What Does Marvel Have Against Magic Being Magic?

[Frontier]

I can deal with it so long as they don't take it too far or completely take all the fantastical out of it.

Like, say, a science-based character "hacking" magic.

[OptimusPrime114]

I can deal with it so long as they don't take it too far or completely take all the fantastical out of it.

Like, say, a science-based character "hacking" magic.

Actually, Shuri did just that while fighting Baron Mordo in last week's episode of Avengers: Secret Wars.

[Frontier]

Actually, Shuri did just that while fighting Baron Mordo in last week's episode of Avengers: Secret Wars.

That's exactly what I was referencing .

[GodThor]

Actually, Shuri did just that while fighting Baron Mordo in last week's episode of Avengers: Secret Wars.

That's exactly what I was referencing .

lol guys, you watch Avengers Assemble!?

you nuts

freaking Thanos with fully powered Infinity Gauntlet was beaten by a freaking robot

[Huntsman Spider]

That's exactly what I was referencing .

Or Warren Ellis in Planetary (or something else like that) referring to magic as basically the "cheat codes of the universe," or "hacking reality," though the latter reference could have been from Buffy the Vampire Slayer vis-à-vis Willow, computer hacker turned ultra-powerful witch.

To answer the OP, though, my take on it is that, at least for the MCU, Marvel doesn't want to seem like they're promoting paganism by having Thor and other Norse gods as actual characters, let alone heroes, in the Marvel Universe, so they "justify" their feats and abilities by saying "it's just science we don't understand yet, and they're actually aliens." Not to mention the idea of promoting witchcraft by having the likes of Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme as a heroic character, so again, "it's just science we don't understand yet." If this sounds silly, that's because it is, but those are the concessions you have to make when making films for a primarily American audience, considering the roving bands of angry and paranoid parents/adults who suspect everything in entertainment is trying to "corrupt the children."

[Frontier]

lol guys, you watch Avengers Assemble!?

you nuts

freaking Thanos with fully powered Infinity Gauntlet was beaten by a freaking robot

And then randomly transformed into Ultron out-of-nowhere .

The actual fight with Thanos was pretty good though.

[GodThor]

And then randomly transformed into Ultron out-of-nowhere .

The actual fight with Thanos was pretty good though.

yeah, so good to the point I dropped that series.

[OptimusPrime114]

Or Warren Ellis in Planetary (or something else like that) referring to magic as basically the "cheat codes of the universe," or "hacking reality," though the latter reference could have been from Buffy the Vampire Slayer vis-à-vis Willow, computer hacker turned ultra-powerful witch.

To answer the OP, though, my take on it is that, at least for the MCU, Marvel doesn't want to seem like they're promoting paganism by having Thor and other Norse gods as actual characters, let alone heroes, in the Marvel Universe, so they "justify" their feats and abilities by saying "it's just science we don't understand yet, and they're actually aliens." Not to mention the idea of promoting witchcraft by having the likes of Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme as a heroic character, so again, "it's just science we don't understand yet." If this sounds silly, that's because it is, but those are the concessions you have to make when making films for a primarily American audience, considering the roving bands of angry and paranoid parents/adults who suspect everything in entertainment is trying to "corrupt the children."

Point taken. I remember parents had a fit when Harry Potter debuted.

[Huntsman Spider]

Point taken. I remember parents had a fit when Harry Potter debuted.

Yeah, I was around for those days. It wasn't fun.

[Drops Of Venus]

This is an issue of the MCU, not the comics. The comics have plenty of magic. I guess the idea is verisimilitude. I guess they're worried it's one too many things they're asking people to accept.

Pretty much this. Comics acknowledge magic as magic, it just really depends on what character you're reading. I mean, if everyone just believed in everything magical in the MU, then we wouldn't really have characters being atheists or believing in monotheistic religions, for example. I mean, how is Tony Stark an atheist? How is Daredevil a christian? They know Thor exists, so how you do you explain their religious beliefs? It's just easier to assume that, to them, Thor is not really a god, or at least not the god they were taught to believe in. I actually like this subjectivity, because it makes the MU feel more like real life.

I don’t in any event even think the MCU has so much of a problem with that now; in the latest Thor movie, you got far less of an impression of the Asgardians being simply beneficiaries of advanced science from the scenes with Odin.

Well, that was the 3rd Thor movie, so they didn't really need to hit us over the head with the ''they're just advanced aliens! This is just advanced science!'' because they assume the audience already knows. But take the first Doctor Strange movie, for example: the Acient One gave a very scientific-y explanation to magic. When Ghost Rider debuted on AOS, the showrunners made sure to try to show things from a scientific perspective too. Same thing happened to the Staff Of One in Runaways more recently. I think the Netflix shows might've been the only ones that introduced mystical concepts (The Hand, K'un-Lun, etc) without trying to give them any scientifical explanation (or maybe they did and I just don't remember). Overall, I'd say that yes, the MCU still hesitates in selling magic as magic.

To answer the OP, though, my take on it is that, at least for the MCU, Marvel doesn't want to seem like they're promoting paganism by having Thor and other Norse gods as actual characters, let alone heroes, in the Marvel Universe, so they "justify" their feats and abilities by saying "it's just science we don't understand yet, and they're actually aliens." Not to mention the idea of promoting witchcraft by having the likes of Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme as a heroic character, so again, "it's just science we don't understand yet." If this sounds silly, that's because it is, but those are the concessions you have to make when making films for a primarily American audience, considering the roving bands of angry and paranoid parents/adults who suspect everything in entertainment is trying to "corrupt the children."

It's not even just an american thing. Marvel Studios has to cater to international markets too, so that means doing stuff that can be considered globally accepted. I mean, China alone with their crazy strict rules probably was responsible for a lot of decisions Marvel made for their movies: no genuine magic, no paganism, no chinese villain (Mandarin), no tibetan Ancient One, etc. One thing I also discovered recently is that the chinese also ban movies with TIME TRAVEL. No kidding, look it up. Stuff like going back in time a few minutes in Doctor Strange was probably allowed because it wasn't very complex, but if you ever dreamed of a Kang story in a movie, you can kiss it goodbye.

[Mike_Murdock]

The Hand's immortality is scientific (well, assuming dragons are scientific). The only thing arguably magical is harnessing your Chi.

[mike2112]

I am the only who see the debate about magic versus scince kinda pointless?. Because i always thought about magic as art o humanities, something closer to music, literature, language, dance, folklore. As i see science is about knowing the world and magic is about express yourself, i don,t see why both of them are mutually exclusive. Or why science have to be the gold standard of intellectual achivements of characters, Charles Xavier for example shouldn,t be considered great as a social commentator, or an humanitarian genius scholar?.

I remember a case about Julie Powers in the adventure universe, it was stated that she was really good at literature and despite being also good as science she was not passionate about it, so the book had to had the requesite science is cool chapter with a Beast cameo.

I always thought that Marvel kinda seems to see only science as the one an only measurement of intelligence of characters. Its kinda a way to put down characters who go to other options. I always admired more Matt Murdock as someone who was able to get into law being blind than as a vigilante for example.

[Drops Of Venus]

The Hand's immortality is scientific (well, assuming dragons are scientific). The only thing arguably magical is harnessing your Chi.

The idea of a dragon existing at all didn't sound scientific to me, honestly. Maybe they'll explain this better in the second season of Iron Fist. They showed us so little of K'un-Lun and its mythology in the first season, there are a lot of blanks to fill.

[MichaelC]

What magic is varies drastically from genre to genre.

In some stories, magic is the embodiment of wonder. It is antithetical to science, and just being around science can erode its power. For simplicity's sake, I'll call this Fairy Magic, though there are plenty of stories where fairies don't exist that use these rules for what magic is.

In other stories, magic is just an extension of science. In such stories, writing runes and pentagrams and hermetic chants are just as much a scientific method of performing certain feats as engineering. There is no conflict between science and magic in such settings, as magic is just using the valid scientific law that certain symbols and chants and finger waggling produces certain results in those universes. I'll call those the Hermetic universes for simplicity.

In yet other universes, magic is just another form of Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know. In those worlds, the line between magic and super-science tends to be blurry. There is no conflict between science and magic in such worlds. Rather, all the Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know are equally dangerous, and whether that is a scientific or magical Secret Man Was Not Meant to Know is trivial, irrelevant, and often not even particularly clear. I'll call this the Chthulu universes for simplicity.

In novels, one of these rulesets tends to be picked, and kept for the duration of the novel or novel series.

In comicbooks, the rules are switched randomly depending on the writer, what kind of story that writer wants to tell, editorial fiat, or whatever. You can't depend on the rules being consistent for five minutes when reading comicbooks.

Stories about The Hand tend to use the Chthulu model for magic. There are scientific and magical Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know, and the most vile and hubristic people mix them, damning themselves in return for temporal power.

[Thor-Ul]

It's not even just an american thing. Marvel Studios has to cater to international markets too, so that means doing stuff that can be considered globally accepted. I mean, China alone with their crazy strict rules probably was responsible for a lot of decisions Marvel made for their movies: no genuine magic, no paganism, no chinese villain (Mandarin), no tibetan Ancient One, etc. One thing I also discovered recently is that the chinese also ban movies with TIME TRAVEL. No kidding, look it up. Stuff like going back in time a few minutes in Doctor Strange was probably allowed because it wasn't very complex, but if you ever dreamed of a Kang story in a movie, you can kiss it goodbye.

I suppose it is very ideologically motivated. I mean, time travel stories implies the possibility of altering history or discovering than history is false. From there to think than history can be rewritten or it was rewritten can make you question official history and question the goverment authority. Modern Chinese goverment are not friends of that.

But back on topic, I also think than when a character talks about Magic being something they doesn't understand is more like the character defining his identity instead defining the magic. Magic in comics is a mcguffin to found easy solutions without search for difficult situations.

Quoting an infamous situation: "It's magic, we don't have to explain it".