Superman's Red Trunks Return in Action #1000

[Soubhagya]

For me All Star Superman is the best Superman story i have read so far. I don't get how someone thinks its bad. I am not deriding that opinion. But only getting to something specific like how he is something like that i can begin to understand. Simply saying that he is this and this, means nothing. Unless its backed by something. I am failing to understand the arguments.

So, he saved Regan. He shouldn't have saved her? Is this the argument? Or he shall not do anything with those great powers of his own? If he is really paternal he would take over the world like Injustice or Red Son and impose his strength and will on others.

I looked up the meaning of paternalistic in Oxford dictionary. Here it was:

Paternalistic

Relating to or characterized by the restriction of the freedom and responsibilities of subordinates or dependants in their supposed interest.

Can i say he is paternal when he is saying this?



If yes why? If no why not?

I don't find that paternal. Shall he not warn the big guys from exploiting the weak? But its possible to argue that it is paternal. Who has given him the right to do this? We can argue anything by twisting anything.

[Korath]

Yes, trunk were. But "were" is the operative word. Society moved and while cape remained the hallmark of "nobility" (heard largely) in fiction (because I don't think that anybody wears them outside of conventions, bals, etc.) for whatever reason, the trunk/underwear fell down and were given up. Therefore, by clinging to it, Superman doesn't look like that regal character staying true to its root, but he is akin to that old neighbor you see wearing clothes which have been basically out of fashion for the last fifty years (at least, I know we do have those kind of guys here in France, with the beret, and all the rest).

Capes are even multicultural even if sometimes artists work around it. Take One Piece : almost no one actually wear a cape... but almost all the big shots wear coats as if they were capes, with a clear message that the badass and powerful guys are the one with this style, to the point that when a main character as, for a film, his design changed for the final battle, he almost always wear a coat as if it was cape. I think that generally speaking, capes have enjoyed a kind of "cultural relevancy" because of what they can represent : nobility and power (like Superman) but also mystery and fear (like Batman). Trunks/underwear have mostly fallen on the wayside because they never were associated strongly with those qualities, but more to the strong men of a certain era, in a certain cultural milieu, and when those guys basically disappeared from public view and were largely forgotten by the people, they hadn't anything to connect them to "cultural relevancy" outside of the mediums where they still appeared (comics) and were thus mostly given up.

Plus, Superman's color scheme doesn't help him. Using Batman's use of trunk to say that it's okay for Superman to have his fail to note that black on grey (sometimes even really dark grey) means that Batman's trunk are easily overlooked by the public, when Superman's bright red catch the eye and thus distract a lot more the reader/watcher.

For me All Star Superman is the best Superman story i have read so far. I don't get how someone thinks its bad. I am not deriding that opinion. But only getting to something specific like how he is something like that i can begin to understand. Simply saying that he is this and this, means nothing. Unless its backed by something. I am failing to understand the arguments.

So, he saved Regan. He shouldn't have saved her? Is this the argument? Or he shall not do anything with those great powers of his own? If he is really paternal he would take over the world like Injustice or Red Son and impose his strength and will on others.

I looked up the meaning of paternalistic in Oxford dictionary. Here it was:

Paternalistic

Relating to or characterized by the restriction of the freedom and responsibilities of subordinates or dependants in their supposed interest.

But did he saves her ? Or did he in fact said to her that she was wrong to deal with her problems like that without providing means for her to get better ? He essentially comes in, says "I can relate BUT I know better " and call it a day. Yes, it's poignant and beautiful on page, but then again, factory bosses in the XIXth Century did provide places for their workers to live for cheap... and did nothing to help them out of poverty, quite the contrary even. It's why All-Star Superman cames out at paternalistic. He doesn't deal with the underlying root of the problem. He basically says platitudes and it's over. We never see him connecting with Reagan, at all.

Also, while Red Son definitively is paternalistic at first, he devolves into tyranny with the best of intentions, but tyranny is a whole other beast than simply paternalism, which is far more widespread in our western societies than many want to admit, in my opinion. Injustice is an insane tyrant, someone who needed help and, because peoples are flawed, didn't received it or failed to understand what it was (I strongly believe that Injustice Batman should have reached out and talked about it with Superman a lot more before going full Insurgency on him).

[Soubhagya]

But did he saves her ? Or did he in fact said to her that she was wrong to deal with her problems like that without providing means for her to get better ? He essentially comes in, says "I can relate BUT I know better " and call it a day. Yes, it's poignant and beautiful on page, but then again, factory bosses in the XIXth Century did provide places for their workers to live for cheap... and did nothing to help them out of poverty, quite the contrary even. It's why All-Star Superman cames out at paternalistic. He doesn't deal with the underlying root of the problem. He basically says platitudes and it's over. We never see him connecting with Reagan, at all.

Also, while Red Son definitively is paternalistic at first, he devolves into tyranny with the best of intentions, but tyranny is a whole other best than simply paternalism, which is far more widespread in our western societies than many want to admit, in my opinion. Injustice is an insane tyrant, someone who needed help and, because peoples are flawed, didn't received it or failed to understand what it was (I strongly believe that Injustice Batman should have reached out and talked about it with Superman a lot more before going full Insurgency on him).

When you say tyranny is a lot better then paternalism i will have to stop there. I mean isn't it easy to say something like this? That's a big thing to say. Ask the people of countries whose previous generations experienced tyranny and are still trying escape from its ill effects. And those who even now are suffering from tyranny of their rulers. I have to hold my head while trying to begin to say something here.

Anyway. Yes they are platitudes. He did not exactly save her. Remember her doctor being held up for real. That was him stopping her for a moment before jumping off. That's not a realistic way in dealing with a situation. And it isn't meant to be realistic. Can you simply say two words and people will stop trying to kill themselves? Superman here is to do things which others can't. The doctor can't reach in time. So, he reached there. But words are powerful enough to make people pause. Especially when the one speaking is the most powerful person in the world who is always busy doing a whole lot of 'important' things then speaking with a small and a weak girl.


And lets not forget he himself is dying. And spending some time with his love. He will die leaving her forever. How much can he do while leaving them free to make their own decisions?

There is a problem here. He has powers to strike at the root of problems. He can actually solve them. Its a practical thing for him. But do we know the answers? Does Superman know the answers? Do we know that interfering in his manner is going to solve it or make it worse? Your ideas are interesting, But All Star Superman does not aim to tackle it. Its aim is different. A kind of showcase for Superman of the Silver and Bronze Ages. The one so powerful that he can move around planets. With such powers its a practical problem for him.

And here is something where i am puzzled. If he becomes so powerful can he look after the small guy? Can he look past the Darkseids who definitely are problems but aren't the real problems of humanity?

[Korath]

I meant beast rather than best talking about tyranny, sorry, it was a misspelling mistake.

Also, regarding this New 52 Action Comics exemple, what he says and does isn't paternalistic, because it upset the structure of society, while paternalism feeds on them. The "natural" order for paternalism is that the wealthy, those who have "succeeded", whatever it may means for them, know best and are thus allowed to not only write but also bent the rules. Here, Superman basically says that the laws are the same for everyone, which is basically the reverse of paternalism, and is a lot more closer to revolutionary ideals (that there should be no privileges and that nobody should be able to escape the consequences of his acts because of who he is, or how wealthy, etc.).

Edit : a good example of paternalism would be the current French President, who for instance said that in a train station you'll meet 'those who have succeeded and those who are nothing" but that the former have the moral duty to help the latter. Which is basically textbook paternalism : those who have are inherently better than those who have not and thus have the right to determine what's best for the other.

[Soubhagya]

Okay i misunderstood you.

I don't look for such things in imaginary characters. The story for me has a different scope. Both are great stories. One is going on a street level. Other on the planetary or galaxy levels.

So, there's this problem. How do you bring these two together. Superman who can move planets can definitely solve more down to earth problems, the root of problems, (Assuming there is a solution. And the solution isn't making the problem worse).

How do one reconcile these two kinds of stories?



I think i can see why you don't like the story of All Star. That kind of story is like a science fiction of a modern day fairy tale nature.

I think you will agree that he isn't doing anything wrong. But by letting the system stay that way he is doing bad. I get this is what you are saying.

[Korath]

Either have him not being able to solve some of those problems (kind of like the New 52 version wasn't such a great scientist, even if he was far from dumb) or have him help do it covertly. If it's the later that is chosen, have him, I don't know, create a clean and cheap way to stock energy and give the patent to Batman, so he can give it to Lucius Fox or Luke Fox, who will then claim that they have made a crazy breakthrough and simply have the cars and all running on this clean energy later on. Being able to move a planet, after all, doesn't mean that one can solve world poverty with his muscles (except if he becomes a bully/tyrant).

[jimmy]

Capes harken back to a regal style, and are in fact associated with nobility and royalty in a lot of today's show (just look at Game of thrones, where a lot of characters wear capes, and almost always they are a part of the nobility). Underwears on the outside makes one look silly, it's the kind of thing you see at Mardi Gras or a carnival, it's not evocative of greatness and power like capes can be. And even then, new characters (both heroes or villain) don't have capes, except when their Creator want to link them to a kind of nobility.

All Star might be my favorite superhero trade after Born Again and Fall of the Mutants, but I do think it's a bit overrated and can see Superman as a tad paternalistic. Especially in the leering, lumbering style of Frank Quitely.

The thing about capes seeming noble though... there's nothing inherent to them, we give capes that distinction. We can just as easily regard something else as being that cool. Trunks and the basic design elements of Superman in general were cool enough for Batman, Wolverine, Magneto, and half of everyone else to swipe.

100 percent correct! -

The artificial distinction was given by mankind for both articles of clothing, based mainly on opinion for the criteria!!

Korath - based on your personal experiences, media and what you consider to be popular in society - you - were simply influence to both, think and believe that -

1: "Capes" are Noble and good while,
2: "Belted Pants-Trunks" are Underwear (which is false /lie), bad.

As ends don't justify the means, but the means are the same.
Remember, just because something is popular, doesn't mean or, make it right, and brother, history is full of that!

[TruthAndJustice]

Just a minor dissent re: All-Star Superman:

1) It's too long. It could've been told in six issues rather than twelve.

2) Frank Quitely is great when he's drawing science-fiction stories like We3. He's awful when drawing superhero stories. I wish Morrison had worked with someone else.

So yes, I think All-Star Superman is overrated. Then again, I think Watchmen is overrated. (Miracleman is better!)

[micahbevans88]

Just a minor dissent re: All-Star Superman:

1) It's too long. It could've been told in six issues rather than twelve.

2) Frank Quitely is great when he's drawing science-fiction stories like We3. He's awful when drawing superhero stories. I wish Morrison had worked with someone else.

So yes, I think All-Star Superman is overrated. Then again, I think Watchmen is overrated. (Miracleman is better!)

All-star being my favorite superman book of all time and overall one of my favorite of all time, if I had to come up with something I didn't like about it--the bizarro story is my least favorite and it has two issues devoted to it instead of one. I'm also still working my way through superman's silver age stories so I'm not familiar with how bizarro originally was portrayed apart from a couple of stories but I don't care for the bizarro planet being one giant cosmic being.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well then, it's too bad that you peoples can be so guillible and blind to the fact that, guess what, not everyone is the same. Yes, for me All-Star Superman is an unsufferable jerk, and reading about him require me to accept the fact that it will be a real torture. I stress it again : reading All-Star Superman or any kind of Superman like him his mentally and physically painful. I hate this depiction of the character, even the moment when he save someone from suicide isn't anything else than a paternalistic boss telling his "inferior" employee that he knows and that therefore, the employee is wrong to try and act against his pain the only way he can. That's not how such a situation should be dealt with, plain and simple.

...Reagan is not an employee? I really don't get that dynamic at all. Should he have just let her jump? How is an unrelated bystander reaching out to someone about to take their own life and trying to convince them otherwise paternalistic?

And so what if we don't see him bond with her in the rest of the story? He's dying himself and there are affairs to put in order. He doesn't have time, and she already has someone to rely on, her therapist. Who genuinely wanted to help and couldn't reach her in time, so Superman helped out. His simple act of kindness was enough to help her re-consider her choice, and reaffirm faith in the person she already had. The story is under no obligation to do any more than that.

But did he saves her ? Or did he in fact said to her that she was wrong to deal with her problems like that without providing means for her to get better ? He essentially comes in, says "I can relate BUT I know better " and call it a day. Yes, it's poignant and beautiful on page, but then again, factory bosses in the XIXth Century did provide places for their workers to live for cheap... and did nothing to help them out of poverty, quite the contrary even. It's why All-Star Superman cames out at paternalistic. He doesn't deal with the underlying root of the problem. He basically says platitudes and it's over. We never see him connecting with Reagan, at all.

He doesn't do anything to reinforce problems either. It isn't that type of story, it's more of a modern myth/fairy tale. It's a story about tyrant suns, Bizarro World, and Lex Luthor being an arrogant dick. You must regard all superheros as paternalistic because they don't always tackle those subjects. Batman spends most of his existence punching garish supervillains in the face, not solving societal ills,because that's less exciting. Do we call him paternalistic? The New 52 Action run deals with those things because that was its aim. And the author probably regards it as the same take on the character, just at different stages of his life and in different types of stories. Morrison's New 52 run was planned as a prequel to All Star, right?

What can he do to help Reagan with the root of her problems? He isn't a therapist, I don't think he's equipped. If he took on that role while he was a few days from dying and facing an imminent invasion from Solaris, he'd probably screw her up more. And she already has a therapist.

[jimmy]

All-star being my favorite superman book of all time and overall one of my favorite of all time, if I had to come up with something I didn't like about it--the bizarro story is my least favorite and it has two issues devoted to it instead of one. I'm also still working my way through superman's silver age stories so I'm not familiar with how bizarro originally was portrayed apart from a couple of stories but I don't care for the bizarro planet being one giant cosmic being.

Yeah, I did like Bizarro tale either, it seemed out of place some how, can't put my finger on it. Agreed, just say NO to Bizarro planet.

Just reading all of these threads, I will have, to re-read "All Star S" since I don't remember get a paternalism vibe from Superman??

[SiegePerilous02]

The only thing I didn't like about All Star was that I feel it didn't do nearly enough with Lois. Nothing bad, but the issue that should have been focused on her was hijacked by Samson and Atlas (who I otherwise found amusing).

Aside from that, it's pretty near perfect.

[TheNomadicOne]

All-star Superman is very good, but it isn't my favorite Superman tale. That goes to Superman: For All Seasons. Anyone like this book?

[Soubhagya]

I love All Seasons. My favorite is All Star but All Seasons is great too. Each issue had a poem like quality.

[micahbevans88]

Last time I read it was about 10 years ago when i was on vacation in california. Nice memories.