Superman's Red Trunks Return in Action #1000

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I work with 3-6 years old during our holidays, and I've never heard one wanting to be Superman. Spiderman or Batman; Lightning Mac Queen, yes, sometimes, but Superman ? Never. As a kid I wore Spiderman outfits once or twice and liked it, but never saw a Superman one until I was at least ten-twelve, I think (but it was still a time when Internet and the possibility to buy online, even articles from other countries , was almost non-existent, it's easier now to get some, and obviously kids don't come costumed to the holiday daycare)

Again, this has been your experience. Doesn't mean its the same as others' experience.

[Ascended]

I'm not even sure how much of a sales boost comics would see if they started catering to all ages at grocery stores/newstands again to be honest. I don't have any data specifically, but selling to kids that have phones and the internet would be a real uphill battle. There's little interest among my teen cousins in even reading the very nice hardcover editions of GOAT-tier comics I have available to them at all times.

Oh, spinner racks at grocery stores isn't the solution. Print in any format isn't the solution. You want younger people to start reading comics? You go digital. And you build your product with that demographic and medium in mind. The current same-day digital program is great; it's been very successful but it's a half-measure. The industry needs to lean into that side of distribution a lot harder, and build the material to fit.

Kids today seem to be very sophisticated and complex, much more so, then I was when I was growing up. With so many things competing for their attention, of which, the span is short so, unless "an attention grabber" hits with the force of a supernova, it goes into the "later pile".

Really, I wonder just how many people (kids) today can appreciate a (non-computerized) good book, while reading stuff like: "Weird Tales - mag", "Ray Bradbury", "Homer's Odyssey", or even "Dr. Seuss" etc....

A real Book, one that you can hold in your hands and turn the pages, then use your imagination to fill in the gaps? Those days are rapidly going the way of the "rotary phone" and looking up something at a library using the "Dewey Decimal System".

Well I for one am happy to see the death of the Dewey decimal system. I always hated it.

And yes, kids are more complex than they used to be. I wouldn't say they're more sophisticated but they have to deal with stuff we never did. And they expect to see their experiences and concerns reflected in their fiction, just like we do.

And I think you'd be surprised by how many kids read (yes, even the classics. Who do you think bought all those copies of Brave New World when trump took office? It wasn't just us). They might be using Kindle instead of a physical book but they're still reading. Literacy rates are on the rise. You seem to think of kids as nothing more than the "useless Millennial" stereotype, and while there's plenty of idiot kids eating Tide pods out there, that's not doing justice to the whole generation. I mean, I hate Millennials as much as the next adult, but they still read plenty.

They're a viable audience who would happily read comics....if only the comics were handled in a way (both from a distribution standpoint and a quality one) that appealed to them. They spend money on the movies and related merchandise, they'd spend money on the comics if the comics were worth their time.

[Miles To Go]

I work with 3-6 years old during our holidays, and I've never heard one wanting to be Superman. Spiderman or Batman; Lightning Mac Queen, yes, sometimes, but Superman ? Never. As a kid I wore Spiderman outfits once or twice and liked it, but never saw a Superman one until I was at least ten-twelve, I think (but it was still a time when Internet and the possibility to buy online, even articles from other countries , was almost non-existent, it's easier now to get some, and obviously kids don't come costumed to the holiday daycare)

So you're completly oblivious to every Superman cosplayer ever then.

[Korath]

So you're completly oblivious to every Superman cosplayer ever then.

I don't remember any comic cosplay at my local geek convention. Admittedly, it isn't the biggest in the country, but the biggest is called Japan Expo, so most of those cosplayers are more manga/video game oriented.

[Stardust]

I work with 3-6 years old during our holidays, and I've never heard one wanting to be Superman. Spiderman or Batman; Lightning Mac Queen, yes, sometimes, but Superman ? Never. As a kid I wore Spiderman outfits once or twice and liked it, but never saw a Superman one until I was at least ten-twelve, I think (but it was still a time when Internet and the possibility to buy online, even articles from other countries , was almost non-existent, it's easier now to get some, and obviously kids don't come costumed to the holiday daycare).

And you are of course able to hide your distaste towards most versions of Superman from those kids with a calm mask, and wouldn't give them any reason not to tell you if they liked the character.

[Korath]

And you are of course able to hide your distaste towards most versions of Superman from those kids with a calm mask, and wouldn't give them any reason not to tell you if they liked the character.

Since they never even asked me about the character, or that he (and most characters, to be fair, baring perhaps Batman and Spiderman, who only pops up in "My bag as Spiderman on it" or "Look I got Batman's shoes" or even "my Lego Batman") haven't ever been the subject of conversation (keep in mind that 3 to 6 years old aren't exposed so much to cultural influences yet), it's not something which has ever happened. But if it had done or should happen in the future, I wouldn't recommend them All-Star Superman, nor any version with the ugly underwear on the outside. I would like kids to have great role models, not God-like beings in outdated outfits who aren't able to teach them anything of value beyond "some greater power will come and save you if you're good".

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Since they never even asked me about the character, or that he (and most characters, to be fair, baring perhaps Batman and Superman, who only pops up in "My bag as Spiderman on it" or "Look I got Batman's shoes" or even "my Lego Batman") haven't ever been the subject of conversation (keep in mind that 3 to 6 years old aren't exposed so much to cultural influences yet), it's not something which has ever happened. But if it had done or should happen in the future, I wouldn't recommend them All-Star Superman, nor any version with the ugly underwear on the outside. I would like kids to have great role models, not God-like beings in outdated outfits who aren't able to teach them anything of value beyond "some greater power will come and save you if you're good".

If you think that THAT's the only message communicated in almost 80 years of Superman comics, then you really need to read more about the character. What you cite has pretty much never been the central message of Superman. The central message is that no matter what, Superman cares about you. He'll fight for you regardless of your background, or your race, or even your opinion of him.

[Korath]

If you think that THAT's the only message communicated in almost 80 years of Superman comics, then you really need to read more about the character. What you cite has pretty much never been the central message of Superman. The central message is that no matter what, Superman cares about you. He'll fight for you regardless of your background, or your race, or even your opinion of him.

Yeah. Well, if he could do that without the paternalistic undertone and the depiction as some god-like being, it would be great. In fact, it was during New 52. But apparently, real fans didn't like it and left en masse.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah. Well, if he could do that without the paternalistic undertone and the depiction as some god-like being, it would be great. In fact, it was during New 52. But apparently, real fans didn't like it and left en masse.

Uh, you keep forgetting that many us read the New 52 comics. They sucked. Fans left because they didn't like the stories being told. And they didn't like being told that the stories they'd invested however many years in didn't count any more. Sound familiar?

And you seriously wanna talk "god like"? I seem to remember a time when New 52 Superman was benching 7 times the Earth's weight. How is that not OP and godlike??

In fact, one of the main complaints that people had with Superman Post-Crisis was that he was de-powered too much.

But if you have objections to "god like beings," well I have to say that pretty much all of superhero comics feature godlike beings. Some superhero comics literally star gods (Marvel's Thor and Hercules; Wonder Woman and her supporting cast; etc.).

Also, again, as many have reminded you, Superman wasn't really paternalistic or the tool of "American exceptionalism" you've made him out to be. He famously opposed the Iraq War when that issue was first coming up and before the New 52, renounced his American citizenship because he didn't want to be seen as a tool of a American policy.

[Sacred Knight]

Nevermind, clarification given below.

To each their own. I'm a fan of New 52 Superman too but I see him in a different light, one not so dissimilar from other incarnations.

[Korath]

You fail to understand that it's not the powers which make him God-like, it's the way he is depicted using them. He was human in the New 52, in the way he acted and reacted to his powers, up until his end. Rebirth Superman mostly isn't and All-Star showed that even before being "poisoned" he wasn't. That's my problem. That you fail to see it like I do doesn't mean i'm wrong, it means that I have different sensibilities, and that I really, really, dislike this depiction of Superman, no matter how iconic it may be, because it seeds what I deem bad values into the readership. Plus, it make for insufferable stories. And I have zero interest in reading more stories in the vein of All-Star Superman, which was physically painful for me to finish. I fail to see why I should endure it just to please a bunch of fans who passed over the New 52 because Superman wasn't this incarnation of paternalism and an all-powerful perfect hero.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You fail to understand that it's not the powers which make him God-like, it's the way he is depicted using them. He was human in the New 52, in the way he acted and reacted to his powers, up until his end. Rebirth Superman mostly isn't and All-Star showed that even before being "poisoned" he wasn't. That's my problem. That you fail to see it like I do doesn't mean i'm wrong, it means that I have different sensibilities, and that I really, really, dislike this depiction of Superman, no matter how iconic it may be, because it seeds what I deem bad values into the readership. Plus, it make for insufferable stories. And I have zero interest in reading more stories in the vein of All-Star Superman, which was physically painful for me to finish. I fail to see why I should endure it just to please a bunch of fans who passed over the New 52 because Superman wasn't this incarnation of paternalism and an all-powerful perfect hero.

Can you provide some actual concrete examples? Because if anything, Superman was less human in the New 52. I mean, you really think him having pretty much no ties to human characters around him and running around with a demigoddess girlfriend is more relatable than him having a human wife, human coworkers who he has relationships with, a half human son to raise, along with a household, domestic life, etc.?

And nobody passed over the New 52 because New 52 Superman was no longer paternalistic or "perfect" or "all-powerful" because, well, Superman wasn't like that before the New 52.

He was not paternalistic because he never really saw himself as "above" anybody. He never wanted to have his actions construed as an authoritative position to be followed by others. He tried to lead by example. But that example wasn't really "follow me because I'm always right."

He wasn't perfect or all powerful. Superman isn't even close to the most powerful being in the DCU.

Pre-Flashpoint/Post-Crisis Superman famously considered himself more human than alien. He saw himself first and foremost as Clark Kent, not Superman. That's just a fact. New 52 Clark saw himself as unbounded by human convention and as an outsider to human society. So...which one is more human?

[Korath]

He may have seen himself as more human prior to the New 52, but he wasn't (in the stories I read from that era, which is the trilogy surrounding his Death, if you want to know, and several All-Star, Kingdom Come and Red Son), it's what I'm trying to say. He doesn't need to be tied at the wrist by Lois Lane or the cast of the Daily Planet which is constantly in awe of him to be human. He doesn't need his parents or even just is Ma to be alive to be human. He just need to behave like one, from its core, to think like one of us, and that's what the New 52 Superman did (at least, it did in my eyes). In all his struggles, all his hurdles, he thought and fought like a good human being. The New 52 also had the help of its overall narrative and yes, that now (in)famous pairing with Diana where he became more human than he has ever been in my eyes in the way he lived his romance with her, how he evolved and how he presented his life and his vision of his life to Diana (and thus the reader). It is not something I've found in Rebirth, nor in any of those stories, save Kingdom Come (which is kind of crazy, considering that this else-world had so much of religious background and wasn't even trying to hide it but built on it).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

He may have seen himself as more human prior to the New 52, but he wasn't (in the stories I read from that era, which is the trilogy surrounding his Death, if you want to know, and several All-Star, Kingdom Come and Red Son), it's what I'm trying to say. He doesn't need to be tied at the wrist by Lois Lane or the cast of the Daily Planet which is constantly in awe of him to be human. He doesn't need his parents or even just is Ma to be alive to be human. He just need to behave like one, from its core, to think like one of us, and that's what the New 52 Superman did (at least, it did in my eyes). In all his struggles, all his hurdles, he thought and fought like a good human being. The New 52 also had the help of its overall narrative and yes, that now (in)famous pairing with Diana where he became more human than he has ever been in my eyes in the way he lived his romance with her, how he evolved and how he presented his life and his vision of his life to Diana (and thus the reader). It is not something I've found in Rebirth, nor in any of those stories, save Kingdom Come (which is kind of crazy, considering that this else-world had so much of religious background and wasn't even trying to hide it but built on it).

Except the New 52 Superman did NOT view himself as human. That was kind of the whole point of the SuperWonder relationship. They got together BECAUSE they both saw themselves as OUTSIDERS and couldn’t seem to relate to or fit in with humans. They pretty much said as much during their first kiss.

Again, can you provide any actual examples of New 52 Supes being more human???? Not blanket statements with no evidence to back them up.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that three of the stories you mention (the majority of your experience with Superman) are non-canon takes on Superman. And I can’t really say that there’s anything in the Death arc that make sense him seem “inhuman” or out of touch. I mean, there’s a scene in it when he goes on a talk show to try and communicate with the public his reasoning for joining the Justice League. Reaching out to everyday people doesn’t sound like he’s too godlike to me. But I’m also of the mindset that All Star also doesn’t make him seem inhuman especially as it deals with his mortality.

But also, have you ever read Up, Up, and Away from Kurt Busiek’s Superman run? Or Camelot Falls? Or Action 775? Or For the Man Eho Has Everything? Or pretty much any other Superman stories from over 80 years of publication?

[Sacred Knight]

Superman's not human. This shouldn't ever be lost on the character. He adores humanity. He loves them with every ounce of his being and will go to bat for them 10 times out of 10. That's the whole reason he makes the conscious decision to serve and protect them, where a lot of other people in his situation would want to rule them. But he's not human. He walks among them but he's not one of them.

Can you go overboard with that? Sure. Can you go overboard in the other direction? Hell yes. Its about balance. In some ways he has a human frame of mind because he was raised like one. But in other ways he very much does not. There are so many aspects of about Superman that require a balancing act, and this is just one of them. You mess up one and the whole package can get screwed up. Its a tight-rope act with Superman that can be difficult and that difficulty I feel doesn't get the attention it deserves, nor writers the credit they deserve when they do balance it. I'm not trying to say he's the hardest character in literature to write or anything like that, but there are nuances to him nonetheless.