Superman's Red Trunks Return in Action #1000

[SiegePerilous02]

So, if the trunks don't matter much, why do they have to be done away with, then?

They don't have to. I'm not bothered by them at all. But they don't have to stick around either. As a design aesthetic, they're not as important as other elements. You can get rid of them and still have a costume that is instantly recognizable. Their importance is greatly inflated.

Also, the "boy scout" personality is just a derogatory remark people use to describe his general personality of being altruistic and kind and warm as opposed to brooding and suspicious like Batman is. And you know what? Why is it that people call out that personality when it comes to Superman but not Captain America? They have literally the same personality.

Also, the idea that Superman is some sort of government stooge comes from ignorance of Superman's actual character. This is a character who expressed major opposition to the Iraq War during Joe Kelly's JLA run. DCU Superman has never been a government stooge, blindly following some Orwellian dictator.

When people want Superman to have a bit more of an edge (which he had in his original form and made him a popular character in the first place), we do not want him to lose his innate goodness or altruism. People can be aggressive in certain situations and still have those qualities, and having them present doesn't automatically make a person broody like Batman. I can't say I'm well versed in Steve beyond the basics, but I don't think they have literally the same personality. First of all, Steve is a soldier, and that brings perspective that a non-soldier like Clark wouldn't have, and I doubt he has Clark's mischievous prankster side that he had in the Silver Age, or scientific curiosity. Steve is more of an artist. There is also the fact that Steve's personality is being matched with a much more grounded power set.

It's a reputation that isn't deserved, but one that nonetheless exists. A big other media adaptation that got to the roots of the character (a champion of the oppressed who is altruistic, good natured and selfless but doesn't put up with any bullshit and will bully back the bullies if it is required) could have shaken the perception and renewed interest in the character for more than just comic book fanboys. We didn't quite get that in MoS, and any promise it might of had was immediately squandered. There's bit and pieces throughout the films that could have worked if put together more competently, but we didn't get it, and we're on standby to see if we will get more.

And Superman should be a paragon of heroism that people look up to. Again, I'm gonna invoke the Captain America example. People in the Marvel U look at Steve literally the same way. Why don't people get upset at that? Does that mean Superman is gonna be a perfect person? No, of course not. He's always been written with character flaws. But he should be that guy people place their faith in in times of crisis. The Reeves Superman displayed that perfectly.

I want Superman to be the paragon of heroism that people look up to as well, but that shouldn't entail losing a bit of an edge that the character has at his very core. Hell, Cap as a soldier is willing to kill people so he has his own kind of edge right there. And while Reeves embodied the character well in terms of tone and personality, his Superman also casually killed the powerless Kryptonians, wiped his girlfriend's mind with a BS magic kiss without her consent after sleeping with her, and roughed up a guy without powers. 2/3 of those things are things New 52 Clark didn't do, and he was more inclined to rough up serial killers and corrupt CEOs who were planning murder to make money than bar bullies, and even in those instances he more put the fear of God into them than broke limbs.

[Mister BoMan]

It was good seeing the red trunks back. Seeing Jim Lee's pic kinda made me think of a modern day Curt Swan Superman. I am not one to say Superman's gotta have trunks, but it is good to see them back on the Superman outfit.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They don't have to. I'm not bothered by them at all. But they don't have to stick around either. As a design aesthetic, they're not as important as other elements. You can get rid of them and still have a costume that is instantly recognizable. Their importance is greatly inflated.

And every design that's been introduced since has felt lacking without them. You can't get rid of the trunks without introducing more red somewhere.

When people want Superman to have a bit more of an edge (which he had in his original form and made him a popular character in the first place), we do not want him to lose his innate goodness or altruism. People can be aggressive in certain situations and still have those qualities, and having them present doesn't automatically make a person broody like Batman. I can't say I'm well versed in Steve beyond the basics, but I don't think they have literally the same personality. First of all, Steve is a soldier, and that brings perspective that a non-soldier like Clark wouldn't have, and I doubt he has Clark's mischievous prankster side that he had in the Silver Age, or scientific curiosity. Steve is more of an artist. There is also the fact that Steve's personality is being matched with a much more grounded power set.

Oh, they have very, very similar personalities. Steve is a soldier, but that has more to do with his tactics and methods, not how he sees the world. He still has the same altruistic outlook on life that Clark does. He has the same virtuous ability to see the best in everyone, even those he opposes. He has the same warmth that makes you feel safe around him. That's what Superman should be. The N52 Superman got angry way to easily, way too often, and way too fast. There's a difference between having some edge and being nothing but edge. If he were real, I honestly wouldn't feel safe with someone like the N52 Superman protecting me. He'd be more likely to incite a fight than defend against one.

Also, Superman should never bully anyone. You respond to a bully by standing up for yourself or others. You don't become the bully. You don't take someone down and then keep kicking them while they're down. The way you fight corrupt businessmen is by helping to take them down through legitimate means, like prosecution. You don't threaten to throw them off of buildings.

I want Superman to be the paragon of heroism that people look up to as well, but that shouldn't entail losing a bit of an edge that the character has at his very core. Hell, Cap as a soldier is willing to kill people so he has his own kind of edge right there. And while Reeves embodied the character well in terms of tone and personality, his Superman also casually killed the powerless Kryptonians, wiped his girlfriend's mind with a BS magic kiss without her consent after sleeping with her, and roughed up a guy without powers. 2/3 of those things are things New 52 Clark didn't do, and he was more inclined to rough up serial killers and corrupt CEOs who were planning murder to make money than bar bullies, and even in those instances he more put the fear of God into them than broke limbs.

You do realize that Superman's killed as well. And this was way before the N52. So, let's not pretend that the N52 was the first time the character had any edge. And I don't think he's lost the appropriate amount of edge with Rebirth. No, he doesn't recklessly threaten to throw powerless individuals off of balconies, but he does get fierce when he's defending people he cares about.

[Frontier]

But why does that somehow matter over every other aspect of wearing a full body blue suit with a big read cape on the back and an S that's "not and S" but is totally a giant S to everyone else on the planet. Why are a pair of trunks the straw that breaks the back when he looks like a flying tool in a cape to anyone who sees him in real life regardless? It's so arbitrary one way or the other that I'm genially shocked when people make a case for its removal or continued use and base it off some sure-fire-totally-objective reasoning. Being born in the 1980 something won't somehow make it make sense that he's okay with wearing a giant blue suit and a cape because he's still operating in 2018. Regardless what he wears is ridiculous in 2018.

My point about Cap still stands because his comic is still being received extremely well regardless of how dated his suit looks to someone in 2018.

I don't think any of Cap's modern costumes were able to deliver the same kind of iconic and dynamic feel as his classic costume.

I've noticed it a bunch of places. For example, in recent JL issues.

I dunno, I think most artists (particularly in his solo) draw it pretty streamlined or seamless.

Not really? it was just one thin strip of red followed by a lot more blue.

And I think that worked really well.

I think we need to admit that, unless we're willing to let DC do something like this with Superman:



or go back to something like this look:



then the trunks have their purpose.

I think the Reborn look is 10x better then these redesigns in capturing Superman.

And honestly, I haven't seen much backlash against Colossus or Kitty's looks.

You obviously have not been reading a lot of X-Men threads (especially when Gold was first announced) .

[Ascended]

And every design that's been introduced since has felt lacking without them. You can't get rid of the trunks without introducing more red somewhere.

I think its more that most of those suits were just badly designed, than a specific lack of the trunks. Now, Im speaking strictly about design sensibility and not personal preference, and not everyone can separate those two things, but.....

The T-shirt and jeans proto-costume probably shouldn't even be compared to the classic as it's really a "apples and oranges" situation. But I find that suit to be perfectly designed for what it is meant to convey. In fact, from a purely design perspective, it does its job better than the classic has ever since the classic stopped being a circus strongman outfit that Clark made himself and started being based on Kryptonian fashion.

Jim Lee's New52 armor was just poorly done. There are elements in that suit that have nothing in common with other elements. There are aspects of the design that change, for no apparent reason, in other parts of the costume. It's a mess on very level, and coloring his crotch red wouldn't have made it any better at all. All it would have done is make it look slightly more familiar, which is not the same thing as being better. Lee is a great pinup artist, but if the New52 designs are any indication he's a terrible fashion designer. Actually, he designed a lot of the early DCU Online gear, so I can attest that he's just bad at design.

Romita Jr's adjustments to that suit were so minor it should basically be considered the same suit as Lee's (in the same way Reis' suit in Throne of Atlantis is the same suit with some details shifted by artistic license). It does a few things better and the overall design aesthetic is more consistent, but JRJR.....he was working with a deeply flawed foundation so the improvements he made still don't amount to much.

The Rebirth/Superdad costume took a huge step in the right direction by streamlining and simplifying things but messed up the color balance with the blue boots and a few more annoying design elements that didn't repeat elsewhere, or repeated in asymmetrical ways. Again, the lack of trunks wasn't the problem with the suit, it was the overall design.

The Reborn costume was 99% perfectly balanced and conceptualized. And that last 1% of imperfection is present in the classic suit (in the exact same place and exact same way) as well. It's the classic suit with a solid belt design that served the same purpose as the red trunks and had design angles that matched the boots and shield. If DC had allowed Superman to ditch the trunks back in the 90's when everyone else did, and then tweaked the suit a little bit here and there over time until they found a perfect update, it would've been the Reborn costume. Now, that said, not all artists have drawn the belt as thick as they need to. The Reborn costume works best with a thick belt, not a thin one. But that's a mistake on the part of the artist, not the design itself.

The fact that we had a excellent update for the classic suit with the Reborn design makes the return of the trunks hurt even more. It wasn't necessary that they come back, the costume looked great as it was. Had they brought back the trunks during the Jim Lee armor era, the move would've been justified. But now? Now its just about nostalgia....and that is very rarely a good reason to make any business decision. It certainly isn't good for Superman's long-term viability.

[AJBopp]

Best comic book news in many, many years.

After a brief separation, Superman and his iconic red undies are reuniting

[Buried Alien]

Best comic book news in many, many years.

After a brief separation, Superman and his iconic red undies are reuniting

There's a lively discussion going on about this subject at the Superman Forum too. No word yet on how this will affect future depictions of Superman's costume in other media such as TV and cinema.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[AJBopp]

There's a lively discussion going on about this subject at the Superman Forum too. No word yet on how this will affect future depictions of Superman's costume in other media such as TV and cinema.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

With the increasingly-obvious necessity of rebooting the movie-verse, this seems like an opportune moment to show the audience that the Superman they've always wanted to see is here again, with nothing more than a movie poster.

[Jim Kelly]

I like this because it appeals to my personal sensibilities and taste, but I acknowledge that it is in no way an objective fact.

Far be it from me to tell other people how they should feel about the return of the trunks, but I don't think it's the end of the world for those who like all the other designs. I think it was already established in the Rebirth comics that Mr. Superman used to wear red trunks--maybe they helped with conception of the Super Son. So he has a good in-story reason for pulling the trunks out of his closet and putting them on to celebrate the anniversary of when he and Mrs. Superman first met.

That doesn't mean Clark can't change clothes ever again. Everybody else changes their clothes--some on a daily basis. And that to me is the best result for the Man of Tomorrow, for Lois and for the reader: a Superman who changes his clothes regularly, but has certain outfits he prefers to wear most of the time.

I prefer all super-heroes to have at least a few different outfits. I suppose some guys are like Hitchcock and Einstein and just own several of the exact same outfit--because they don't want to waste mental energy deciding what to wear every day. But I would think the majority select outfits for specific tasks--this seems most probable with Batman and I don't know why we don't seem him in different outfits more often.

[Ascended]

I prefer all super-heroes to have at least a few different outfits. I suppose some guys are like Hitchcock and Einstein and just own several of the exact same outfit--because they don't want to waste mental energy deciding what to wear every day. But I would think the majority select outfits for specific tasks--this seems most probable with Batman and I don't know why we don't seem him in different outfits more often.

Marketing.

With toys and stuff, you want a lot of variations so you can sell more toys. Deep Water Dive Superman. Space Exploration Superman. Lazy Sunday Pajama Superman. Awkward High School Reunion Superman. There's a reason that Barbie sells so many outfits yknow?

But for comics, its the reverse. Outside of special circumstances, you want your character to be instantly recognizable to the casual passerby at the LCS or bookstore. And with so many titles on the shelf, you don't want someone passing over an issue because they mistook the character for someone else.

That said, I do agree with you in wanting characters to use different costumes. I adore the fact that Harley Quinn has shifted from a single costume to a wardrobe theme, and not only made it work, but generated stupid high sales doing so. I dont need everyone taking it to that extreme, but there's no reason why Clark (and others) couldn't have three or four costumes to rotate through on a regular basis. There's lots of positives to that sort of approach.

[HandofPrometheus]

The only costume I like without the trunks is this one
JUSTICE_LORDS_SUPERMAN.jpg

[MosSuperman]

The only costume I like without the trunks is this one
JUSTICE_LORDS_SUPERMAN.jpg

I don't mind the dark blue.

This one is cool too.
3fb2749b73740ea44f2e1307bf943821.jpg

[Kuwagaton]

Hell, Cap as a soldier is willing to kill people so he has his own kind of edge right there.

Yeah, it's not a bad comparison to make, but it basically just reduces them to primary colors. I think to be honest Cap seems a bit more like if Bruce Wayne had been inspired by newsreels instead of his parents' death.



Only, Steve is as gritty as almost any soldier. While Brubaker having those dudes fall to their deaths right in front of him wasn't like killing Baron Blood reluctantly, I think that the origins play enough into the characters as they are (Bruce and Steve were offered up to their alter egos) that you can see those different interpretations for the same character and have it be good.

If we compare Steve and Clark, well I have to gloat. Because although the #1000 isn't great, it's still an original piece, where Cap #700 has that recycled Jim Lee image from almost 30 years ago as a cover.

[Agent Z]

I've noticed it a bunch of places. For example, in recent JL issues.



Not really? it was just one thin strip of red followed by a lot more blue.

I think we need to admit that, unless we're willing to let DC do something like this with Superman:



or go back to something like this look:



then the trunks have their purpose.

And honestly, I haven't seen much backlash against Colossus or Kitty's looks.



Because that's the Superman they want and the design aesthetic they like. Simple as that. And they're entitled to feel that way. I feel that way because I think the Reborn suit is too blue and needs more red to break it up.

Also, I didn't say removing the trunks alone was throwing away everything that made Superman appealing. That's putting words in my mouth. However, taking them away was part of a shift DC decided to take in 2011 that did move him away from the things that had made him beloved to his fanbase. So, therefore, the missing trunks become symbolically linked with those missing attributes in the minds of many people.

I think that, currently, Superman feels a lot ore like Superman than he has since 2011 because several of those attributes and character developments I associated with Superman are now back. The trunks coming back is just the icing on the cake for me.



So, if the trunks don't matter much, why do they have to be done away with, then?

Also, the "boy scout" personality is just a derogatory remark people use to describe his general personality of being altruistic and kind and warm as opposed to brooding and suspicious like Batman is. And you know what? Why is it that people call out that personality when it comes to Superman but not Captain America? They have literally the same personality.

Also, the idea that Superman is some sort of government stooge comes from ignorance of Superman's actual character. This is a character who expressed major opposition to the Iraq War during Joe Kelly's JLA run. DCU Superman has never been a government stooge, blindly following some Orwellian dictator.

And Superman should be a paragon of heroism that people look up to. Again, I'm gonna invoke the Captain America example. People in the Marvel U look at Steve literally the same way. Why don't people get upset at that? Does that mean Superman is gonna be a perfect person? No, of course not. He's always been written with character flaws. But he should be that guy people place their faith in in times of crisis. The Reeves Superman displayed that perfectly.

People have expressed dislike at Captain America's Boy Scout persona as well.

Clark not doing anything about President Luthor for most of that story arc also might contribute to the government stooge reputation.

You're posts have gone way beyond merely saying you like the aesthetics.

[Osiris-Rex]

How will they explain the absence? The red trunks got lost in the laundry?