Things that could have been retconned but weren't

[CryNotWolf]

it's always going to come down to what the individual is willing to tolerate. what message does Jan getting back together with Hank send? and it's weird how Hank is allowed to move on. he's had relationships with Firebird, Tigra, Alice Nugent, and Rita Demara. why is it so important that Janet be back in his collection?

Stop talking about Janet like she's some kind of object to be added to a collection. If you think that is in ANY way the manner in which the relationship has been handled, then I don't know what to say other than you have failed the authors as a reader.

And as for what kind of message it would send...if you're so obsessed with their being a "message", then it's quite easy to see that it's a story of not only redemption and mutual growth, but one of love overcoming hardship. Mistreating someone once doesn't make you evil and the relationship incompatible, especially when extenuating circumstances were involved and the aggressor has felt nothing but remorse and has strove relentlessly since then to not only make up for what they did but also become the kind of person that would never commit such an act again.

You keep posting panels of a deranged Hank in the midst of a mental breakdown from the same exact story that happened decades ago. I don't think it's very healthy to hinge upon this to such a degree. It's dishonest and willfully ignorant of not only everything that led up to this story, but as well as everything that has happened since.

I'm glad you posted all that from the issue. Because the claims that it was an artistic mistake that he hit her is nonsense. Maybe the intent wasn't to make it as big as it was, but there is no doubt in my mind that Jim Shooter intended to show an abusive relationship in that issue.

So are you saying Jim Shooter is a liar?

[Mike_Murdock]

Well, the only quotes I've seen directly on the hit have come from Bob Hall who took full responsibility for it and blamed his inexperience. That being said, if Jim Shooter has denied intending to show Hank Pym as abusive in that issue, then he is either misremembering his own work or deliberately misrepresenting it. There's no other reasonable way of reading it if you know what a domestic abuse situation looks like. Nor is it remotely plausible that you could coincidentally end up with something that looks exactly like one without trying. I'll fully accept Bob Hall's representation that the script didn't call for a big bombastic slap across a room, but that's about as far as I'm willing to credit it.

[Cmbmool]

Doom war sort of was ret conned in Hickman FF run. They basically hand waved away the loss of processed vibranium and any effects it might have.

How did that happen again ?

[Mike_Murdock]

The only thing I remember is just "Vibranium isn't what makes Wakanda great," which is true and consistent with what came before.

[Michael Watkins]

Stop talking about Janet like she's some kind of object to be added to a collection.

stop treating her as if she is

And as for what kind of message it would send...if you're so obsessed with their being a "message", then it's quite easy to see that it's a story of not only redemption and mutual growth, but one of love overcoming hardship. Mistreating someone once doesn't make you evil and the relationship incompatible, especially when extenuating circumstances were involved and the aggressor has felt nothing but remorse and has strove relentlessly since then to not only make up for what they did but also become the kind of person that would never commit such an act again.

that's so gross. there was an underlying aggression that displayed itself in violent behavior. someone who would do that to a loved one (and one who wasn't offering even a hint of resistance) is someone you don't give a second shot to. but feel free to tell your daughter or son differently.

You keep posting panels of a deranged Hank in the midst of a mental breakdown from the same exact story that happened decades ago. I don't think it's very healthy to hinge upon this to such a degree. It's dishonest and willfully ignorant of not only everything that led up to this story, but as well as everything that has happened since.

I posted the panels in case someone decided to use that old lame excuse of him not knowing what he was doing. this wasn't a one-off. he had been nasty and passive aggressive to Jan throughout the story. Tigra noticed. why didn't you? Jan simply frustrated him by being, both, supportive, and more successful than he. he felt as if he could hit her and get away with it because he sees her as property.

[Gaastra]

hey still need to retcon Wonder Man forming the Revengers.

That was ridiculously ****ing stupid.

Worst part is iron man had just updated captain ultra out of the joke he was and did a great job making him a real hero and here comes this crap making him a joke again and putting him back in that green outfit again.

[XPac]

How did that happen again ?

Not much to it really. T'Challa simply said they're good financially and vibranium started being used in stories again like nothing happened.

Hickman basically brushed aside Maeberrys deconstruction to he could have more of a clean slate to tell his own.

[CryNotWolf]

stop treating her as if she is

I never did, that was absolutely you and only you. If you imply something like that again, you better show me the quote.

You act like she's some glass statuette whose decisions have no merit, an eternal victim so to say, when she's proven herself a smart, capable, and headstrong woman in every respect. She forgave Hank a long time ago, despite Hank never forgiving himself, and she's accepted him back into her life multiple times. Condemning Hank is condemning her forgiveness. You might as well call her a poor battered housewife while you're at it.

that's so gross. there was an underlying aggression that displayed itself in violent behavior. someone who would do that to a loved one (and one who wasn't offering even a hint of resistance) is someone you don't give a second shot to. but feel free to tell your daughter or son differently.

I posted the panels in case someone decided to use that old lame excuse of him not knowing what he was doing. this wasn't a one-off. he had been nasty and passive aggressive to Jan throughout the story. Tigra noticed. why didn't you? Jan simply frustrated him by being, both, supportive, and more successful than he. he felt as if he could hit her and get away with it because he sees her as property.

Once again, for the Nth time, you prove that you have either an unwillingness or an incapability to divine Shooter's clearly-presented intent in the story. All you do is say "Look! Here's panels of Hank abusing his wife in this one infamous story while he was in the midst of a severe mental breakdown!". Except you forget to mention he was going through a borderline schizophrenic episode. Every time. Do you understand the concept of a psychotic episode? Do you honestly believe that someone cursed with a serious mental ailment should be persecuted to the fullest extent for an isolated incident brought about by the disability that they have zero control over, and in Hank's case no real awareness of?

Oh and those women he's been with since, has he ever shown any signs of physical aggression or abuse towards them? No, he hasn't. Because he had come to recognize his own problems, and was able to remedy the most severe aspects of his disease through self-medication, though he still clearly suffers from manic depression.

Your statements speak to a complete failure to understand the situation in any real manner beyond personal grievance. Honestly I feel like anything I say is a complete waste of time. At not point do you ever show a willingness to actually engage in real conversation or address others' arguments in any acceptable capacity. You stonewall yourself inside your own narrow-minded worldview and repeat the same things ad nauseum, despite those points being addressed, not only by myself and others, but thousands of times over by thousands of fans for many years. It's willful ignorance, no two ways about it.

Well, the only quotes I've seen directly on the hit have come from Bob Hall who took full responsibility for it and blamed his inexperience. That being said, if Jim Shooter has denied intending to show Hank Pym as abusive in that issue, then he is either misremembering his own work or deliberately misrepresenting it. There's no other reasonable way of reading it if you know what a domestic abuse situation looks like. Nor is it remotely plausible that you could coincidentally end up with something that looks exactly like one without trying. I'll fully accept Bob Hall's representation that the script didn't call for a big bombastic slap across a room, but that's about as far as I'm willing to credit it.

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/

There ya go. Straight from the horse's mouth. You either believe him or you think he's a liar. Doesn't matter to me, what happened happened and he ran with it, but I think it goes to show that he did not originally set out to stain the history of Hank Pym forever.

[Mike_Murdock]

He glossed over everything else besides the strike. I can't call him a liar there because he didn't address it at all. I agree with him that he was trying to address the psychology of the character in a complex way, but that doesn't mean that his own mental health issues didn't lead him to emotionally abuse his wife in that issue and physically strike her.

By the way, I found another, fairly obscure example that fits this topic from West Coast Avengers. Back in the first story of Wonder Man, Wonder Man was failing in his business, embezzled money from it, turned to the Masters of Evil, tried to kill the Avengers, and had a change of heart and saved them. In this story, Tigra starts off saying she can't believe that the good man she knows would have embezzled from his company. Throughout the story, it starts to hint that his brother, Eric, actually embezzled and Simon took the blame. In the end, it was revealed that, no, Simon Williams did embezzle from his company. He's not a saint just because he had a change of heart and tried to help the Avengers and he's had failings in the past.

I thought this was an interesting example. I don't know if people had problems at the time with the fact that he had committed a serious crime and is now looked at as a hero, but the story seemed to be trying to wipe away his past failing before trying to instead present a more three-dimensional character who did, in fact, have this past failing.

[Michael Watkins]

I never did, that was absolutely you and only you. If you imply something like that again, you better show me the quote.

You act like she's some glass statuette whose decisions have no merit, an eternal victim so to say, when she's proven herself a smart, capable, and headstrong woman in every respect. She forgave Hank a long time ago, despite Hank never forgiving himself, and she's accepted him back into her life multiple times. Condemning Hank is condemning her forgiveness. You might as well call her a poor battered housewife while you're at it.



Once again, for the Nth time, you prove that you have either an unwillingness or an incapability to divine Shooter's clearly-presented intent in the story. All you do is say "Look! Here's panels of Hank abusing his wife in this one infamous story while he was in the midst of a severe mental breakdown!". Except you forget to mention he was going through a borderline schizophrenic episode. Every time. Do you understand the concept of a psychotic episode? Do you honestly believe that someone cursed with a serious mental ailment should be persecuted to the fullest extent for an isolated incident brought about by the disability that they have zero control over, and in Hank's case no real awareness of?

Oh and those women he's been with since, has he ever shown any signs of physical aggression or abuse towards them? No, he hasn't. Because he had come to recognize his own problems, and was able to remedy the most severe aspects of his disease through self-medication, though he still clearly suffers from manic depression.

Your statements speak to a complete failure to understand the situation in any real manner beyond personal grievance. Honestly I feel like anything I say is a complete waste of time. At not point do you ever show a willingness to actually engage in real conversation or address others' arguments in any acceptable capacity. You stonewall yourself inside your own narrow-minded worldview and repeat the same things ad nauseum, despite those points being addressed, not only by myself and others, but thousands of times over by thousands of fans for many years. It's willful ignorance, no two ways about it.



http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-p...e-beater.html/

There ya go. Straight from the horse's mouth. You either believe him or you think he's a liar. Doesn't matter to me, what happened happened and he ran with it, but I think it goes to show that he did not originally set out to stain the history of Hank Pym forever.

You are wasting your time. I told you that earlier. If you didn't see Janet as property, you would be defending her instead of her abuser. Her moving on was a show of strength. hank opening that women's shelter in Jan's name was an admission of guilt. And his continued self-experimentation points to a recklessness unbecoming of a hero.

[DJ1107]

America Chavez's entire series. Be easy too just have it be all a horrible nightmare with America saying "Man.....can you imagine if I was that obnoxious in real life?". I mean why not it's not like anyone with a working brain stem is going to acknowledge anything from that series.

[Photon Torme]

Seems to me that any ret cons would be pretty esy to justify right now given that the whole universe had to be re constructed not long ago. DFoesn't seem that odd that the space time continuum might have been tweaked a little, causing cxertain events to shake out differently or not at all.

[Tupiaz]

You are wasting your time. I told you that earlier. If you didn't see Janet as property, you would be defending her instead of her abuser. Her moving on was a show of strength. hank opening that women's shelter in Jan's name was an admission of guilt. And his continued self-experimentation points to a recklessness unbecoming of a hero.

That is a very one dimensional and either you are with me or you are against me rhetoric. Mental illness can turn loving and caring family members into family members filled with anger and hatred who act violently. This is happening because they aren't themselves but have a mind filled with paranoia thoughts they otherwise wouldn't have. You can talk about the success of how the story was told, how the panel was drawn and so on. However the story has from the start been Hank treated Janet badly because he was having a mental breakdown and was slowing becoming more and more mentally ill with what we today would call bipolar disorder.

[Michael Watkins]

That is a very one dimensional and either you are with me or you are against me rhetoric. Mental illness can turn loving and caring family members into family members filled with anger and hatred who act violently. This is happening because they aren't themselves but have a mind filled with paranoia thoughts they otherwise wouldn't have. You can talk about the success of how the story was told, how the panel was drawn and so on. However the story has from the start been Hank treated Janet badly because he was having a mental breakdown and was slowing becoming more and more mentally ill with what we today would call bipolar disorder.

In the real world people with bipolar illness take responsibility for their actions. You smear the community by lumping them in with Pym. He's a super genius and a biochemist who refused to take medication. Instead, he played around with his own biochemistry and that of his ex. He continued to put himself in a high stress situation. And, for the record, he seemed quite in control of himself in the lead up to this story. He was frustrated because jan was more successful. He was frustrated because he no longer commanded the respect of his peers; much like in his origin story. Pym's a violent man; unlike most who struggle with mental illness. Keep making excuses. I'm not going to budge. In the real world, Pym would not be able to carry around a gun, after beating up his wife. He definitely wouldn't be a licensed superhero.

[Tupiaz]

In the real world people with bipolar illness take responsibility for their actions. You smear the community by lumping them in with Pym. He's a super genius and a biochemist who refused to take medication. Instead, he played around with his own biochemistry and that of his ex. He continued to put himself in a high stress situation. And, for the record, he seemed quite in control of himself in the lead up to this story. He was frustrated because jan was more successful. He was frustrated because he no longer commanded the respect of his peers; much like in his origin story. Pym's a violent man; unlike most who struggle with mental illness. Keep making excuses. I'm not going to budge. In the real world, Pym would not be able to carry around a gun, after beating up his wife. He definitely wouldn't be a licensed superhero.

It is not about making excuses but you not seam willing to understand that mental illness is not a person acting in full control of emotion or rational thoughts. I'm not smearing ant community whatsoever when I try to make people understand there is difference between a person being mentally ill and person being mentally stable. Up to this event he had been hostile to Janet as Yellowjacket attacking an enemy from behind after the fight is over. that is why he has court verdict coming. Pym had hardly in any way been well balanced and acted with a clear mind.