What Does Marvel Have Against Magic Being Magic?

[MaximoffTrash]

This has not always been true.
Marvel went more than a decade before the Gaea character even existed (and she was just a generic Mother Nature character initially). And the Elder Gods as a concept wasn't even a thing until the 80's.

Yeah, but I mean after the Elder Gods mythos are complete.
And in Thor Annual 10 which explained the unified origin of Earth Deities/Demons.
I have accepted that as my way of understanding them.

Okay I may have mistaken your "for a long period of time" as saying they are like this for the recent years instead of "60-late 70s." My bad.

[Nazrel]

Everytime I hear a scientist in the Marvel Universe argue "Magic is Science We Just Don't Understand", it makes me wanna tear my hair out.

There's nothing scientific about the supernatural. Nothing. Why is Marvel constantly shoving this rhetoric down our throats?

Why can't magic in the Marvel Universe just be magic?

I think this is rooted in a misunderstanding of science on everybody's part. Science is merely the method one uses to understand the rules of the universe via replicable experiments, then practically apply them. Magic has rules, magic has replicable results, ergo magic is a science.

[JudicatorPrime]

In what universe does Reed Richards have trouble creating a weather controller?

Yes, but Mjolnir is not just a weather controller. That's the difference between Storm (the mutant) and Thor. Storm can create a storm, but only where the elements to do so exist. Thor with Mjolnir can create a storm any time, any where, where said elements exist or not, even in the vacuum of space. Given the theory that magic is just high level science, there may be an explanation for it. But it's so much cooler in my opinion to simply say that magic exists and a sufficiently powerful spell can bend the rules of physics and mechanical laws and the fabric of the universe itself. Tony or Reed may not accept that explanation ever, but I would prefer to establish that magic is not science at all. It stands alone as one of the fundamental forces of life and beyond.

[phonogram12]

I think this is rooted in a misunderstanding of science on everybody's part. Science is merely the method one uses to understand the rules of the universe via replicable experiments, then practically apply them. Magic has rules, magic has replicable results, ergo magic is a science.

I like this explanation best. One of the things I hate about magic so much in Marvel, DC, and the Buffy universe is that magic is capable of absolutely anything...until plot convenience dictates that in this ONE INSTANCE it's not. It just smacks of incredibly lazy storytelling, imho. My girlfriend who's a big Harry Potter fan tells me that the initially stated rules of magic in that universe are generally pretty well adhered to and this is just the way I prefer it, personally.

[Tulku]

I like this explanation best. One of the things I hate about magic so much in Marvel, DC, and the Buffy universe is that magic is capable of absolutely anything...until plot convenience dictates that in this ONE INSTANCE it's not. It just smacks of incredibly lazy storytelling, imho.

Another thing we are ignoring is that, in comics, science can do anything, too. A mutant uses an "image inducer" to make himself look more human...that's "science." A magician uses a spell to change his appearance, that's "magic." But the science is garbage and they may as well both be classified as magic. How many times has Reed Richards put together a new object with a lot of scientific-spounding terms to save the day? That's "science"...but if Doc Strange uncorks a new spell to save the day, that's magic and lazy writing. But the truth is that both are lazy writing. In comics, "science" is as magical as magic. A positronic alpha wave inducer can do whatever the writer decides a positronic alpha wave inducer can do.

The problem, as you point out, is lazy storytelling. It is not inherently a problem with using magic or science. It is a writer using an easy out rather than plotting something more substantial and satisfying.

[JudicatorPrime]

Another thing we are ignoring is that, in comics, science can do anything, too. A mutant uses an "image inducer" to make himself look more human...that's "science." A magician uses a spell to change his appearance, that's "magic." But the science is garbage and they may as well both be classified as magic. How many times has Reed Richards put together a new object with a lot of scientific-spounding terms to save the day? That's "science"...but if Doc Strange uncorks a new spell to save the day, that's magic and lazy writing. But the truth is that both are lazy writing. In comics, "science" is as magical as magic. A positronic alpha wave inducer can do whatever the writer decides a positronic alpha wave inducer can do.

The problem, as you point out, is lazy storytelling. It is not inherently a problem with using magic or science. It is a writer using an easy out rather than plotting something more substantial and satisfying.

Well said and QFT.

[JudicatorPrime]

Slightly off topic, but wasn't the Golden Age Green Lantern's ring originally a magically-based artifact, as where now all of the other Green Lantern rings are science based?

[phonogram12]

Another thing we are ignoring is that, in comics, science can do anything, too. A mutant uses an "image inducer" to make himself look more human...that's "science." A magician uses a spell to change his appearance, that's "magic." But the science is garbage and they may as well both be classified as magic. How many times has Reed Richards put together a new object with a lot of scientific-spounding terms to save the day? That's "science"...but if Doc Strange uncorks a new spell to save the day, that's magic and lazy writing. But the truth is that both are lazy writing. In comics, "science" is as magical as magic. A positronic alpha wave inducer can do whatever the writer decides a positronic alpha wave inducer can do.

The problem, as you point out, is lazy storytelling. It is not inherently a problem with using magic or science. It is a writer using an easy out rather than plotting something more substantial and satisfying.

Agreed. That said, I think this is why I like Nazrel's explanation that magic is a form of science. I dunno, I realize that this is my completely personal opinion, but when science is generally not allowed to fix a problem it's always been able to fix in the past in comics, I tend to accept that because when written well, science should have it's limitations. IMHO, the only limitations magic should have are those of the practitioner. I've always thought that the whole point of magic is to break the rules of reality. Once you start quantifying it and start applying rules to it across the board it might as well just be a science. And then once you become inconsistent with it for plot purposes, it becomes like that episode of The Simpsons where they're at a comic book convention and Lucy Lawless is asked a question she can't answer and her explanation is that a 'wizard did it.'

Like I said, though, just my opinion. Admittedly, I've never been the biggest fantasy fan.

[Triniking1234]

Slightly off topic, but wasn't the Golden Age Green Lantern's ring originally a magically-based artifact, as where now all of the other Green Lantern rings are science based?

Yeah. The Starheart.

http://greenlantern.wikia.com/wiki/Starheart

[JudicatorPrime]

Magic, like science, has many disciplines, and yes, some of those are rules based. But not all of them. As every fantasy reader knows, the most compelling magical stories establish a governing law and ecosystem in which magic thrives. But not all forms of magic are bounded disciplines. Indeed, what makes the villains so dastardly usually is that they've either violated those magical rules, or have found a way to transcend them altogether. The scientific equivalent of that is Doom or Thanos gaining ultimate power. Well, science shouldn't have a monopoly on that. Magic, too, has a path to omnipotence, even though we never see that very often with Marvel.

[Drops Of Venus]

And I wonder what their scientific breakdown of reality warping - magically based or otherwise -- would be? Reed should already have this researched, given that is one of Franklin's powers.

That's a good question. What Franklin does is quite the same as Chaos Magic and I always thought it was a little bit too much to be just explained as a mutant power.

It's not a real thing, there are Chinese movies about Time Travel released these years.(All pretty bad, but you get what I mean.)
Also Interstellar also deals with Time Travel and paradox, it never got banned.
Not even magic is really banned, China allow Fantasy movies like Harry Porter, Hobbits released.
The rules I can really confirm is that no ghosts/dead spirits in Chinese movies.(Doesn't really apply to foreign movies.)And no political sensitive stuff like Tibet-related stuff.

Well, I don't know how some movies might have gotten a pass, but the time travel ban IS a real thing, or at least that's what every possible media article was reporting back then:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/ri...ns-time-travel
http://travel.cnn.com/shanghai/life/...travel-274122/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...l-films-177801
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/13/...n-time-travel/

I thought that maybe it only counted for chinese productions, but then I read Back To The Future was banned there for that same reason, so I really don't know what's their reasoning there.

[robreedwrites]

It's not even just an american thing. Marvel Studios has to cater to international markets too, so that means doing stuff that can be considered globally accepted. I mean, China alone with their crazy strict rules probably was responsible for a lot of decisions Marvel made for their movies: no genuine magic, no paganism, no chinese villain (Mandarin), no tibetan Ancient One, etc. One thing I also discovered recently is that the chinese also ban movies with TIME TRAVEL. No kidding, look it up. Stuff like going back in time a few minutes in Doctor Strange was probably allowed because it wasn't very complex, but if you ever dreamed of a Kang story in a movie, you can kiss it goodbye.

There has to be more to it than that (or else the Chinese versions of these films are just bizarre), because Terminator: Genisys, Arrival, and Interstellar all were released in China. It may be altering real history/people that is an issue.

[Carabas]

Well, I don't know how some movies might have gotten a pass, but the time travel ban IS a real thing, or at least that's what every possible media article was reporting back then:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/ri...ns-time-travel
http://travel.cnn.com/shanghai/life/...travel-274122/
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...l-films-177801
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/13/...n-time-travel/...

Did you actually read your links?

They didn't ban time travel. They banned a few specific shows that involve time travel but are really about how present day China is evil and have time travel as a means to escape from it.

[Tupiaz]

Another thing we are ignoring is that, in comics, science can do anything, too. A mutant uses an "image inducer" to make himself look more human...that's "science." A magician uses a spell to change his appearance, that's "magic." But the science is garbage and they may as well both be classified as magic. How many times has Reed Richards put together a new object with a lot of scientific-spounding terms to save the day? That's "science"...but if Doc Strange uncorks a new spell to save the day, that's magic and lazy writing. But the truth is that both are lazy writing. In comics, "science" is as magical as magic. A positronic alpha wave inducer can do whatever the writer decides a positronic alpha wave inducer can do.

The problem, as you point out, is lazy storytelling. It is not inherently a problem with using magic or science. It is a writer using an easy out rather than plotting something more substantial and satisfying.

No-one has ever claimed mainstream american comic books was hard science fiction very few are. Even the more science fiction heavy books like FF is soft science fiction especially what we see in litteratur. I have at least never seen anybody making such a claim with any valid points.

Slightly off topic, but wasn't the Golden Age Green Lantern's ring originally a magically-based artifact, as where now all of the other Green Lantern rings are science based?

Well you could see the modern rings as cosmic magic. But yes the original Green Lantern was more bass on classical magic tropes have three prophecies however it was made out of meteor so it is also alien/cosmic. Many of the golden ages comics was mostly based on magic powers, Shazam (Captain Marvel) for instance gets his powers from Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus and Mercury. It was until later we got a lot of characters created by radiative poison. Even if this science is bonkers I would still qualify it as science fiction just like the original Flash was science fiction with his inhalation of first hard water later retroceded to heavy water.

Everytime I hear a scientist in the Marvel Universe argue "Magic is Science We Just Don't Understand", it makes me wanna tear my hair out.

There's nothing scientific about the supernatural. Nothing. Why is Marvel constantly shoving this rhetoric down our throats?

Why can't magic in the Marvel Universe just be magic?

There is a difference what a scientist character like Reed Richards believe and what Marvel has as rule for their universe. To believe every character has the same believes or they are all a representation of official rules for the universe is two different things entirely. Just because Punisher is killing every living criminal he is interactingwith (an yes, that was a exaggeration) doesn't mean it is what Marvel believes is correct. It is a misread of characterisation where you have made a characterisation representative for what and who the universe is.

If you instead have claimed characters magic characters like Brother/Doctor Voodoo have gotten their powers discredited because it has been described as both by narrator and other magic characters like Doctor Strange you would be correct. However it has more to with a racial stereotype than Marvel being against magic elements.

Heck Marvel is doing a major movie about the infinity gems which is pretty much a cosmic magic element.

[TakoM]

That's exactly what I was referencing .

Ah yes a watched it to today. Not only that even cosmic powers were suddenly tech -.-
And yes the robot was bad too. The problem is even if this is tech you shouldn't be able to hack into such stuff with which is basically stone-age technology in comparison.

I think they did all this to tone it down for kids but breaking it with their easy going on the other side.