WW vs Kryptonians

[Doctor Bifrost]

Magic doesn't hurt Superman more than.anyone else. It just circumvents his invulnerability.

This depends very much on which version you happen to be reading. In some versions (the ones that make the most sense to me) magic affects Superman as easily as it affects anyone else - but not more easily. However, in other versions, he is especially vulnerable to magic (more than the average human being is), or even is weakened by the mere presence of magic. Each of these versions has been depicted multiple times in DCU history.

Lightning is lightning, whether created by magic or science. A lightning bolt shouldn't hurt him more than anyone else.

I don't think the first part is necessarily true. Lightning from a supernatural source may be infused with magic in any of a number of ways, enabling it to have greater affect, or additional affects, on the targets it hits. The second part is the way I would like to see magical effects work with Superman, but even as stated it's fairly strong - since an ordinary lightning bolt wouldn't (in most versions) affect Superman much, or at all, but a magical one would probably affect him more than that.

[Amazon Swordsman]

People keep saying "experience/training" as if that's the be all, end all in these kinds of exchanges. I'm not saying that's an unimportant factor to consider, but sometimes it's not the most skilled/experienced fighter who wins fights. Sometimes, power is the deciding thing in fights, not to mention that just saying "experience/training" is not very specific on the surface.

It's like lipservice in a way...WW is supposed to be "the best melee fighter etc etc..." but what exactly does this mean, and where are the examples of this?

I think if she's generally weaker than they are in raw strength, it's good to determine exactly by how much, and go from there covering her blind spots.

[Lex Luthor]

People keep saying "experience/training" as if that's the be all, end all in these kinds of exchanges. I'm not saying that's an unimportant factor to consider, but sometimes it's not the most skilled/experienced fighter who wins fights. Sometimes, power is the deciding thing in fights, not to mention that just saying "experience/training" is not very specific on the surface.

It's like lipservice in a way...WW is supposed to be "the best melee fighter etc etc..." but what exactly does this mean, and where are the examples of this?

I think if she's generally weaker than they are in raw strength, it's good to determine exactly by how much, and go from there covering her blind spots.

I agree. I think Diana beating a kryptonian by skill alone makes sense if they are a lower leveled/less respected kryptonian but it usually doesnt make much sense if its someone like clark thats facing off against her he has all those power advantageous(sights,laser blasts, senses, invulnerability,raw strength, and speed) plus he is somewhat skilled in fighting himself.

I cant even recall many times when she flat out won either a tie or shes out of her league.

[Sacred Knight]

Experience and training isn't the end all be all, but then again to be fair that wasn't what the question was. It was just what specific advantages could she conceivably have, and that is one of them. If not the only one. Doesn't mean its always the great equalizer, but it is a potential advantage.

[Vanguard-01]

"Skill, Training, and Planning" are the be all/end all for how Batman routinely humiliates Superman and every other major powerhouse in the DCU.

Why does it work for him, but not for Diana? She at least has superhuman stats to make it more plausible.

[Lex Luthor]

"Skill, Training, and Planning" are the be all/end all for how Batman routinely humiliates Superman and every other major powerhouse in the DCU.

Why does it work for him, but not for Diana? She at least has superhuman stats to make it more plausible.

She doesnt exploit his weaknesses like Bruce does so she wont be able to win like him but this is really an apples vs orange comparison.

[Amazon Swordsman]

"Skill, Training, and Planning" are the be all/end all for how Batman routinely humiliates Superman and every other major powerhouse in the DCU.

Why does it work for him, but not for Diana? She at least has superhuman stats to make it more plausible.

It works for him because he has the added privilege of being "the world's greatest detective", because of the whole notion of "prep time", always having contigencies, and he's more popular. Oh, and can't forget "he's the got d*mn batman!"

Okay I'm done lol no...but seriously, what kinds of skills give her an advantage over Kryptonians? We say her years of amazon training give her an edge, but what is it about that training that gives her an advantage? Are we going off the older version of amazon training that could make any normal woman into a super strong one? Or are we talking about the training where the amazons channel mental energy into their muscles? I did like that line from WW, can't remeber where it's from, but she said "the only thing stronger than super strength is the power of the brain". It would be interesting to see more of that displayed creatively.

Planning? Okay...only reason why I wanted things to be a little more specific is because these qualities seem quite vague on the surface.

[raidensix]

This depends very much on which version you happen to be reading. In some versions (the ones that make the most sense to me) magic affects Superman as easily as it affects anyone else - but not more easily. However, in other versions, he is especially vulnerable to magic (more than the average human being is), or even is weakened by the mere presence of magic. Each of these versions has been depicted multiple times in DCU history.



I don't think the first part is necessarily true. Lightning from a supernatural source may be infused with magic in any of a number of ways, enabling it to have greater affect, or additional affects, on the targets it hits. The second part is the way I would like to see magical effects work with Superman, but even as stated it's fairly strong - since an ordinary lightning bolt wouldn't (in most versions) affect Superman much, or at all, but a magical one would probably affect him more than that.

That's the problem with today's Superman writers, their first step is always to weaken him regardless how ridiculous the means. Magic should not be an automatic vulnerability to Kryptonians. Magic has rules, a specific spell for a specific effect. Making someone capable of lifting 100 tons should do precisely that, make the person super strong. To Kryptonians, that should just be fighting another super strong being. However, writers make it so just the mere presence of magic is an issue for Superman. Sometimes, it's like a pebble enchanted to glow in the dark is lethal to Superman.

[Sacred Knight]

"Skill, Training, and Planning" are the be all/end all for how Batman routinely humiliates Superman and every other major powerhouse in the DCU.

Why does it work for him, but not for Diana? She at least has superhuman stats to make it more plausible.

I guess I'll add the disclaimer that anything I discuss here is under the assumption that we're basing this off of an approach of sense, looking as logically as possible at an individual character and both their strengths and weaknesses. Batman is a situation where he's just the best at everything because he's the most popular character, any sort of logic based on his strengths and weaknesses vs the strength and weaknesses of potential opponents be damned.

[Phoenixx9]

How does WW compare to strong female Krypts like Ursa and Power Girl?

[Lex Luthor]

How does WW compare to strong female Krypts like Ursa and Power Girl?

I know she beat Powergirl in Simone's run and they seemed to be pretty much equal in terms of strength but Idk about Ursa. She did fight both Zod and Faora in the SM/WW book at the same time and was winning before superman joined in

[theoneandonly]

Magic doesn't hurt Superman more than.anyone else. It just circumvents his invulnerability.

Lightning is lightning, whether created by magic or science. A lightning bolt shouldn't hurt him more than anyone else.

yes it circumvents his invulnerability so technically a magical lightning bolt should fry him like a ordinary lightning strike would do to a normal person. Anyway no matter how you rationalise it C.M. has been able to knock him out taking advantage of this vulnerability unless you count the fight in the eclipso darkness within storyline where he beat the tar out of him but then he was possessed by eclipso which must have overcome his specific weakness.

[marhawkman]

"Skill, Training, and Planning" are the be all/end all for how Batman routinely humiliates Superman and every other major powerhouse in the DCU.

Why does it work for him, but not for Diana? She at least has superhuman stats to make it more plausible.

Because Bat-god, that's why.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Batman to beat even a Kryptonian like Nadira Va-Dim(who is utter rubbish at hand-to-hand) in a straight fist fight. You NEED a plot contrivance like Kryptonite, or something else or he simply can't hurt her. (Nadira and Azrel once demonstrated how much they suck at fighting by going at it 2-on-1 with Supergirl and LOSING)

Someone like Car-Vex? If Car-Vex comes for Batman's head, he'd better not blink or he won't even see what kills him. Batmn vs Superman fights tend to hinge on the fact that Superman doesn't want to kill or even injure Batman. Car-Vex? She might try to uppercut his skull into orbit, just the skull, not the rest of him.

Anyways, Bat-god tangent aside... WW vs Nadira? Yeah, that'd be a one-sided fight. Others like Car-Vex or Faora actually have combat skills though. Sure WW's training might be "better"... but that's a bit iffy. It's hard to forget that page from the comics where Car-Vex decided to massacre General Lane's soldiers. (as a weird note, it was also a scene where one of ZOD's flunkies acted as a HERO... sort of) Then we have Faora showing the puny Humans what it means to be bullet-proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqlaXylsMwQ&t=120s Not only does she toss them like rag-dolls, but they barely see it coming most of the time.

As an amusing side-note, Deva managed to punk WW by out-thinking her. So clearly WW is not Bat-god level in combat skill.

[mathew101281]

yes it circumvents his invulnerability so technically a magical lightning bolt should fry him like a ordinary lightning strike would do to a normal person. Anyway no matter how you rationalise it C.M. has been able to knock him out taking advantage of this vulnerability unless you count the fight in the eclipso darkness within storyline where he beat the tar out of him but then he was possessed by eclipso which must have overcome his specific weakness.

Exactly, that fight doesn’t make sense.

[Phoenixx9]

I know she beat Powergirl in Simone's run and they seemed to be pretty much equal in terms of strength but Idk about Ursa. She did fight both Zod and Faora in the SM/WW book at the same time and was winning before superman joined in

Thanks, Gemini.

So WW is probably equal to the strongest female Kryptonians, stronger than average and untrained Kryptonians, equal to average male Kryptonians and slightly weaker than strong/trained male Kryptonians like Superman?