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  1. #691
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    To bad they wanted a ready-to-go 10 years old Son of Superman/Superboy, hence they killed NuSuperman and swapped him with Superdad and family.
    I always contend there was a way better way to do that. You do with Superman and Lois what you did with the rest of the verse. Reintegrate the history you want back in. With Jon, you pull almost an inverse of the Dawn scenario from Buffy season 5. This kid just shows up. He has memories of being Clark and Lois Lane's son but no one else does, namely his own "parents". You play with that mystery, inviting the question if he's even real or not, before revealing that he is indeed, and Superman and Lois don't know of him because of the whole missing ten years plot point. He then is that buffer shedding light that the timeline is wrong, speaking of a more Pre-FP reality. Why does he exist when the missing ten years didn't originally include him? The same reason fixing Zero Hour resulted in a guy named Kenny Braverman existing. Comic book reasons. And why is he brought back before the memories are returned to his parents? I dunno, Mxy did it somehow. That vague answer worked well enough for Reborn as it is, lol. Speaking of which, an equivalent of Superman Reborn then restores their memories, and in effect introduces us the audience to those memories. At this point Clark and Lois are married again as they were before and Jon is included in that status quo. It requires putting the family dynamic on hold for a while of course in favor of the mystery element, but in the scheme of things you're not losing THAT much time before you get to start to build it in earnest, and in the end it would have resulted in a little less of a jarring situation, and I think it would have left New 52 fans feeling far less rejected than killing off the entire version did.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-11-2018 at 02:24 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    All-Star Superman is arrogant, paternalistic and generally unlikable. He either cold or not really caring about the little peoples, being a lot more absorbed into his cosmic adventures, and his "death". He is also clearly depicted as a god-like being from the get go. New 52 Action is out of the shadows to help all the little peoples who are used to be trampled upon. He is brash and rash, but his heart is in the good place and he doesn't get lost in how incredibly intelligent, powerful and wonderful he is, while All-Star Superman was full of self-pity, and casual arrogance. The two are nothing alike, I can't even begin to imagine how New 52 Superman could end as the character wearing the S and the underwear in All-Star.
    It's the same character, though action depicts him at the beginning of his career, and all-star depicts him after years of solar energy increasing his powers and intelligence with an enormous boost to those at the beginning of the story with his exposure to the solar radiation. I don't believe anyone could read issue 10 and say with a straight-face that he's cold and uncaring of the little peoples. I'm going to need very specific examples of that, as well as the supposed arrogance and self-pity. You're taking things from the story that aren't there. Unless, you're armond white which I'm beginning to suspect.

  3. #693
    Extraordinary Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I always contend there was a way better way to do that. You do with Superman and Lois what you did with the rest of the verse. Reintegrate the history you want back in. With Jon, you pull almost an inverse of the Dawn scenario from Buffy season 5. This kid just shows up. He has memories of being Clark and Lois Lane's son but no one else does, namely his own "parents". You play with that mystery, inviting the question if he's even real or not, before revealing that he is indeed, and Superman and Lois don't know of him because of the whole missing ten years plot point. He then is that buffer shedding light that the timeline is wrong, speaking of a more Pre-FP reality. Why does he exist when the missing ten years didn't originally include him? The same reason fixing Zero Hour resulted in a guy named Kenny Braverman existing. Comic book reasons. And why is he brought back before the memories are returned to his parents? I dunno, Mxy did it somehow. That vague answer worked well enough for Reborn as it is, lol. Speaking of which, an equivalent of Superman Reborn then restores their memories, and in effect introduces us the audience to those memories. At this point Clark and Lois are married again as they were before and Jon is included in that status quo. It requires putting the family dynamic on hold for a while of course in favor of the mystery element, but in the scheme of things you're not losing THAT much time before you get to start to build it in earnest, and in the end it would have resulted in a little less of a jarring situation, and I think it would have left New 52 fans feeling far less rejected than killing off the entire version did.
    Well, maybe we could've got something like that if Johns had started crafting the Rebirth initiative with its "time stolen" almost a year before he actually did. When they began to outline Rebirth (October '15), Superdad was already in the main DCU and NuSuperman's fate had already been decided for at least 6 months.
    Last edited by Last Son of Krypton; 03-11-2018 at 02:46 PM.

  4. #694
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by micahbevans88 View Post
    It's the same character, though action depicts him at the beginning of his career, and all-star depicts him after years of solar energy increasing his powers and intelligence with an enormous boost to those at the beginning of the story with his exposure to the solar radiation. I don't believe anyone could read issue 10 and say with a straight-face that he's cold and uncaring of the little peoples. I'm going to need very specific examples of that, as well as the supposed arrogance and self-pity. You're taking things from the story that aren't there. Unless, you're armond white which I'm beginning to suspect.
    I seriously don't want to read All-Star Superman a second time just to provide examples. What I wrote was exactly how I felt while enduring the torture that was that book. Because that what was reading it, a torture, a chore, something I felt the necessity to do to get to the "core" of the "iconic" Superman. And it's something I would like to avoid for the rest of my life, thank you very much. Also, who is Armond White ?
    Last edited by Korath; 03-11-2018 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I seriously don't want to read All-Star Superman a second time just to provide examples. What I wrote was exactly how I felt endure the torture that was that book. Because that what was reading it, a torture, a chore, something I felt the necessity to do to get to the "core" of the "iconic" Superman. And it's something I would like to avoid for the rest of my life, thank you very much. Also, who is Armond White ?
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  6. #696
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    All-Star Superman is arrogant, paternalistic and generally unlikable. He either cold or not really caring about the little peoples, being a lot more absorbed into his cosmic adventures, and his "death". He is also clearly depicted as a god-like being from the get go. New 52 Action is out of the shadows to help all the little peoples who are used to be trampled upon. He is brash and rash, but his heart is in the good place and he doesn't get lost in how incredibly intelligent, powerful and wonderful he is, while All-Star Superman was full of self-pity, and casual arrogance. The two are nothing alike, I can't even begin to imagine how New 52 Superman could end as the character wearing the S and the underwear in All-Star.
    Ok, how much of the book in question did you actually read?

    He helps people non-stop in that book. The biggest example is him being there to comfort Regan after she contemplates suicide; he goes out of his way to help her because he could hear her pain, and was more concerned with hers than with his upcoming death. He enlisted the Superman Emergency Squad to help the cancer patients after they couldn't help him. Him being a god like being from the get go is no surprise because he's well into his career at this point, unlike New 52 Superman. Who, by the way, achieved god like status at the end of the first trade. And the god/mythological imagery is all over that book because that's how Morrison imagines him. Vyndktvx calls him a "pitiful little man-God," and there is the image of him as a baby strangling two Vyndktvx snakes like baby Hercules in the myths while things are getting trippy at the end.

    In All-Star, he also had the humbling experience of not being able to save his father from a heart attack and grieves like the rest of us would in that situation. And he himself needs a mortal man, Jimmy Freakin' Olsen, to save him in issue 4. He also uses his intellect to defeat Lex, not his power.

    What you describe is not in the book at all. It is also a self contained, easily accessible and consistent graphic novel that has won Eisner awards. Truth and Doomed are bloated crossovers with multiple authors and artists across multiple titles, which are generally the most toxic thing that can happen in a property. The other two are not comparable in quality to All Star, because their very nature as event driven cash grabs is working against them.

  7. #697
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'll refer you to "Granny's peach tree" on the Internet about the bolded part. If it looks like an underwear and smell like an underwear, then it's an underwear, no matter how creators, authors and fans try to spin it.

    And, yes, they are utterly ugly and ridiculous. And the perfect example of what is wrong with comics (and especially D.C.'s right now). Nostalgia and the retreading of all stories matters more than anything, especially for the older characters like Superman.
    Hmm... That's some interesting logic you have there.

    Stating the facts, "as is" would NOT be"Spin" - Laboring under a "false pretense" and convincing yourself or, others of this propaganda now, that would be "Spin!"

    No, "Nostalgia" is not what is wrong with comics, nor are "Twice Told Tales". - Lack of; consistency, continuity, character development and (good old fashion) story-telling are.

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Yeah, I know. That's too bad, because I'll keep reading Truth and Doomed and everything he appeared, now matter how chaotic it was, just for its tone, over things like All-Star Superman or post-Reborn Superman. And it is my firm belief that Truth and Doomed are vastly superior to All-Star or the Death of Superman in the messages they convey and the general undertone for the character. So I guess, I'll let peoples enjoy their stale and falling "iconic" Superman, have all the material which interest me for this character.
    Okay, just as long as you recognize that you're in the vast minority on those two issues. I mean, you're entitled to like what you like, but at this point, its pretty apparent that New 52 didn't resonate with most fans. And Truth and Doomed are both hailed as some of the worst of New 52 Superman stories.
    Favorite Mythologies: Green Lantern, Batman (pre-Flashpoint), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, the Justice League/JLA (pre-Flashpoint)

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  9. #699
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    No, "Nostalgia" is not what is wrong with comics, nor are "Twice Told Tales". - Lack of; consistency, continuity, character development and (good old fashion) story-telling are.
    I think you're both right, actually.

    The industry started catering almost exclusively to established, adult fans. Look where it's gotten us. Some changes need to take place. But even if new potential fans arrived in droves next Wednesday, the quality usually isn't there to justify the cover price and we'd lose them anyway.
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  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think you're both right, actually.

    The industry started catering almost exclusively to established, adult fans. Look where it's gotten us. Some changes need to take place. But even if new potential fans arrived in droves next Wednesday, the quality usually isn't there to justify the cover price and we'd lose them anyway.
    I'm not even sure how much of a sales boost comics would see if they started catering to all ages at grocery stores/newstands again to be honest. I don't have any data specifically, but selling to kids that have phones and the internet would be a real uphill battle. There's little interest among my teen cousins in even reading the very nice hardcover editions of GOAT-tier comics I have available to them at all times.

  11. #701
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Peoples know of Batman and the MCU. Superman and Wonder Woman too. Beyond that, the general public is mostly ignorant. Comics are a very niche market compared to B.D. and Manga here. Obviously, because of the U.S.' cultural dominance, the big names are known and we got most of the DC and Marvel cartoons since the 60's (special mention for Superfriends and that old Spidey cartoon with all the memes, who are simply so atrocious in French that it becomes funny).



    Yeah, I know. That's too bad, because I'll keep reading Truth and Doomed and everything he appeared, now matter how chaotic it was, just for its tone, over things like All-Star Superman or post-Reborn Superman. And it is my firm belief that Truth and Doomed are vastly superior to All-Star or the Death of Superman in the messages they convey and the general undertone for the character. So I guess, I'll let peoples enjoy their stale and falling "iconic" Superman, have all the material which interest me for this character.
    Interesting opinion, I guess we all have our tastes.
    Last edited by DragonPiece; 03-11-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  12. #702
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    The public at large, at least here in France, find Superman utterly ridiculous. He is known for being the big boring dummy who wears his underwears on the outside for the general public. It's probably different in America, but as for myself, I would have died of shame as a five years old if someone had offered me a Superman costume for a birthday party or something. It's worn mostly to lampshade it, and when it appears in non-comics fiction. It's mostly "Don't you look ridiculous like that? Yeah, but it got me to talk to you" kin of vibe, if you know what I mean.
    A big boring dummy, who everyone wants to be!

    Died of shame, by wearing costume - if offered?
    That's disturbing - I've never heard of anything like that before from a kid that age, usually kids love putting on superhero outfits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think you're both right, actually.

    The industry started catering almost exclusively to established, adult fans. Look where it's gotten us. Some changes need to take place. But even if new potential fans arrived in droves next Wednesday, the quality usually isn't there to justify the cover price and we'd lose them anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by micahbevans88 View Post
    I'm not even sure how much of a sales boost comics would see if they started catering to all ages at grocery stores/newstands again to be honest. I don't have any data specifically, but selling to kids that have phones and the internet would be a real uphill battle. There's little interest among my teen cousins in even reading the very nice hardcover editions of GOAT-tier comics I have available to them at all times.

    Kids today seem to be very sophisticated and complex, much more so, then I was when I was growing up. With so many things competing for their attention, of which, the span is short so, unless "an attention grabber" hits with the force of a supernova, it goes into the "later pile".

    Really, I wonder just how many people (kids) today can appreciate a (non-computerized) good book, while reading stuff like: "Weird Tales - mag", "Ray Bradbury", "Homer's Odyssey", or even "Dr. Seuss" etc....

    A real Book, one that you can hold in your hands and turn the pages, then use your imagination to fill in the gaps? Those days are rapidly going the way of the "rotary phone" and looking up something at a library using the "Dewey Decimal System".

  13. #703
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    A big boring dummy, who everyone wants to be!

    Died of shame, by wearing costume - if offered?
    That's disturbing - I've never heard of anything like that before from a kid that age, usually kids love putting on superhero outfits?
    I work with 3-6 years old during our holidays, and I've never heard one wanting to be Superman. Spiderman or Batman; Lightning Mac Queen, yes, sometimes, but Superman ? Never. As a kid I wore Spiderman outfits once or twice and liked it, but never saw a Superman one until I was at least ten-twelve, I think (but it was still a time when Internet and the possibility to buy online, even articles from other countries , was almost non-existent, it's easier now to get some, and obviously kids don't come costumed to the holiday daycare).

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Ok, how much of the book in question did you actually read?
    The whole lot of it, and I hated it from start to finish. It was truly painful to go through it, and I did it only because I kept reading everywhere (here and elsewhere) that if you had to read one book to get Superman, it was this one. And it was a good thing I had already started reading the New 52 Superman, otherwise I wouldn't ever had opened even one book with this character in it (which is mostly what I'm doing right now, the only thing Superman related that I read is New Superman after all - and I hope that the writers will stop making Damian a stupid fool to prop Jon Kent, I hate to see a Bat-related character being made fun off by a Super, especially Damian).
    Last edited by Korath; 03-12-2018 at 01:36 AM.

  14. #704
    Fantastic Member jimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I work with 3-6 years old during our holidays, and I've never heard one wanting to be Superman. Spiderman or Batman; Lightning Mac Queen, yes, sometimes, but Superman ? Never. As a kid I wore Spiderman outfits once or twice and liked it, but never saw a Superman one until I was at least ten-twelve, I think (but it was still a time when Internet and the possibility to buy online, even articles from other countries , was almost non-existent, it's easier now to get some, and obviously kids don't come costumed to the holiday daycare).
    .
    My mom was teacher and eventually opened up her own nursery school and beside the "run of the mill" ghosts, witches and Frankenstein Monsters it was Superman the kids wanted to be at Halloween. For me personally, it didn't need to be Halloween, it could be the middle of July Superman was it, from; Lunch Boxes (which, I still have) to decoder-rings, to the cereal that ate (Kellogg's Pep later Sugar Frosted Flakes) at that time "The Adventures of Superman" came on the radio, and that was my first introduction to Superman. Then, a year half later when I was five, I saw live action Superman at movie theater every week for 15 weeks!!

    Interesting, you like the Spider-Man costume which is based loosely on Superman's outfit and colors of red and blue?

  15. #705
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    The problem isn't the colors, it's more the form and the texture of the costume which makes me dislike it. The underwear is a big no for me (I would die before wearing it, plain and simply) and I suspect that it't the case for a lot of peoples here in France, were comics have never been so big in itself. It'll probably shock you, but it wasn't until 2011 that D.C. got a stable and steady translation here, easily available and, more importantly, some books in kiosque and tabac-shop (where kids, especially the younger ones, will find their first exposure to comics if they aren't from a more geeky family). While older stories obviously existed in French for a long time, they were mostly unknown from the larger public, either because of some kind of stigma ("it's the U.S. trying to impose it cultural dominance", "it's violent and stupid", etc., something which touched and probably still do comics and even manga and some B.D., while the latter two are now a staple of French cultural creation). And most of French peoples don't speak English (and have no reason to truly learn it for their everyday life) so they won't go out of their way to buy directly online (plus, the format of comics is very different from the usual continental one for B.D. and manga, which probably make it harder to sell among some peoples who will dislike it... I've heard a lot of peoples complaining about things like that in bookshops... As if it was important....).

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