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  1. #871
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    It is interesting that Wonder Woman's costume is radically different than the 1940s version and no one seems to mind.
    Exactly. It really is okay to change a costume around a little bit. If for no other reason than to keep it fresh. Clark himself is no stranger to this, and shouldn't be. It's good for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    Well, there is nothing like a decent brand of Scotch to kill the pain!! - Scotty would be proud! LOL.
    I do enjoy ordering Godfathers at restaurants. That drink hasn't been popular since the 50's, I believe, and no one ever knows what I'm talking about. Makes me seem far more educated in my liquors than I am.

    Ottoman empire? Ambitious - now, that’s a name I haven’t heard since I left school the “old Turkish province”, however - I did write my graduate dissertation thesis paper on - “Captain Kirk” and how to apply his techniques of command in a corporate environment....
    Now *that* is a paper I'd like to read! I wouldn't have expected such a nerdy topic to be allowed for your dissertation?

    And I gotta fix a mistake from my last post before a history buff catches it. I meant to say "Ottoman, Safavid, and Indian" not Mughal. Last paper I wrote was about the Mughal. not this latest one.

    Thank you, always found myself taking test and the CMA and CPA are multi day exams yuck - however, I would trade all of those degrees in, just to play baseball for the Dodgers
    I hear you. For me, it was always about drawing Superman. That's what I spent the first twenty-something years of my life wanting to do.

    The old double standard it would seem -
    Wonder woman in the 40’s and 50’s - she went from skirt to a shorts, and from boots, to the espadrilles sandals. It is kind of funny as the costume WW use to wear, was more "Western Civilization" inspired, which is in stark contrast with the costume she has on and wears now, which is straight out of the history books, with old Persian / Spartan looks.
    I'd guess that, back in the 40's, it was about making sure everyone knew Diana was properly "Westernized" despite her Greek heritage. Couldn't have the little kids thinking that another nation was as great as the U S of A after all (even if that nation was a fictional island of women no one could reach). Now its about showing Diana's culture off, because its no longer dangerous and strange, but exotic and exciting.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Exactly. It really is okay to change a costume around a little bit. If for no other reason than to keep it fresh. Clark himself is no stranger to this, and shouldn't be. It's good for him.



    I do enjoy ordering Godfathers at restaurants. That drink hasn't been popular since the 50's, I believe, and no one ever knows what I'm talking about. Makes me seem far more educated in my liquors than I am.



    Now *that* is a paper I'd like to read! I wouldn't have expected such a nerdy topic to be allowed for your dissertation?

    And I gotta fix a mistake from my last post before a history buff catches it. I meant to say "Ottoman, Safavid, and Indian" not Mughal. Last paper I wrote was about the Mughal. not this latest one.



    I hear you. For me, it was always about drawing Superman. That's what I spent the first twenty-something years of my life wanting to do.



    I'd guess that, back in the 40's, it was about making sure everyone knew Diana was properly "Westernized" despite her Greek heritage. Couldn't have the little kids thinking that another nation was as great as the U S of A after all (even if that nation was a fictional island of women no one could reach). Now its about showing Diana's culture off, because its no longer dangerous and strange, but exotic and exciting.
    I’d have to dig deeper into Marston history but I THINK the patriotic costume came first, back when she was going to be Superba. Marston probably tacked the Greek stuff on after the costume design to reinforce his ideas about pacifist female domination.

    The Amazons fluctuated in how “ancient” they could be. In general, I think Marston’s take was closer to Wakanda. Fully modern, fully technological to the point of being centuries beyond Man’s World.

  3. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    Superman's iconic uniform is indeed a part of what makes him who and what he is and, as such, deserves to be fully preserved and respected along with the character.
    This makes me think if Superman fans are actually fans of the character or the costume.

    I remember being obsessed with his chest symbol so much that now I realize if he didn't have it, I wouldn't care about him. I actually photoshopped it out, once, and I was floored by how much it detrimented the character visually.

    Instead, when I tried it on Batman, the loss of the symbol on the chest had barely any impact on the aestethics of the character.

  4. #874
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    I’d have to dig deeper into Marston history but I THINK the patriotic costume came first, back when she was going to be Superba. Marston probably tacked the Greek stuff on after the costume design to reinforce his ideas about pacifist female domination.

    The Amazons fluctuated in how “ancient” they could be. In general, I think Marston’s take was closer to Wakanda. Fully modern, fully technological to the point of being centuries beyond Man’s World.
    Ah yes, I forgot about that Supera (or whatever he called it, was it really Superba?) phase! Nice catch, that's some deep Marston history right there. I had completely forgotten about that, it's only been referenced in one of the books my wife and I have about the early Golden Age heroes.

    Yeah, perhaps the Greek stuff did get tacked on afterwards. That would explain the design. And I'd agree that Themyscria was more "modern ancient" like Wakanda, but the Greek roots were still quite prominent.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #875
    Mighty Member andersonh1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    You're defending subjectivity with your own subjective opinion. The truth of the matter is that there is indeed great relevance to Superman's uniform in its evolved totality. From the standpoint of the superhero story as a legitimate genre, the iconic uniform is the first of its kind and therefore should never be changed. It is, like the character who wears it, the first of its kind. It has been erroneous linked to a pre-existing trend, the outfit of the strongman, but strongmen did not wear long-sleeved shirts nor a cape, nor did any other fictional character wear a cape in the way that Siegel and Shuster designed Superman's. This means that the uniform in its iconic form is the first of its kind and a one of kind. As such, it visually symbolizes those same traits that apply to Superman himself.

    As for the trunks from a mytho-historical/cultural standpoint, the girding of the loins dates back thousands of years as a symbol of masculine strength and virility, including the beliefs of Semitic peoples. Siegel and Shuster understood this and implemented the trunks as an updated form of the inner garments worn by Hebrew men.

    These are not subjective concepts but rather objective truths that apply to a character that, while not tied to the ritualistic and social customs associated with religion, is nevertheless a distillation of various heroic myths. Siegel and Shuster were repeatedly quoted as saying that key inspirations to their third iteration of Superman was Hercules and Samson.

    The post-modern subjectivist/deconstructionist trend has led to the fallacious belief that there was no real import or purpose to the design of Superman's uniform or that of other superheroes and that these characters should be changed in whatever ways are necessary to "update" them or "make them relevant." This is a dangerous approach to myth and culture that has an extensive historical precedent. The accidents or incidental qualities of myths can be changed (like, for example, setting) but the core of a myth must remain unchanged. The original, pre-Disney Star Wars films are the best modern examples of old myths being re-packaged and synthesized in a new form without losing their truths. In contrast, David Goyer's approach to both Batman and Superman subverts the mythical truths of the characters for the sake of "realism" and "sophistication," keeping incidentals while jettisoning the unities of the characters that make them what they are. The same applies to the loss of the trunks and the recasting of Superman as angst-ridden, self-absorbed, and violent. These elements are connected and when one is lost, it becomes easier to further dilute the character's essence and arrive at only a pale caricature sharing only a name a few similar details.
    Well said. You make some great points.

  6. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    It is interesting that Wonder Woman's costume is radically different than the 1940s version and no one seems to mind.
    I mind very much. There's a great deal of symbolism in that original uniform that's now missing thanks to DC's boneheaded decision to try and reflect the Snyderverse design. Here's a great video on what's been lost since the New 52 changes.

  7. #877
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    I mind very much. There's a great deal of symbolism in that original uniform that's now missing thanks to DC's boneheaded decision to try and reflect the Snyderverse design. Here's a great video on what's been lost since the New 52 changes.
    What symbolism would that be? The main elements that matter (the color scheme, the bracelets, the tiara and the eagle/stylized W) are still present, just in a more practical way. She also is no longer dressed in American flag style to be an ambassador for her people to the U.S, which is good because that's not how ambassadors work.

    There is still potential for ridiculous T&A shots of her, but it is also toned down compared to the bathing suit. It's the one recent costume change that is a roaring success.

  8. #878
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    I mind very much. There's a great deal of symbolism in that original uniform that's now missing thanks to DC's boneheaded decision to try and reflect the Snyderverse design. Here's a great video on what's been lost since the New 52 changes.
    Diana hasn't worn her 40's era outfit (the ones with the skirts) since the 50's man.

    If you mean the bathing suit look that most of us consider her "classic" costume, I think it's been about nine years or so since she's worn that. She lost that with Robinson's Odyssey arc, long before the movies came along and over a year before the New52 reboot.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #879
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Diana hasn't worn her 40's era outfit (the ones with the skirts) since the 50's man.

    If you mean the bathing suit look that most of us consider her "classic" costume, I think it's been about nine years or so since she's worn that. She lost that with Robinson's Odyssey arc, long before the movies came along and over a year before the New52 reboot.
    That was JMS/Hester actually.

    I would have liked to have seen the latter on a WW run not wrapped up in the Odyssey crap. He was interested in writing a Blue Snowman story for Gods sake. It was a similar situation with GROUNDED, right? Seems JMS just breezed in, ruined two icons, and left the bag with two authors who would have been better suited to tackle them in the first place.

  10. #880
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Oh, Odyssey was another JMS production, lol.

    WW's costume, because of gender casting implications, is too big a can of worms imo. I would compare Superman's look the the Batman looks from over the years.

  11. #881
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    WW's costume, because of gender casting implications, is too big a can of worms imo. I would compare Superman's look the the Batman looks from over the years.
    Exactly. Her being a woman makes the situation with her costume radically different than the other two. She has to deal with things (like poorly done T&A shots) that they don't have to.

  12. #882
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That was JMS/Hester actually.
    Sh*t! My bad! Indeed it was JMS. Sorry, Ive been meaning to get caught up on the pile of Wonder Woman comics in front of me, and Robinson's name stuck in my head.

    And yeah, Diana's costume is a unfair comparison. Excellent point Kuwagaton.

    I still haven't forgiven DC for letting Chris Roberson slip through their fingers. What that guy did with the back-end of Grounded proved to me that he was one of the best writers for Superman we had seen since the triangle era. Huge, huge missed opportunity there.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #883
    All-New Member khairston99's Avatar
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    Why ? Why, in the year of 2018, would superman being wearing trunks?

  14. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by khairston99 View Post
    Why ? Why, in the year of 2018, would superman being wearing trunks?
    He likes the way they feel?

  15. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    What symbolism would that be? The main elements that matter (the color scheme, the bracelets, the tiara and the eagle/stylized W) are still present, just in a more practical way. She also is no longer dressed in American flag style to be an ambassador for her people to the U.S, which is good because that's not how ambassadors work.

    There is still potential for ridiculous T&A shots of her, but it is also toned down compared to the bathing suit. It's the one recent costume change that is a roaring success.
    Watch the video I linked to and you'll see what I'm talking about. I certainly don't want to see the bathing-suit bottoms return, but there are other elements that I feel should return (the stars among them) and some that should go (the sword in particular).

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