him, I'd probably do it. Comic fans are so easy.

At least, this is what i REALLY hope he is doing.

[Sacred Knight]

I wasn't familiar with his social media style beforehand. If he does indeed have a history with that, that's good enough for me to hang onto as a hope. Better than nothing I suppose. He DID do a solid by Clark and Lois. That's a pretty much universal sentiment. I haven't seen a bad thing said about how they came across. Hearts crossed he does the same by Diana.

[Nelliebly]

Diana was his first choice. He went on a date with Wonder Woman before he went on a date with Lois, as Clark or Superman. He literally dreamed about her. The inherent problem was his, that finding a normal relationship with a woman who couldn't understand or (later) exist in the world of Superman didn't necessarily seem manageable. This is what caused Lois to break the engagement and in #761, had him hint that there were things he felt Diana could understand that wouldn't be as easy with Lois. And that doesn't really throw him under the bus in the sense that technically, you could say 1999 was only about the second year of marriage.

It's funny that King didn't even read that story. To do that with Batman just sounds awkward.

No, Diana was not his “first choice.” That’s like saying my husband wasn’t my “first choice” because I went on a date with another man I found attractive before we were together. That’s ridiculous and that’s not remotely how love works. Clark didn’t marry Lois because he wanted Diana and couldn’t have her! He married Lois because he LOVED Lois and wanted to be with her more than anyone else. My husband is the love of my life. It doesn’t matter that I went on one date or felt attraction to other men before him. It doesn’t mean that at ALL.

The “problem” here is that Clark loves Lois and you can’t “think” that into making sense because that’s not how emotions work. He has always loved Lois. When push comes to shove, he wants to BE with Lois. Clark is like many real life people who, at times, tried to think with his head and not with his heart. He expected love to be “logical” and love is NOT logical. We don’t fall in love with people because they are exactly like us —many times we fall in love with people who are nothing like us but our hearts are connected.
Clark Kent will always choose Lois. That’s where his heart is. And I absolutely judge writing that pits two women against each other like this because it’s sexist. I never EVER read Action 761 as even hinting that he thought there were things that would be “easier” with Diana but the fact that we are even having this conversation is proof of just how terrible and sexist the writing was that it could set Lois up for that kind of unfair interpretation.

This kind of crap is exactly why I hate this story and it’s honestly painful to watch all this sexist crap dragged up again after thinking we were finally over it. Ugh.

[Nelliebly]

I wasn't familiar with his social media style beforehand. If he does indeed have a history with that, that's good enough for me to hang onto as a hope. Better than nothing I suppose. He DID do a solid by Clark and Lois. That's a pretty much universal sentiment. I haven't seen a bad thing said about how they came across. Hearts crossed he does the same by Diana.

The thing is...I don’t think any of these guys purposefully write hurtful stuff. That’s the problem. Some of this sexism is so deeply entrenched in the culture that these guys don’t even realize they are a part of it. I believe Tom King cares about Wonder Woman just as I believe he cares about Lois Lane and Selina. But...sometimes these guys still fall into this sexist tropes. All we can do is wait, I guess.

[Kuwagaton]

No, Diana was not his “first choice.” That’s like saying my husband wasn’t my “first choice” because I went on a date with another man I found attractive before we were together. That’s ridiculous and that’s not remotely how love works. Clark didn’t marry Lois because he wanted Diana and couldn’t have her! He married Lois because he LOVED Lois and wanted to be with her more than anyone else. My husband is the love of my life. It doesn’t matter that I went on one date or felt attraction to other men before him. It doesn’t mean that at ALL.

Oh, I don't know what things happened in your case because I wasn't there for a second of it. But I think most people go on dates with others before they meet their spouse, not after. That's how it was for me, at least.

Clark pursued Diana when he already knew Lois for years, and when he came to understand that he didn't have the right chemistry with Diana, it cleaned the slate. He didn't come around to Lois until after she decided that she liked him and made the first move. Maybe he would have always ended up with Lois, but there was a chance with Diana before anything.

The “problem” here is that Clark loves Lois and you can’t “think” that into making sense because that’s not how emotions work. He has always loved Lois. When push comes to shove, he wants to BE with Lois. Clark is like many real life people who, at times, tried to think with his head and not with his heart. He expected love to be “logical” and love is NOT logical. We don’t fall in love with people because they are exactly like us —many times we fall in love with people who are nothing like us but our hearts are connected.

Okay. I don't really think that's something I was arguing against and think you have a good point.

Clark Kent will always choose Lois. That’s where his heart is. And I absolutely judge writing that pits two women against each other like this because it’s sexist. I never EVER read Action 761 as even hinting that he thought there were things that would be “easier” with Diana but the fact that we are even having this conversation is proof of just how terrible and sexist the writing was that it could set Lois up for that kind of unfair interpretation.

They weren't pit against each other. Lois respected Diana, and Diana respected Lois. And I don't follow what you mean. Just because you should be able to tell your spouse anything doesn't mean it will always be as comfortable as it is to tell someone else. And I guess you missed it, but that it what he says plain as day. It's difficult telling Lois that it's a trip that he may not come back from, but it's something a fellow superhero would understand.

This kind of crap is exactly why I hate this story and it’s honestly painful to watch all this sexist crap dragged up again after thinking we were finally over it. Ugh.

You aren't being forced to "watch" or participate in anything. I don't really get the idea of showing up in a discussion and talking about how much you hate having it.

[LadyP]

Action Comics 761 was extremely problematic and sexist but it's interesting to see it highlighted in such a biased a way that only points out how unfair it was to Wonder Woman (which it was) while ignoring how equally unfair and crappy all this stuff was for Lois. The truth is that Lois was just as much a victim of this misogyny as Diana was---a problem that the SM/WW fandom in many ways perpetuated, contributed to and continues to contribute to

We are not about to strawman this situation. Lois was not the one ultimately humiliated in AC #761. It was Diana. Diana is my character of concern, not Lois.
Now in response to the underlined portion, I have seen equally disgusting misogynistic statements made from supporters of Superman with Lois regarding Diana (a symbol of female empowerment might I add) and from some SMWW supporters regarding Lois. So we aren't going to do the whole pot calling the kettle black thing. I refuse.

This is interesting. Her interest bugged you? An interest that came about before Clark's relationship with Lois? One that Diana did not act on no less than Clark/Kal, so I'm curious by your choice of words. And might I add that it was an interest that wasn't one sided despite what Joe Kelly and a few other (Biased/Batman fan) writers wanted believed?

This is incorrect. The truth is that Clark expressed passion for Lois from the first moment he saw her in Bryne's Man of Steel comic. He can't place what he feels and he's taken aback by it and stunned but he knows that what he feels for her is real and powerful. The only reason that Clark had to "wait" to express how he felt in the Bryne reboot was distinctly because, in this reboot, Clark was considered the real person and he wanted to be with her as CLARK and not Superman.

Let me reiterate my statement about strawman tactic, please refrain from it. What are you stating is incorrect? What does anything you have stated here have to do with my statement above which you quoted? Once again I repeat, Diana’s interest in Clark/Kal/Superman (as was his interest in her) came BEFORE his Relationship with Lois. Clark was not in a romantic relationship with Lois when he first met Diana. At what point in time did I state he was not attracted to Lois early on? You state that “Clark expressed passion for Lois from the first moment he saw her in Bryne's Man of Steel comic,” conveniently leaving out that during Bryne's run as well, it was not too long after that Superman would meet Wonder Woman, for whom he will feel an immediate and intense attraction towards from the first time he saw her, to the point that he had recurring passionate dreams about her not too long after meeting her. Dreams that were so impacting he states that he had never had a dream that “tapped so deeply into [his] innermost feelings” (Superman v2 #5). So I’m really trying to understand the point you are making. A lot of the argument that you made in the quoted portion above easily applies to Superman and Wonder Woman during that time as well. However, as you somewhat alluded to, Superman saw himself mainly as Clark Kent more than anything else and as such forewent a relationship with Diana because he did not see himself as being good enough for her given her background and connection to gods and goddesses and he just being a guy from Kansas.

I have always found that to be such a cheap ‘cop out’ for lack of a better word. What I loved about Superman and Wonder Woman’s dynamic during the post-crisis era was how well they bonded and connected because they came to know and understand each other on a level that was deep despite not being romantically involved. They got each other in a way that no one else did, some try to debate this, but I stand by my statement. It was something that was beautiful and it was evident as was shown in various situation that even after his marriage to Lois, (something I have never supported, especially as writers have now sought to make her something more than she originally was intended to be by using the falsified grounding claims, however, that is a topic for another day), he still had unresolved feelings for Diana.

Once Clark expressed his love for Lois and they were married, AT NO TIME, did he express he wanted to leave Lois to be with Wonder Woman. In fact, what the narrative repeatedly showed was that, though he cared for her very much, his heart belonged to Lois and it was Lois he would choose over and over and over again. The narrative humiliated Wonder Woman but it also humiliated Lois as it set up a situation where fans started to root for Superman to cheat on a woman who had done nothing wrong and who he truly did love and wanted to be with.

Who mentioned anything about him expressing leaving Lois or are you just making a statement? I definitely concur that there have been writers who have set out to intentionally have Diana rejected and demeaned in order to prop up Superman with Lois and as such I will never be a supporter of that pairing. I can’t speak for those who would want Superman to cheat, Diana is too honorable to allow for that. However, I was content during that time with the belief that Lois would eventually age and pass, and as such, Diana would eventually get to have the relationship she deserved with her best friend Kal. However, with the reboots and tweaking of timelines and events, the friendship which I so cherished between the two no longer even exists. Which I find disdainful and highly disappointing. Nevertheless, that is by the way.

Diana's crush was inappropriate distinctly because it was male writers setting her up over and over again to pine for married man which was both inappropriate and unbecoming. Wonder Woman is supposed to be first and foremost about sisterhood and she never should have been put in this kind of position as it was both unfair to HER and it was unfair to Lois. So the writing of this should absolutely be criticized but it should be criticized with the recognition that it was unfair and sexist to both women here and not just Wonder Woman.

What I will say in response to the bolded portion of your statement is that in real life, you cannot help who you become attracted to, however, you can control how you respond to that attraction. We saw this with Diana. Calling it inappropriate is uncalled for. Diana’s feelings for Kal once again, started before his relationship with Lois. Initially, she was unfamiliar with what she was feeling having only recently arrived in ‘patriarch’s world’ so she didn’t know what to do with them. By the time she really understood her feelings for Kal, he was already involved with Lois and would eventually marry her. Despite having underlying feelings for him, Diana still was a confidante to Kal encouraging him at separate times about his relationship with Lois, especially during a time they were on a break (not sure what caused the breakup) and she could have easily sought a romantic relationship then. That speaks to the kind of woman Diana’s character is. A class act. A thoughtful and caring one. Seeking the best interest of others even if it means that it comes at a disadvantage to her. So yes, it is unfair that there are writers who have diminished Diana, because she is the character who ultimately suffered, in order to push their own agenda whether by propping up Superman and Lois because they genuinely preferred that pairing, or propping it up because they wanted to pave the way to pairing Wonder Woman with Batman (something I will continue to be vehemently be against for a multitude of reasons).

It's one thing to be biased, but another when you try to twist information that is easily retrievable. I believe you are referencing the scan from Superman 80-Page Giant Vol 1 2 which by your statement it seems you haven't read. In the aforementioned comic, Clark/Kal seeks out Diana to talk about unresolved things between the two of them. Diana admits to being distant towards him reminding him that ever since they had the shared dream in which they fell in love and got married (refer back to Wonder Woman v2 #141), she has been more private towards him. This is something that he obviously picked up on because it bothered him enough for him to seek her out.

What you've left out here is that when Superman is forced to confront his true feelings and heart's desire the image that is reflected back to him is Lois. Lois is the dream of his heart. The dreams weren't real and they were not reflecting his true heart. The story was cruel to Wonder Woman as it humiliated her and, once again, set her up to be in love with a married man and they were equally as cruel to Lois. So Superman gets to still remain the hero who is in love with and devoted to his wife, Wonder Woman gets to appear heartbroken and Lois gets to be made out to be a fool on the outside. None of this was OK.

I responded based on the statement that was made which implied that Diana was acting inappropriately as if she were bringing up some random [I]vision[/] she had about getting married to Superman and having kids. As that information has nothing to do with the statement or response it wasn’t needed. However, as I the individual didn’t appear to have actually read the comics because if he had, he would have not made that statement and would have known about that conclusion, another instance in which Diana was disrespected and made to seem inconsequential in order to prop up Superman and Lois.

[LadyP]

This is especially telling. Clark put her in her place? What kind of misogynistic statement is that? There is so much that is troubling with this statement that if I started to address it, I may end up writing an entire chapter. However, I will add that at no point in time during AC #761 did we get Diana's p.o.v to determine what she realized or didn't realize. Furthermore, even after the events of AC#761 and despite Superman's 'great love' for Lois, he still withheld the information from Lois that he was with Diana when he got trapped in Valhalla in the 1000 years war. Of which he was impacted by the events that he gave Diana a miniature Mjolnir in remembrance of their time there and as a thank you. Anyway, thank you for highlighting why AC #761 is problematic. Thank you for confirming why I am not incorrect in taking issue with certain storylines because of the negative and somewhat toxic perception and mindset it tends to bring forth.

Action Comics 761 ::was:: misogynistic but the problem with your responses is that you are being selective about how you respond to it because of what you ship. Putting "great love" in quotes is not appreciated. The truth is that Clark ::did:: love Lois a great deal, never wanted to be with anyone else and never implied otherwise. The writing was misogynistic distinctly because it played into this idea that Wonder Woman was a fantasy object "temptation" for the men when, in fact, he was faithful to his wife and loved her. And it put Lois in the horrible position of being forced to appear "jealous" when she had no reason to be jealous because her love and marriage was completely secure. Finally, it put Wonder Woman in the position of making a pass at a married man which was inappropriate and unfair to her. It's a problematic issue in which the man comes out looking great and the two women are deeply mistreated so that the man can look cool.

I’m being selective in how I respond? By expressing how I feel about a plot contrivance that states a man who had been away for 1,000 years, who didn’t know whether he was going to live or die after the impending battle he was going to face, and who had no idea he would ever return to the real world would claim that even though a great length of time had passed in which no mortal who was alive before then, would still be alive he was stuck on one woman? That’s supposed to be romantic? Admirable? I think not. The beauty of life is its continuity. That even after pain and loss people are still able to find joy and meaning and that life goes on. DC has gone to great length to showcase Superman as the symbol of hope. Stating that he is unable to move on, to grow, to live, to love again because of a woman despite the incredible amount of time that has passed is troubling to me. I don't find it inspiring, I find it disturbing. If the situation were reversed and Diana or another female character was not able to move on and love again after her loved one had been gone for that same amount of time wouldn’t people be outraged? I know I would. It is the same prevailing toxic ideology seen in AC #761 that has given rise to what we currently see with the Injustice series. I find it diminishing to suggest that a person not being able to move on or would be so stuck/dependent on an individual that s/he is not able to function once that person is gone. That is toxic and speaks of crippling dependency. Mourning is natural, so is missing a person. However, it is when that lasts for too long that it becomes problematic. So color me unimpressed. Especially as this was done in order to make it seem that any feelings or attractions by Diana were completely one sided despite the fact that we would see even after that storyline, that Kal’s feelings for Diana was not just based on mere friendship, it ran deeper and was more complicated than that. And to be honest it should be. Diana and Kal never got to explore their romantic feelings for one another. She is a woman, and a very beautiful one at that. She was literally a symbol of female perfection. But more than that, she was goodness and kindness personified. Fierce and protective. Loving and nurturing. She sought the good in everybody. She was compassionate and humble. Why wouldn’t Kal be attracted to her? Especially, he being a man that was humble and compassionate why would he not be drawn to a strong, loving, and compassionate woman that is Diana? Further yet, a woman who has been his best friend? Who has fought alongside with him in many battles, and they were each others confidant? Shared similar goals and values, however, with differing ideologies that they challenged each others perspective?
So yes, once again, Diana was, has, and continues to be unfairly treated by the writers at DC especially the fanboy writers in order to prop up a traditional status quo. As such, I will never be okay with that.

The truth is that the only true POV we get from Wonder Woman AND Lois is in the follow-up "Day in the Life" issue written by both Jiminez and Kelly. It's been heralded by many as one of the greatest Wonder Woman books ever and, to be honest, I've never agreed that's true. I think people think highly of it distinctly because we don't get nearly enough of Diana and Lois ever together and so people clung to them being together in one issue. But the truth is that it was deeply sexist to take DC's two oldest and most iconic women and have them spend the entire issue talking only about a man. It was unfair to put Lois in that position and it was unfair to put Diana in that position.
The sexism here is that Clark Kent was a married man who was truly and deeply devoted to his wife. It was unfair to Lois to keep teasing this idea that Wonder Woman might want him. It was unfair to Wonder Woman---a woman who's own love interest had been aged up and gutted from her own mythos---to be forced to harbor a crush on a married man who was NEVER going to return her feelings the way she wanted. It was unfair to the entire Superman narrative and it was the work of a lot of sexism that didn't belong in the book.

You speak about misogyny and sexism, and how unfair Lois is treated, and I say it is telling that a woman like Diana would be relegated to the back burner for Lois Lane. Why? The characterization of Lois Lane is one that I have never really cared much for. I am not and never have been inspired by her. I hate the idea that as women, in order to show that we are strong it is believed that we must be aggressive or rude or brash or condescending. All of which were/are the characteristics of Lois Lane. There is a difference in being assertive versus being disrespectful to show strength and confidence. Some people seem to think that it is unthinkable that a person can be kind, compassionate, loving/amenable, and still be strong and fierce. That is evident in how Wonder Woman has gotten mis-characterized in recent years in the comics, which hopefully with the wild success of the Wonder Woman movie, will change. Nevertheless, going back, as women, we are multifaceted and layered. We can be strong yet gentle. Loving yet fierce. Compassionate yet formidable. Nurturers and protectors. This is what Diana portrayed. That was the purpose for the creation of her character, to highlight the positive traits of women, of which Lois on the other hand is an antithesis to Diana. Circling back to your comment about misogyny and sexism, why would Diana, a woman who was all these things that most women would aspire to be be relegated to the back burner if not due to sexist ideologies? That is Diana, would be rejected for being ‘too good,’ or ‘too perfect,’ for a woman who in many ways could not measure up to her many positive attributes? It reminds me of the saying “nice girls finish last.” A saying that I find diminishing as it seeks to undermine and ridicule the impact of being good to others and treating people with respect. It highlights the inherent sexism that exists. If a woman is successful, and has it all together, she usually has a harder time finding a good partner who wouldn’t be intimidated by her. It also calls to mind of how women used to be told (and still get told) not to sound too smart in order to not “scare off” a man.

Anyway, I will end here.

[LadyP]

LadyP, all I have to say is that we have vastly different impressions of the Immortal Beloved arc. I never got the sense that Clark was falling out of love for Lois and into love with Diana.

I no point in time do I state this. Please go back and reread my comment and what it was in response to.

What bothers me is that the story doesn't deserve the kind of defense you're giving it, which seems motivated mostly by shipping preferences. Even though I am a Clois shipper, I have a hard time celebrating the Action Comics arc despite its Clois validating conclusion.

Once again, I say go back and reread my comments. You will know that I certainly do not support AC #761, especially for the way it disrespected Diana.
Good day.

[LadyP]

Diana assures him that it isn't silly that he felt the way he did. She tells him "it's perfect. It's right..." She knows the kind of man Clark/Kal is at heart, and his response confirms that. However, in response to your it's also conveyed silently throughout the pages that Diana wanted something from Clark that he couldn't..and wouldn't, give he, did we read the same story? You mean the one in which as time passed during their stay in Valhalla it is highlighted how Clark/Kal became more and more aware of Diana? How she smelled? How she felt? Juxtaposed with how he was beginning to forget bits and pieces of things about Lois? It's also stated that an unbreakable bond was forged between Kal and Diana. Yet somehow it's all about how Diana wanted something he wouldn't give?

But...she did want something he couldn't give. She wanted his heart and he couldn't give it to her. The "bond" between them was not romantic love. It was deep friendship, family and that's a pure and wonderful kind of love. But that doesn't mean he wanted to leave his wife for her because he didn't. I'm struggling with your responses a lot here because, on the one hand, I agree with you that there was a lot of misogyny in these storylines but you only seem to able to discuss it from a SM/WW ship POV and that's a problem because what you are missing is that Lois was just as much a victim here as Diana. These stories were extremely unfair to her and the writing was very manipulative distinctly in the way you both are reacting to it. I don't agree with the way the OP is dismissing the sexism but you are equally as wrong here.

I honestly do not have the energy nor the inclination to have continue to state not to strawman my comments. Did I state that Diana did not want something? My statement was in regards to how the individual I was responding was making AC #761 all about how Diana wanted something from Kal that he wouldn’t give and about him “putting her in her place.” I won’t even respond to the rest of what you stated in this portion of your reply, because your issue seems to be with the fact that I am focusing on how Diana was demeaned and not Lois. I do not apologize about that. Please refer back to my other response to you as to why.

If Kal knew he had nothing to hide, he would have been upfront about it right away. Nothing speaks more of guilt than the omission of pertinent details. Lois' fear stemmed from her own insecurity regarding Diana who had always been nothing but kindness personified towards her (even in the face Lois' hostilities and rudeness Diana did not respond in kind and instead extended her hand to Lois in friendship - as seen in Wonder Woman v2 #170, where Diana inadvertently revealed that she was there with Kal in the 1000 years war believing Lois already knew. Because that is to be expected in a relationship where it is believed there should be full transparency). If I found out my husband withheld such an information, I would be very suspicious. And finding out from the woman herself wouldn't make it better, 'sisterhood or not.' It would make me angry and would give me a reason to question why he would hide such a thing in the first place.

Oh good grief. It's astounding to me that you can attempt to discuss the sexism in these storylines but not recognize how sexist the narrative and writing also was to Lois. And this is the problem with your arguments.

You can be astounded all you want but I am not making this about Lois. It’s late, I’m tired so I am not writing another essay to justify my POV. I have stated what I have to say.

Lois was set up here to look bad and that's extremely unfair. You need to release your shipper biases here for a minute and understand that this was unfair writing of her and writing no more true to her than some of the terrible writing for Diana.

I am almost amused by this. But okay. Yes it is my bias :::shrugs:::

As for Lois being "rude"---that's also extremely unfair. The hard truth is that Lois's suspicions are proven RIGHT in this story. She suspects that Diana wants her husband and she is proven right when Diana makes the pass at him.

Sigh...Lois was rude. Yes. Hostile towards Diana, yes. Her insecurity and jealousy of Diana is something that predates the post-crisis era. Nevertheless, circling back regarding Lois’ ‘suspicions’ being proven right. No. I refute that. Stating that Diana “wants her husband” implies that she is actively trying to “snatch him up.” That is not the case. In AC #761, Diana is not making a pass at a married man. For all intent and purposes they were both single due to the passage of time since they had been in Valhalla. Meaning any love interest they had beforehand was long dead and gone.

I refuse to legitimize such an inane and contrived plot line. So I will speak no further on that subject than this.
As to your comment regarding where my loyalties lie...excuse me, but what?

It's no more inane or contrived than any other story including narratives where Lois is killed off so that Clark can hook up with Wonder Woman. All of these stories are contrived and it would help if we could all recognize that our emotional reactions to them are deeply dictated by our preferences. As for your "loyalities"---I imagine he's referring to the fact that you seem too biased towards SM/WW to recognize how unfair these stories were to Lois too. A problem I also have with your responses even though I don't agree with him either.

By that logic every single comic book story is contrived (which it is by the way). However, at least some are realistic and relatable enough to not appear mawkish and heavy handed. AC #761 was not such an instance. Ask for my bias, how many time have you now brought up Lois to ramrod about how “unfairly” she too has been treated? I am biased because I focus on Diana, who almost always tends to get the short end of the stick? Okay then.

This is where I ask again if we read the same story? Once again, I understand bias, but these false and disgusting remarks you keep making in regards to Diana I am not okay with. I will point out however, that no, they did not know they were going to survive the battle and return home(it was literally stated in that panel, as well as reiterated in WW v2 #170). And if they did survive and return home, they had no idea what they would meet on the other side because a large amount of time had passed and for all they were aware, everyone they knew were long gone. As much as you try to put her down, it's a testament to Diana's honor that she didn't ridicule Kal or press the issue bearing in mind everything I just said. Some people are easily swayed by plot contrivances, I'm not one of them. But go ahead and keep trying to demean Diana and making it about how "inappropriate" she was being while extolling how much of a gentleman Clark was. Your prejudice is not showing at all (please note the sarcasm).

I mean, I don't think WE read the same story either as you seem convinced that it is some kind of proof that Superman loved Wonder Woman and I never in a thousand years (haha) got that take from it. Quite the opposite actually. The story reiterated that Clark's heart belonged to Lois and Lois alone.

I read my comment above and then I read your reply, then I go back to my comment which you did quote, and then return back to yours and know that I got trolled. On that note, I bid you goodnight.