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  1. #31
    Incredible Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Been there, done that, the franchise survived.

    Believe you me, Star Wars fans being vocal about not liking something (whether within the lines of decorum or being outright jerks over it), is nothing new. The vocality of the TLJ backlash will subside and life will go on for the franchise. This's how the Force works.
    Social media wasn't as big of a factor as it was during the Prequels and Lucas had far more control of everything going on. Now studios are paying for social media tracking and there are independent tracking services gauging not just the volume but the tone of social media comments.

    How much hype and buzz really matters is up for debate. Six months out, the buzz for Jumanji was incredibly negative and now it's expecting a $15 Million plus weekend in it's 6th week while the TLJ will struggle to get $4 Million in its 7th week (20% below Rogue One). Jumanji is still in 3,553 theaters while TLJ is only in 1,745. Other studios must be kicking themselves for giving TLJ so much space and Episode IX won't be so lucky. Other studios are going to want have the next Jumanji and Episode IX will face far more competition.

    The message from Disney execs to JJ is likely is to make Episode IX appeal more to all 4 quadrants. Jumanji is cranking right now because its much more of a family movie than TLJ and people are seeing it multiple times because it's so much fun.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    Social media wasn't as big of a factor as it was during the Prequels and Lucas had far more control of everything going on. Now studios are paying for social media tracking and there are independent tracking services gauging not just the volume but the tone of social media comments.

    How much hype and buzz really matters is up for debate. Six months out, the buzz for Jumanji was incredibly negative and now it's expecting a $15 Million plus weekend in it's 6th week while the TLJ will struggle to get $4 Million in its 7th week. Jumanji is still in 3,553 theaters while TLJ is only in 1,745. Other studios must be kicking themselves for giving TLJ so much space and Episode IX won't be so lucky. Other studios are going to want have the next Jumanji and Episode IX will face far more competition.

    The message from Disney execs to JJ is likely is to make Episode IX appeal more to all 4 quadrants. Jumanji is cranking right now because its much more of a family movie than TLJ and people are seeing it multiple times because it's so much fun.
    I think they would try something more crowd pleasing in Episode IX. The middle chapters are often the most serious affairs. And one can't deny whatever one's estimate of TLJ's quality, TLJ was not that kind of crowd pleaser as TFA was. It had a more downbeat ending with heroes barely surviving. In comparison heroes did the impossible in TFA and won. Such a film is more 'feel good' and repeat viewings especially with kids is more likely with TFA then with TLJ.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    Social media wasn't as big of a factor as it was during the Prequels and Lucas had far more control of everything going on. Now studios are paying for social media tracking and there are independent tracking services gauging not just the volume but the tone of social media comments.

    How much hype and buzz really matters is up for debate. Six months out, the buzz for Jumanji was incredibly negative and now it's expecting a $15 Million plus weekend in it's 6th week while the TLJ will struggle to get $4 Million in its 7th week (20% below Rogue One). Jumanji is still in 3,553 theaters while TLJ is only in 1,745. Other studios must be kicking themselves for giving TLJ so much space and Episode IX won't be so lucky. Other studios are going to want have the next Jumanji and Episode IX will face far more competition.

    The message from Disney execs to JJ is likely is to make Episode IX appeal more to all 4 quadrants. Jumanji is cranking right now because its much more of a family movie than TLJ and people are seeing it multiple times because it's so much fun.
    So the message here is
    - make movies safe
    - appeal to the lowest common denominator
    - no risks, no chances
    - movies should be like a huge doze of Prozac

    I don't want to watch the kind of Star Wars movies you have in mind.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    I think they would try something more crowd pleasing in Episode IX. The middle chapters are often the most serious affairs. And one can't deny whatever one's estimate of TLJ's quality, TLJ was not that kind of crowd pleaser as TFA was. It had a more downbeat ending with heroes barely surviving. In comparison heroes did the impossible in TFA and won. Such a film is more 'feel good' and repeat viewings especially with kids is more likely with TFA then with TLJ.
    I found Han's death in THE FORCE AWAKENS much grimmer and more harrowing than Luke's passing in THE LAST JEDI.

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  5. #35
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    What is your opinion in regards to Disney removing "Star Wars" from the Han Solo movie when it's released in China? I guess TLJ did so poorly they want to distance this next movie from it. I know China is a factor major factor when blockbusters are produced. I wonder what this move says about the direction Star Wars is going.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I found Han's death in THE FORCE AWAKENS much grimmer and more harrowing than Luke's passing in THE LAST JEDI.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    But that was balanced by heroes winning in the end. Here it had a somber though optimistic ending. Good guys winning is what makes people more happy then simply surviving to fight another day. Not so for everyone but its definitely like that for kids. Kids can't catch those subtle nuances which can make somber endings great.

    Personally i thought both had great deaths. Han had a surprisingly poignant death. He died trying to save his son and fulfill the wishes of Leia who thought that Kylo could be redeemed. 'Bring him back'. He was trying to make his family complete again and let down his guard in order to reach out to his troubled son. But that act of kindness proved to be his downfall. He was murdered in cold blood and thus it feels more harrowing. Han Solo of New Hope would shoot first then talk. Here he lost his life due to love and family. It is indeed more harrowing. (I especially love the way Han touches his son's face after being stabbed and before falling to death. It emphasizes his love and the brutality of his murder). It was a heroic but tragic death. Scoundrel with the heart of gold.

    Luke's death was heroic but not tragic. He totally defeated his nephew (and the First Order) without lifting a finger and had the perfect death for a Jedi Knight. Triumphant, powerful and in his own terms. (He faced the entire First Order alone. A full circle for his earlier words when he asked Rey that can he fight whole armies armed with only a sword. But he did. Yet, he did not. There are better ways for the Jedi then fighting. 'Wars don't make one great'. I am so surprised that many long time Star Wars fans can't see the triumphant nature of his death). It was not emphasized as something tragic but rather something glorious. A true Jedi who saved the day loosing his life in the process. Bringing back hope to the galaxy.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-27-2018 at 10:12 PM.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    What is your opinion in regards to Disney removing "Star Wars" from the Han Solo movie when it's released in China? I guess TLJ did so poorly they want to distance this next movie from it. I know China is a factor major factor when blockbusters are produced. I wonder what this move says about the direction Star Wars is going.
    I wouldn't worry about it. After all, the previous anthology movie was just called "Rogue One."
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  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    So the message here is
    - make movies safe
    - appeal to the lowest common denominator
    - no risks, no chances
    - movies should be like a huge doze of Prozac

    I don't want to watch the kind of Star Wars movies you have in mind.
    This is my worry too. After seeing TLJ, any film would most probably be a letdown. It also is supposed to end the Trilogy. And ending films often try to tie up loose ends and can be unsatisfying, especially if the previous film has been a great one. JJ Abrams was good for bringing that Star Wars feeling back. But can he do something which is both crowd pleasing and interesting? I am keeping my fingers crossed. Please don't be bad.

    As for changing course because fans were unhappy. Its not Disney's style. Fans unhappy with TLJ say fans were unhappy and Lucasfilms and Disney shall hear the fans. My question would be which fans? Those who were unhappy or those who were happy. Prequels were hated. Disney took over. Now Disney took over. Even they are hated. A number of them are even asking for George Lucas. It looks like like the only way all can be satisfied if they don't make any more Star Wars.

    And Disney is stubborn. They do what they have to do. Unlike Warner Bros. for example. When BvS and Civil War was going to be released on the same day. Disney did not budge. WB did. People at Disney who give an impression that they have a plan and do so according to it.

    Normally i would say keep safe. DCEU is one example. I don't think MoS is a bad movie. Good but not great. BvS is not a good film. Yet both were pretty divisive. They kept reacting and made Justice League which i liked very much but it did not do much good for them. It might have been better to start with something safe with Man of Steel. Their problems started there and no course correction or adjustments helped them except for WW.

    But Lucasfilms. If they are safe they are good. I found TFA to be very good though safe. A good way to start. Then they tried to experiment and did even better. First with Rogue One and even better (in my opinion) with TLJ. In contrast to DC/WB who could hardly do any good with both being safe and being experimental.


    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    What is your opinion in regards to Disney removing "Star Wars" from the Han Solo movie when it's released in China? I guess TLJ did so poorly they want to distance this next movie from it. I know China is a factor major factor when blockbusters are produced. I wonder what this move says about the direction Star Wars is going.
    Its a wise decision. TLJ bombed there. They would not want to associate Solo to Star Wars which failed. Episode films won't do very well in China. They don't have love for the originals. And they are sequels to long running stories. Its Episode 8 of a season if i could give a loose analogy. They are not strongly connected as episodes in a series but it is very much a continuing story. Episode 7 felt like a beginning in comparison.

    And getting Chinese actors don't help much. The way to work in China is by setting Star Wars in China. Look at The Great Wall of Matt Damon for example. Or a planet which resembles China. And simplifying connections to older films. There are some small things which will help. Like the athletic light saber fights of prequels. Not my preferences. Solo has a better chance if it turns out to be entertaining.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-27-2018 at 10:50 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    It looks like like the only way all can be satisfied if they don't make any more Star Wars.
    *I* wouldn't be satisfied by that, and I'd hate the complainers for killing the golden goose by being perpetual malcontents.

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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    *I* wouldn't be satisfied by that, and I'd hate the complainers for killing the golden goose by being perpetual malcontents.

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    I don't think the ones complaining would be either. But let us face it. What more could Lucasfilm/Disney do? The film will end with 1.3 billion worldwide. It would be 5th or 6th of all time in North America and broke into top ten of Worldwide grosses. Critical reception was excellent. 90% RT rating. And most importantly 85% in Metacritic. Just for the ones who don't know it let me explain a bit. Metacritic is a better indicator of critical reception in my opinion. RT is about percentage of critics giving a thumbs up. A 6/10 is enough to be a thumbs up. But Metacritic is more stricter. It averages the score say 8/10 or 3/5 and makes it into percentage. 8/10 makes it 80 percent. 3/5 would make it 60 %. An average is taken with higher weight given to 'Top Critics'. And thus a final score is found. Getting a higher score there indicates a higher quality. A better indicator then RT due to obvious reasons.

    85 in Metacrtic for TLJ. Just for the sake of comparison i am bringing up a few scores. Wonder Woman 76. Avengers 69. Logan 85. Dark Knight 82. Shape of Water 86. The Post 83. Phantom Thread 90. Get Out 84. Lady Bird 94. Moonlight 99. There Will Be Blood 93. No Country For Old Man 91. Skyfall 81. Transformers The Last Knight 27. Suicide Squad 40.

    I gave a selection of films in past few years going back to almost a decade. TLJ is critically acclaimed with stellar scores and did great business in box office. Throw in four Academy nominations (which granted aren't the big ones) for a studio what else would a studio want? Maybe a few hundred million dollars more. But 1.3 billion is all the money in the world. A top ten worldwide gross can never be a disappointment. Its paradoxical.

    Yet i wish next film be such that fans don't fight like this. It has become normal now but it is weird that a film with critical scores comparable to oscar nominees of the year, even more then some is being attacked like this.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-28-2018 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    What is your opinion in regards to Disney removing "Star Wars" from the Han Solo movie when it's released in China? I guess TLJ did so poorly they want to distance this next movie from it. I know China is a factor major factor when blockbusters are produced. I wonder what this move says about the direction Star Wars is going.
    It's kind of funny they're naming it "Ranger Solo". I seem to recall another Disney movie that didn't do great with a similar title....
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  12. #42
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    I think STAR WARS struggles with the Chinese audience because it is, paradoxically, both too familiar and too foreign: the stuff about the lore of the Force and the Jedi and Sith is too much like China's own wuxia fiction and cinema, while all the space/sci-fi stuff is too far removed from anything that has been popular in China.

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  13. #43
    A Gentle Woman Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Episode 9 prediction thread. Never thought of myself being here. I used to be a SW fan due to the OT. But i was not really passionate about it. But three back to back films which i loved and especially after TLJ i am simply waiting for 2019. I had this kind of excitement a few times before. They also had a couple of good films followed by a film which i loved a lot when they came out, making me wait for the next one. Spider-man 3, Dark Knight Rises, Order of The Phoenix. And X-Men Days of Future Past. ( Which granted had only First Class. I did not love the first X-Men films. But First Class is actually my second favorite X-Men film after Logan).

    One of the best things i liked about TLJ was how unpredictable it was. That first scene where Luke tosses away the light saber was jaw dropping. It caught me completely by surprise. The next one won't be that surprising. I hope it has some kind of surprises and not very predictable.

    I think Rey would rebuild that light saber. The one belonging to Luke and to his father before him. She had the pieces. If she does nothing with that why show it? She happens to have a cool staff. I can see her using the two parts and making that staff a double ended light saber. It would be a callback to Darth Maul. That light saber battle is perhaps the only universally beloved part of that film. I can see them doing that.

    If rumors are to be believed (unless someone confirms it for me. I thought it was by someone at Reddit which is not reliable) Episode 9 will be tying up all three trilogies. Its a good idea to to have call backs to the one good thing of Phantom Menace.

    And can it be done? Can a broken light saber be repaired? Can it be divided into two and be made a double ended light saber as i am thinking?
    What will happen is that Rey will either kill Ren, or he'll 'die' like Phasma in TLJ. The rebels will land and they will be joined by others and they'll take down TFO. Finn and Rose will get married. Rey will start an orphanage where she trains Jedi.

    Someone on another thread said that Snoke took over Ren's mind. But i don't think we'll get that lucky. I tend to like 'chessmaster' villains like Snoke. Snoke was more in concert with a real life villain (he just wants to rule the world). He's not an angry man child like Ren.

    I would like to see more of the unpredictability in IX. But it all depends on whether they want to go for good storytelling or just appeal to a mass audiences and turn the film into a live action video game.
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    What will happen is that Rey will either kill Ren, or he'll 'die' like Phasma in TLJ. The rebels will land and they will be joined by others and they'll take down TFO. Finn and Rose will get married. Rey will start an orphanage where she trains Jedi.

    Someone on another thread said that Snoke took over Ren's mind. But i don't think we'll get that lucky. I tend to like 'chessmaster' villains like Snoke. Snoke was more in concert with a real life villain (he just wants to rule the world). He's not an angry man child like Ren.

    I would like to see more of the unpredictability in IX. But it all depends on whether they want to go for good storytelling or just appeal to a mass audiences and turn the film into a live action video game.
    How careless of me? There is a separate thread for light saber of Luke. This one is supposed to be about predictions for the film in general.

    I think Ren will die in Episode IX. He is the ultimate villain here after finishing off Snoke. Some fans are hoping that Kylo would be redeemed. I don't think so. The film pretty much made it clear that Kylo is far from being redeemed. He has gone too far. Unless JJ Abrams tries to change it. Its possible but i won't bet on it. Kylo is pretty much the main villain for this trilogy. There has to be a sense of ending with Episode IX. And Kylo continuing to menace the galaxy is hardly an ending for the trilogy.

    While i prefer those kinds of villains who you called 'Chessmaster like' myself, i love Kylo very much as a villain. Its known that giving in to anger, hate and such lower urges is the way to the Dark Side. ESB and ROTJ showed that. With ROTJ showing Luke being tempted to give in to his anger and hatred to turn him into the Dark Side. Here is a villain who is perfectly suited to be influenced by the Dark side of the Force. An angry young man lashing out in anger. Having said that i think we are going to see a more calmer and composed Kylo retaining some of that hotheadedness. Till now he was more conflicted. And now he is free from that conflict as he has become the Supreme Leader himself.

    I won't bet on Finn and Rose being married. I have heard that after this trilogy ends they plan to make more films based on these characters. Say Rey: A Star Wars story. I am sure they will consider making a film on Finn. They may make more Episodes. 10,11 and so on which would be like a new story after there is an ending in Episode 9. So, marriage looks a bit far-fetched to me even though possible. Rey starting a new Jedi Academy seems to be the plan. If not in Episode IX in future stories. The final shot with broom boy seems to suggest that.

    Theoretically its possible to be good and be crowd pleasing at the same time. I would suggest that TLJ appealed to mass audiences regardless of what the fans who disliked TLJ say. No film can earn 1.3 billion worldwide without being crowd pleasing. Even Star Wars. Pre-existing fandom and cultural impact is far from enough to reach that number. Or else, Batman v Superman would have easily crossed a billion after that monstrous opening weekend. The worldwide opening weekend of Batman v Superman was 434 million dollars. Close to 450 million of TLJ. Even though stateside the difference was more. 166 million for BvS and 220 for TLJ. Seems logical as some say that Star Wars is like a religion in North America. Outside of that it is like any other franchise albeit a more successful one.

    I doubt the next one would be as unpredictable as this one. Or as wonderful as this one. Let us hope that Episode IX will still be good enough. And not terrible. That is also a possibility.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 01-28-2018 at 11:04 PM.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    How careless of me? There is a separate thread for light saber of Luke. This one is supposed to be about predictions for the film in general.

    I think Ren will die in Episode IX. He is the ultimate villain here after finishing off Snoke. Some fans are hoping that Kylo would be redeemed. I don't think so. The film pretty much made it clear that Kylo is far from being redeemed. He has gone too far. Unless JJ Abrams tries to change it. Its possible but i won't bet on it. Kylo is pretty much the main villain for this trilogy. There has to be a sense of ending with Episode IX. And Kylo continuing to menace the galaxy is hardly an ending for the trilogy.

    While i prefer those kinds of villains who you called 'Chessmaster like' myself, i love Kylo very much as a villain. Its known that giving in to anger, hate and such lower urges is the way to the Dark Side. ESB and ROTJ showed that. With ROTJ showing Luke being tempted to give in to his anger and hatred to turn him into the Dark Side. Here is a villain who is perfectly suited to be influenced by the Dark side of the Force. An angry young man lashing out in anger. Having said that i think we are going to see a more calmer and composed Kylo retaining some of that hotheadedness. Till now he was more conflicted. And now he is free from that conflict as he has become the Supreme Leader himself.
    I agree overall, but I know a lot of online fans disagree and think that the movies show otherwise. I guess it goes to show how subjective art is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    I won't bet on Finn and Rose being married. I have heard that after this trilogy ends they plan to make more films based on these characters. Say Rey: A Star Wars story. I am sure they will consider making a film on Finn. They may make more Episodes. 10,11 and so on which would be like a new story after there is an ending in Episode 9. So, marriage looks a bit far-fetched to me even though possible. Rey starting a new Jedi Academy seems to be the plan. If not in Episode IX in future stories. The final shot with broom boy seems to suggest that.
    I did kinda recall Kathleen Kennedy going on record that they'd like to use the heroes in future movies (Kylo Ren was not included, for what it's worth), but didn't Daisy Ridley say that Episode 9 would be her last movie? I do understand she could change her mind (or it could be that Rey isn't supposed to survive Episode 9, will withdraw from public life, be recast, whatever) and it wouldn't prevent other characters from coming back, but that doesn't seem to fit with the idea of further sequels. (Another possibility is that the tie-ins could continue the sequel trilogy character's stories, like Legends did for the post-ROTJ eras.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Theoretically its possible to be good and be crowd pleasing at the same time. I would suggest that TLJ appealed to mass audiences regardless of what the fans who disliked TLJ say. No film can earn 1.3 billion worldwide without being crowd pleasing. Even Star Wars. Pre-existing fandom and cultural impact is far from enough to reach that number. Or else, Batman v Superman would have easily crossed a billion after that monstrous opening weekend. The worldwide opening weekend of Batman v Superman was 434 million dollars. Close to 450 million of TLJ. Even though stateside the difference was more. 166 million for BvS and 220 for TLJ. Seems logical as some say that Star Wars is like a religion in North America. Outside of that it is like any other franchise albeit a more successful one.
    I do think the "TLJ failed" arguments aren't fitting the facts very well, even if TLJ didn't over-perform like TFA did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    I doubt the next one would be as unpredictable as this one. Or as wonderful as this one. Let us hope that Episode IX will still be good enough. And not terrible. That is also a possibility.
    Agreed.
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