Superman's Red Trunks Return in Action #1000

[Agniwolf]

So, if I can draw out a reasoned argument from what you're saying: even though Tony Stark is a man, the red part around his pelvis makes sense because it has some mechanical function. In other words, it's not an aesthetic problem with having a brilliant colour like red on a man's pelvis--it's purely a functional problem. As long as the piece on the pelvis makes sense for story reasons, the colour doesn't really matter.

If this is why people accept the Iron Man design but not the Superman design, then it seems it's not a visual problem but a logic problem. So all people need is a logical reason for that part of the super-suit.

Therefore, the red isn't the problem, and the placement of the red isn't the problem either. It's the sense in having trunks, that's the problem. Now that we know what the real problem is, we're halfway to solving it. The answer must be to give the red trunks a purpose. Unlike Iron Man, Superman doesn't need a jockstrap of steel, since he's super-invulnearable--so he must need the trunks for another purpose.

this could be very well a fair assesment, so why not?

at the same time why limit it to trunks and not go full trousers

[Superlad93]

I would assume that, yeah. Taking the one year later approach to Doomsday Clock always led me to believe that once it was completed, all books would jump to that point in time.

I very much anticipate One Year Later Redux. Especially since I think most of continuity by that point will essentially be, in great majority, the post-IC status quo.

Yeah, Johns confirmed that all the books would work towards catching up with Doomsday Clock over the stretch of this year. What's odd is that is that the Superman books don't seem to have a concrete direction that they're hammering out in prep for Doomsday Clock like say the Batman books seem to be do with a number of plot lines. You know me, I'm all for one-offs and hoping around the Superman world to see what trouble he can get into, but this really seems like spinning his wheels till it's time to hit that year mark. This wouldn't be so odd if Superman wasn't presented as a central figure and idea in the events of Doomsday Clock and the situation with the Supermen Theory. Granted they reverted Lex back to being bad again, so I guess there's that.

But then I look over and see that "Boyzarro" is one of the upcoming arcs for Superman and even though I'm pretty into the idea conceptually, I'm not seeing the forward momentum one would expect given the structure of "catch up to this in a year." I guess one could look at it as "you can do what you like for a year, but make sure you end on this" so idk.

Maybe by the time Bendis gets on we'll see a more structured run towards that endpoint? Maybe for the next 4 months Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens are just being allowed to play with what they like before issue 6 of Doomsday Clock and 1000 hits?

This does basically confirm Dispenser of Truth's theory about Johns going for an evergreen feel for Doomsday Clock to the point of putting everyone in their most recognizable costumes rather than any era specific suit.

minor baseless conspiracy:

I've wondered (dunno if it's been brought up in this thread yet) if bringing back the classic trunks look was part of Bendis' caveats for working on the Superbooks.

That would be hilarious given some of the people most vocal about not wanting Bendis are super into the classic stuff. The idea that the guy who was gonna "marvalize" Superman again might be the guy who said "I write him in his classic suit or I don't write him at all" lol I don't think that's the case personally, but it's funny to think about.

[Robotman]

I think that's ultimately a misunderstanding of why people enjoyed New 52 Superman, simply because he is "edgy". Superman felt like a true back to the basics "champion of the oppressed/man of the people" Superman. The only problem was the lack of consistency due to the editorial board on how to handle the character. If Greg Pak, Grant Morrison and Peter Tomassi was working on the Superman books at the same time, it would have probably been better handled.

That’s exactly why I loved Grant’s Action Comics run. It brought Superman back as a “champion of the people”. The guy who stands up to bullies and displays absolute selflessness. The way Siegel and Shuster envisioned him.
I can kinda see where people think New 52 Supes was too “edgy” in Johns’ opening Justice League arc. But then again he was laying it on thick with every character. I wasn’t a fan of that portrayal but I certainly don’t want to see him become the “Boy Scout” again. Though traveling with the family in a winnebago and chastising the country for not loving the troops enough is something I really don’t want to see again either.

I just think bringing back the underwear on the outside is a sign that DC has no new ideas for Superman and has decided to rely on nostalgia to sell the character.

[adrikito]

In bleedingcool I saw one funny fake script about the return of the trunks:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/01...cerpts-bendis/


However, I hope not read many conversations like this with bendis..

[Superlad93]

That’s exactly why I loved Grant’s Action Comics run. It brought Superman back as a “champion of the people”. The guy who stands up to bullies and displays absolute selflessness.

As someone who thinks Morrison's run some of the best work on the character, and that Pak isn't very far behind, isn't it more than possible that basically any version of Superman can be written as a Champion of The Oppressed, a person who stands up to bullies, and person that displays absolute selflessness? Don't those basic characteristics go beyond a status quo, age, or a costume? I can tell you right now that I till this day thing the New 52 armored costume was laughably ugly, but I cheered when Clark put that monstrosity on to fight The Collector. After a point I didn't really care for his relationship with Wonder Woman at all, but I could still very much enjoy his basic character regardless of it.

And I think the same holds true now but in the opposite. I started out very much enjoying Tomasi and Gleason's writing, and I inherently liked the idea of Superman having a family, but the current writing isn't at all to my liking, so regardless of my interest in the status quo, I'm not into the books.

So I'm asking: isn't it very much possible to have a Superman who stands up to bullies, looks out of the little guy, and is selfless without him wearing the New 52 suit and dating a superhero?

Oh, hey Mark Waid's Captain America. I didn't see you there. Man your book is fun, and you happen to be wearing your old costume. You also seem to be a super inspiring guy who fights for the little guy even though in today's climate you suit and name would apparently make one believe that you're the defender rich or whatever. Good to see ya

[Agniwolf]

As someone who thinks Morrison's run some of the best work on the character, and that Pak isn't very far behind, isn't it more than possible that basically any version of Superman can be written as a Champion of The Oppressed, a person who stands up to bullies, and person that displays absolute selflessness? Don't those basic characteristics go beyond a status quo, age, or a costume? I can tell you right now that I till this day thing the New 52 armored costume was laughably ugly, but I cheered when Clark put that monstrosity on to fight The Collector. After a point I didn't really care for his relationship with Wonder Woman at all, but I could still very much enjoy his basic character regardless of it.

And I think the same holds true now but in the opposite. I started out very much enjoying Tomasi and Gleason's writing, and I inherently liked the idea of Superman having a family, but the current writing isn't at all to my liking, so regardless of my interest in the status quo, I'm not into the books.

So I'm asking: isn't it very much possible to have a Superman who stands up to bullies, looks out of the little guy, and is selfless without him wearing the New 52 suit and dating a superhero?

Oh, hey Mark Waid's Captain America. I didn't see you there. Man your book is fun, and you happen to be wearing your old costume. You also seem to be a super inspiring guy who fights for the little guy even though in today's climate you suit and name would apparently make one believe that you're the defender rich or whatever. Good to see ya

thing is, in the case of captain america, his classic suit does make sense because he is 100 years old, he does comes from that era with those values. while superman and lois are supposedly being portrayed as someone born in the 80ies which had diferrent values especialy with the change of century but the concept of time within age and era seem to be something to be ignored

[ironman2978]

That’s exactly why I loved Grant’s Action Comics run. It brought Superman back as a “champion of the people”. The guy who stands up to bullies and displays absolute selflessness. The way Siegel and Shuster envisioned him.
I can kinda see where people think New 52 Supes was too “edgy” in Johns’ opening Justice League arc. But then again he was laying it on thick with every character. I wasn’t a fan of that portrayal but I certainly don’t want to see him become the “Boy Scout” again. Though traveling with the family in a winnebago and chastising the country for not loving the troops enough is something I really don’t want to see again either.

I just think bringing back the underwear on the outside is a sign that DC has no new ideas for Superman and has decided to rely on nostalgia to sell the character.

Hear, Hear. I got to agree with this.

I think people saw a more assertive Superman, and the interviews and they honestly assume he was a Batman-lite. Superman was extremely influential in life.


. What I think the something a lot of people who critiqued New 52 Superman missed was that Superman is young and idealistic, especially in his origin story. He was learning lessons that even he can’t make the world perfect and, as Batman pointed out in Action Comics#10-12, Superman needs to be careful not to become a one man authoritarian police force. We as the audience get to see a Superman who really got to be one with the people who help, without necessarily floating over them. He was still learning how to go about changing things for the better. He had to learn when Clark Kent’s talents are more important than Superman’s, also what kind of symbol Superman represents although I think Grant and Greg especially did a pretty good job mixing the two up.

But I agree that the New 52 Justice League arc, especially the first 12 issues really layed on thick certain character traits, without really developing the characters and that is what fans automatically associated with the New 52 characters as a whole . What I really appreciated about New 52 Superman, especially in Grant Morrison and Greg Pak's arc instead of stories revolving around the knowledge that Superman is a good guy with heart that wants to help the helpless, he’s actively doing it. He’s not just beating up the bad muscles, nor is he being sanctimonious or overly preachy as certain interpretation of Superman

[Superlad93]

thing is, in the case of captain america, his classic suit does make sense because he is 100 years old, he does comes from that era with those values. while superman and lois are supposedly being portrayed as someone born in the 80ies which had diferrent values especialy with the change of century but the concept of time within age and era seem to be something to be ignored

But why does that somehow matter over every other aspect of wearing a full body blue suit with a big read cape on the back and an S that's "not and S" but is totally a giant S to everyone else on the planet. Why are a pair of trunks the straw that breaks the back when he looks like a flying tool in a cape to anyone who sees him in real life regardless? It's so arbitrary one way or the other that I'm genially shocked when people make a case for its removal or continued use and base it off some sure-fire-totally-objective reasoning. Being born in the 1980 something won't somehow make it make sense that he's okay with wearing a giant blue suit and a cape because he's still operating in 2018. Regardless what he wears is ridiculous in 2018.

My point about Cap still stands because his comic is still being received extremely well regardless of how dated his suit looks to someone in 2018.

[Agniwolf]

But why does that somehow matter over every other aspect of wearing a full body blue suit with a big read cape on the back and an S that's "not and S" but is totally a giant S to everyone else on the planet. Why are a pair of trunks the straw that breaks the back when he looks like a flying tool in a cape to anyone who sees him in real life regardless? It's so arbitrary one way or the other that I'm genially shocked when people make a case for its removal or continued use. Being born in the 1980 something won't somehow make it make sense that he's okay with wearing a giant blue suit and a cape because he's still operating in 2018. Regardless what he wears is ridiculous in 2018.

My point about Cap still stands because his comic is still being received extremely well regardless of how dated his suit looks to someone in 2018.

then maybe the problem is the superhero industry itself.

should they go away once and for all?:P

[Superlad93]

then maybe the problem is the superhero industry itself.

should they go away once and for all?:P

The problem, to me, seem to be fans utter inability to say "I like this because it appeals to my personal sensibilities and taste, but I acknowledge that it is in no way an objective fact." Or, more simply, "I really that, and I can tell you why if you like."

But that'll never happen

[Sacred Knight]

While I'm not a fan of the Earth-One OGNs, I do really dig the art, and especially the costume. That one has the trunks, and there's at the very least some depth and texture to them. This Lee cover gives some depth to the belt, which is always nice, but the trunks have no depth whatsoever.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't really see that many people drawing the Rebirth costume like battle armor, at least compared to the New 52 costume.

I've noticed it a bunch of places. For example, in recent JL issues.

I think the Rebon costume was able to capture that contrast with the red belt.

Who? Kitty Pryde and Colossus? Those generally haven't been received that well (especially for Kitty).

Not really? it was just one thin strip of red followed by a lot more blue.

I think we need to admit that, unless we're willing to let DC do something like this with Superman:



or go back to something like this look:



then the trunks have their purpose.

And honestly, I haven't seen much backlash against Colossus or Kitty's looks.

If the trunks aren't important, why do we have people in this thread acting like a Superman without trunks isn't Superman? We haven't even read this story to know it will be good and already everyone who hated the New 52 is uncorking the champagne. You yourself even use the argument that removing the trunks was them throwing away everything that made Superman appealing.

Because that's the Superman they want and the design aesthetic they like. Simple as that. And they're entitled to feel that way. I feel that way because I think the Reborn suit is too blue and needs more red to break it up.

Also, I didn't say removing the trunks alone was throwing away everything that made Superman appealing. That's putting words in my mouth. However, taking them away was part of a shift DC decided to take in 2011 that did move him away from the things that had made him beloved to his fanbase. So, therefore, the missing trunks become symbolically linked with those missing attributes in the minds of many people.

I think that, currently, Superman feels a lot ore like Superman than he has since 2011 because several of those attributes and character developments I associated with Superman are now back. The trunks coming back is just the icing on the cake for me.

So basically, it sounds like the trunks don't matter much either way. Especially as there are other aspects of the costume (the big red and yellow S logo, the cape, the boots) that are always present and leave more of an impact anyway.

The Boy Scout isn't appealing to a lot of people though. The one note way it is depicted at times, especially when paired with the idea of Superman being a government stooge as unwittingly popularized by TDKR, has been extremely detrimental to the character's appeal. They don't want a Superman who isn't allowed to be confident in his abilities, but they don't want a bland shining paragon of virtue either. I don't even think we can characterize Reeves's Superman that way, and honestly the whole thing goes against the very core of the character as defined by his creators. The way Cavill played Superman in JL was well received, even if very little else was, and I wouldn't say he played Superman as a Boy Scout there. He was cocky but without being a douche about it, a very delicate balance that is rewarding when done well, which goes to show he's been terribly wasted so far.

So, if the trunks don't matter much, why do they have to be done away with, then?

Also, the "boy scout" personality is just a derogatory remark people use to describe his general personality of being altruistic and kind and warm as opposed to brooding and suspicious like Batman is. And you know what? Why is it that people call out that personality when it comes to Superman but not Captain America? They have literally the same personality.

Also, the idea that Superman is some sort of government stooge comes from ignorance of Superman's actual character. This is a character who expressed major opposition to the Iraq War during Joe Kelly's JLA run. DCU Superman has never been a government stooge, blindly following some Orwellian dictator.

And Superman should be a paragon of heroism that people look up to. Again, I'm gonna invoke the Captain America example. People in the Marvel U look at Steve literally the same way. Why don't people get upset at that? Does that mean Superman is gonna be a perfect person? No, of course not. He's always been written with character flaws. But he should be that guy people place their faith in in times of crisis. The Reeves Superman displayed that perfectly.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't think anyone's ever challenged that the trunks don't serve a purpose in terms of color aesthetic. Just that its not the only way to achieve visually pleasing balance. Maybe some believe that its not even the best way. And all are valid opinions.

Me, my complete ideal has really never been seen to fruition, really. There's been something I've liked about every design. And I think they all have their way of balancing color. I've always said and I still say that its not necessarily quantity but quality. Proper placement. In any case, if you twist my arm I probably prefer no trunks these days, but I still prefer the yellow belt and buckle, and that's never been utilized in a way I've really liked in a trunksless costume. The JRJR revamp came the closest but not even that wasn't perfect and then on top of it outside of one time they stopped coloring the buckle yellow. But none of them have ever had a problem in regards to color balance, imo.

[Flash Gordon]

The problem, to me, seem to be fans utter inability to say "I like this because it appeals to my personal sensibilities and taste, but I acknowledge that it is in no way an objective fact." Or, more simply, "I really that, and I can tell you why if you like."

But that'll never happen

I'm just going to pop in and say "What SK and Superlad said!"

Per usual!

[Superlad93]

While I'm not a fan of the Earth-One OGNs, I do really dig the art, and especially the costume.

I freakin love that costume. Gary Frank made it definitive in the Multiversity Guidebook. I honestly would go for that look in all form of media including the movies. In regards to texture I tend to disagree that adding in a lot texture or visual effects to the baseline design of a character is always a good idea when it comes to comics. The reason being that the character's look has to accommodate the need to be drawn by multiple people with different art styles. As we've seen with the New 52 (it's lines) and even Reborn look (its belt), it's very easy for artist to deviate for a number of reasons (time, angle of shot, art style). So when it comes to characters as big as Superman (who will be drawn often and by multiple people) it makes more sense, to me personally, to go for a relatively simple look.

The Earth One look, I think, is a pretty great because it has the implication of texture if an artist wants to use it, but it's also simple enough to accommodate a smooth or simplistic style with the only big addition being unintrusive two lines and yellow border on the shield.

For those who haven't seen it