View Poll Results: Which of the following "fundamentals" cannot be altered at all in your opinion?

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  • Superman's costume must always have trunks, no mask and no gloves.

    35 33.02%
  • Superman must always end up with Lois Lane. He can romance other women but Lois is endgame.

    69 65.09%
  • Superman's workplace is the Planet and he is a journalist. He cannot, say, be a doctor instead.

    72 67.92%
  • Kryptonians must remain extinct save for a few. Things such as New Krypton are temporary at best.

    69 65.09%
  • Superman's powerset is permanent and mostly immutable. He cannot, say, develop psychic powers.

    54 50.94%
  • Superman's home is ultimately Metropolis. He cannot, say, leave Metropolis and go live in Sydney.

    73 68.87%
  • Superman must have a secret identity. He can't permanently ditch it and openly live as Superman.

    81 76.42%
  • Lex Luthor must always be Superman's arch-enemy. He cannot be permanently redeemed.

    45 42.45%
  • The Kents must stay alive or at least one of them must live.

    23 21.70%
  • The Daily Planet crew is Superman's core supporting cast, they cannot be replaced or sidelined.

    65 61.32%
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  1. #46
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    From the posts I've read here and catching some of my wife's Friends binge, I started thinking and I do now have to agree that ending up with Lois is a really strong one. I think the trick to it is that you have an extreme amount of leg room to work with before they get together and potentially time after her normal life passes and his super life goes on. But you can't really escape Lois and Clark.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member The Learner's Avatar
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    Voted the following:

    * Superman must always end up with Lois Lane. He can romance other women but Lois is endgame.

    * Superman's workplace is the Planet and he is a journalist. He cannot, say, be a doctor instead.

    * Kryptonians must remain extinct save for a few. Things such as New Krypton are temporary at best.

    * Superman's home is ultimately Metropolis. He cannot, say, leave Metropolis and go live in Sydney.

    * Superman must have a secret identity. He can't permanently ditch it and openly live as Superman.

    * Lex Luthor must always be Superman's arch-enemy. He cannot be permanently redeemed.

    * The Daily Planet crew is Superman's core supporting cast, they cannot be replaced or sidelined.

  3. #48
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    It's really a question of where we should be in time when we read a Superman story.

    If the sweet spot is when he's still on the Kent farm, then from that point we look with expectation to the future and with knowledge of the past. We know he came from Krypton, which was destroyed and we expect he will one day be a reporter and the champion of Metropolis. But what we expect isn't nailed down--it just seems a far off goal.

    If the sweet spot is when he's married with a kid: We know that he came to Earth, grew up in Smallville, had a career as a reporter, was a champion, got married, had a kid. But what do we expect? Well, we expect his kid will grow up and replace him. And we expect that Lois is going to die and Superman might give up his mission and leave Earth.

    What we expect is distinct from what we know. From a story telling perspective, the writers can play with expectations and hold off ever paying them off. But if it's something we already know, then it's not in play.

    And if the sweet spot is Superman married, then Lois marrying him is no longer an expectation, it's what we know. The expectation has to be something else like death or divorce. Lois is no longer the outcome we expect--the outcome is shifted ahead in time to some other development.

    That's why I prefer the sweet spot as Superman unmarried, a champion of Metropolis and a reporter. We know he came to Earth from Krypton and grew up in Smallville. But we only expect and don't know for sure that Superman is going to end up with Lois in some fashion. And just how that will shake out is unclear.

    Being modern people they don't have to marry to consummate their love and it's not sure if Lois will marry Clark or marry Superman. And we should expect the unexpected, like Lois dying without ever marrying or Superman finding someone else he loves more. Or Superman's philosophical outlook graduating to a higher plane of understanding where things like romantic love no longer have importance for him and he's focused on some higher ideal of universal kinship and compassion.

  4. #49
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I almost went with "none of the above" but I do think 3 of those things are important.

    Krypton being dead and Kryptonians largely being extinct, except for the occasional surfacing of a fellow survivor. The last refugee of a doomed world, and all that.

    Superman having a secret, private, identity. He needs to go somewhere when he's not Superman, and the drama of hiding himself in plain sight is pretty important to who he is as a character. "Clark Kent", or whatever he is calling himself, is how he filters the human experience- and part of him prefers the anonymity.

    Lois Lane as a pivotal figure in his life and his ultimate love interest. She can be a journalist without him being one. Superman/Clark Kent can have any "job" as long as it is vague enough in duties and hours worked (so he can bail out the proverbial storage closet window at any time). Lois Lane needs to be present in the narrative as a large factor in his life. She's been there since #1, 1938.

    That's about it. There's a few things not listed- primary colors for a primary kinda guy, the name "Clark Kent" (not the journalist job though, that's not important)...that's about it.

    The farm, the Planet, Metropolis, Lex Luthor, the Kents, Smallville- he can go without all of that.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-24-2018 at 04:55 PM.

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member Lairston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

    I didn't vote for 10, but in retrospect I did that while counting Lois, Jimmy and Perry as his core not only within but OUTSIDE the Planet as well. If that core was actually what was meant, I'd have voted for it.

    For those I didn't vote for, he can't have gloves or a mask, but he can be without trunks. Lois doesn't always have to be the "endgame" as Superman doesn't even necessarily need a romantic endgame period. There are more than one viable way to play their dynamic, the only imperative is that have A dynamic. And its far from an imperative that at least one Kent parent remains alive. They are better off dead in my opinion but all scenarios can be workable, not one absolutely MUST be.
    No. You're completely wrong.

    1 4 5 6 7 8 10

    (In reality, I am surprised at how close our choices are minus my refusal to negotiate the trunks.)

  6. #51
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    Costume: Not a big fan of the new 52 and rebirth variants, but at the end of the day the trunks are negotiable as is pretty much everything that isn't the "S" or basic color scheme. The cover for Action #1000 didn't really do much for me making me realize the trunks weren't the real deal breaker I'd have thought.

    Soulmate: Lois is the obvious choice and preferred over any newcomer, but coming from the Silver/Bronze era I could easily have accepted Superman marrying Lana, Lori Lemaris, Sally Selwyn ... Not as big a fan of Diana but if it happened I could adjust.

    Job: While technically Superman could have any of a dozen jobs out of costume and I am not against seeing Clark temporarily trying out other professions- at the end of the day he is a journalist. The job gives him enough freedom to come and go when needed, it lets him investigate things covertly (out of costume) without people wondering why a bus driver/pharmacist/whatever would be involved. and it lets him interact with people on the street while out of costume.

    Kryptonian survivors: I prefer Kal-El to be pretty unique, but could care less why he is one-of-a-kind or just exceedingly rare. He can be the only survivor of the planet or one of a handful (Kara, the Zoners). He can be the only one on Earth (New Krypton exists but doesn't interact regularly with most of the DCU for reasons). As long as at the end of the day we aren't tripping over Pseudo-Supermen I don't think it matters.

    Powers: I prefer a pretty stable set of powers which outside of flight are largely just human abilities turned up to 1 million (on a human scale of 1-10). I'm not even a fan of heat vision. But at the end of the day I also think the powers make the hero. If you are telling a Flash story outside of a specific one-off idea you don't have Barry, Wally, or Jay suddenly able to read minds, grow in size, or shapeshift. Flash powers are based on speed. In the same way Superman (and other Kryptonians) should have a defined relatively stable set of powers and anything that is added should be a well thought out consequence of that. If you want a telepathic Superman- use J'onn J'onnz for your story.

    Superman needs a home-base. Sure he technically could (and does) go anywhere he needs to, but it works better when we have a familiar set of characters and places to set stories. Since Metropolis already exists and is part of the lore I see no reason not to use it. You can write a perfectly Superman story with him based in a real world city or with him on other planets, it just seems like you are trying to hard at that point to be different just for the sake of difference.

    The secret identity is largely to me the whole point of Superman. Clark Kent is when used correctly the reader's portal into the character. It's the core of whether the character is a perfect flawless being or Joe Average with impressive powers. It's not when Superman is being heroic and saving the day that we see him fully, it is when he is walking in the crowd with glasses acting normal while his thoughts are anything but normal.

    Lex Luthor is Superman's millstone. Don't get me wrong he deserves a place in the Superman story just not the lofty one he is usually given. Lex is not essential to Superman. Of the many complaints I've seen about Man of Steel not one of them attacked the movie for leaving Lex out. The 1950's TV series went it's whole run without even a thinly veiled Luthor (and it's not like that was due to budget issues). I'd put Luthor in a box with Brainiac and Mxyzptlk (and toss Zod in the same box). Definite Superman villains but not characters we need to see every month (or even more than once every 12 arcs).

    I prefer live Kents only in Superboy stories, but the TV series managed to leave Ma in a nice limbo where we never saw her so they don't need to be dead. On the other hand I fear a living Martha would be too easily made into an Aunt May type existing just to add relative drama into otherwise decent stories (How can I defeat this threat while I'm worrying that Ma might lose the farm. So while you could do great Superman stories with both Kents involved, one dead or both dead, my choice is a nice funeral for the Kents before Clark moves to Metropolis.

    Since I already stated I prefer Clark as a journalist, it only follows that I want his supporting cast to include his co-workers. So of course I want the Planet Staff (Perry, Jimmy, and Lois) among his close friends and even others (Lombard, Cat Grant, Josh Coyle, Oscar Ashman, Ron Troupe) as recurring touchstones. In fact while I preferred the old World's Finest team- I'd prefer that Clark keep his superhero allies at a distance (as far as recurring supporting cast).

  7. #52
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    Because SUPERMAN 196 (May '67) was one of the first Superman comics I ever read, in my mind Lyrica LLoyd is the only woman that Clark loved beyond all others. It doesn't take long for him to fall totally in love with her after they meet and he reveals his secret identity to her and proposes marriage.

    He didn't do that with Lana, Sally or Lois. Lori Lemaris is the only one who comes close to that--since Clark also proposed marriage to her and she knew he was Superman (telepathy), but she dumped him for a merman. Still, because I read the story of Lyrica before I knew much about Superman's back story, I truly believed that Clark had to love her, much more than Lois Lane who he often treated with such coldness.

    Sure, sometimes Superman would take Lois to exotic locations for fancy dates, but other times it was like she didn't even exist. And in the letter columns there was a constant debate about whether Lois and Superman should end up together or whether she should dump the cad. After all, reading SUPERBOY and ADVENTURE COMICS, there was just as much evidence that Clark was in love with Lana Lang.

    I even remember that when the SMALLVILLE TV show was running, not everyone thought that Clark would end up with Lois. Some thought he should be with Lana, while many others believed Chloe Sullivan was the girl for him.

  8. #53
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I even remember that when the SMALLVILLE TV show was running, not everyone thought that Clark would end up with Lois. Some thought he should be with Lana, while many others believed Chloe Sullivan was the girl for him.
    I think Chloe Sullivan was always destined to live in the friend zone. And Lana ended up being more hated by the fans than Lex Luthor. So Clark sort of ended up with Lois by default,
    even if that was the way it was meant to be.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Because SUPERMAN 196 (May '67) was one of the first Superman comics I ever read, in my mind Lyrica LLoyd is the only woman that Clark loved beyond all others. It doesn't take long for him to fall totally in love with her after they meet and he reveals his secret identity to her and proposes marriage.

    He didn't do that with Lana, Sally or Lois. Lori Lemaris is the only one who comes close to that--since Clark also proposed marriage to her and she knew he was Superman (telepathy), but she dumped him for a merman. Still, because I read the story of Lyrica before I knew much about Superman's back story, I truly believed that Clark had to love her, much more than Lois Lane who he often treated with such coldness.

    Sure, sometimes Superman would take Lois to exotic locations for fancy dates, but other times it was like she didn't even exist. And in the letter columns there was a constant debate about whether Lois and Superman should end up together or whether she should dump the cad. After all, reading SUPERBOY and ADVENTURE COMICS, there was just as much evidence that Clark was in love with Lana Lang.
    I can see all of that. Superman with Lois works based on close to 80+ years of overall history and the development of that relationship in each new incarnation. But while I doubt JMS planned on her as the long term endgame- in the Earth One series I'd put Clark's neighbor/girlfriend ahead of Lois for a love interest in that "universe". So if they reboot the DCEU at some point I would have no objection to them introducing a non-Lois love interest for the run of the films ... as long as they make this new character distinct from Lois so it isn't just say "Lois as a cop with a different name". If by some chance Jim Kelly had input I'd love to see Lyrica LLoyd as that love interest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I even remember that when the SMALLVILLE TV show was running, not everyone thought that Clark would end up with Lois. Some thought he should be with Lana, while many others believed Chloe Sullivan was the girl for him.
    To me the big drawback to Smallville was the producers deciding from the get-go that Lois was the endgame. Not that the show would introduce Lois as a character during its run, necessarily. But to them it was set in stone that just as Clark would one day be Superman, any relationship with Lana (or Chloe or anyone else) was doomed before it started since Superman winds up with Lois. I'd have rather they had taken the idea of parallel universes and started out with the idea that while we will play in the Superman/DC sandbox our endgame isn't required to be the current DCU so we can fade out on Clark-Lana in the last episode and leave it to the fans to decide themselves whether Lois will ever happen. Of course that was before the whole (Henry) James Olsen bit where they were forced to hew closer to DC continuity.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Trunks are negotiable, but no masks or gloves.

    Lois is the endgame. Period. In many ways, Lois and Clark are the First Couple of DC Comics. As he grew up in Smallville, he dated Lana a bit, but ended up just as friends. But Lois through and through.

    Clark does his social commentary through journalism. And does what he can to help people because of his interactions through working with the Daily Planet. Him being another profession would take that away. If he jumped around a little, trying to find the right job, that would be fine, so long as being a journalist was the end game.

    Clark, Kara, and Zod/Phantom Zone Kryptonians are all that should be around. Else it would really take away from a lot of the narrative that surrounds Superman and, by extension, Supergirl.

    Please no powers of the week thing like what happened in the Silver Age. I draw the line at the Solar Flare (which has a distinct similarity to an exact same named move from another series, but I'll leave it there).

    Keep it Metropolis. I don't mind him visiting other cities, particularly to help out other heroes/friends, but Metropolis is HIS city, much like Gotham is Batman's.

    Keep the secret identity, because he grew up as Clark Kent, its a part of who he is and gives him that sense of normalcy. Plus, it would be a little weird to see a guy in blue tights and red cape sit down at a desk at the Daily Planet to write up a story.

    I can go either way on Lex, in all honesty. So long as he keeps his pompousness, intelligence, and arrogance, I'm good with him.

    I would LIKE the Kents to be alive, but I guess them being dead can work. Maybe one of them still alive? Please?

    Keep the Daily Planet cast.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'd actually go as far as to say "endgame" should be the consistent dance of 'will they won't they" with Lois and Clark. Its so much superior to them actually being married, in my eyes. I just gave Earth One a read through again (better than it was the first time around), and although they barely interact in part one, it parts two and three their dynamic is so much more engaging and fun than anything going on with them in the comics right now. They were the Moonlighting characters before Moonlighting. The dynamic is so muted and blasé now. DC really blew it there in the New 52, not re-establishing that in earnest and instead mandating she be sidelined consistently.

    Essentially the way All-Star did it, although in my ideal continuity she figures out who he is very early into his career.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-25-2018 at 11:58 AM.
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  12. #57
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    Powers of the week? Excluding the movies, the only time I know when Superman's complement of powers went through rapid change was in his early days, in the 1930s and 1940s. By the 1960s, the powers were nailed down--to the extent that readers would send in letters to complain if stories violated any established rules. Although, of course, red Kryptonite could cause tempoary changes to Superman's powers.

    All the original powers were simply expansions on human abilities. You could probably go around the world and find people who could do nearly as much as Superman--run real fast, lift up very heavy objects, withstand punishment to their bodies, do the broad jump or the high jump. The first addional power, I think, was Superman's ability to change his face by manipulating the muscles in his face. But this is also something that people could nearly do--some people are "rubber faced" and can take on a completely different appearance with some effort.

    Hypnotism was another power that Superman flirted with and this is something that is common enough on Earth, too. As long as Superman just had really good eyesight, that was also an extension of normal human abilities. It's only when he does things with his eyes that are nothing like what humans can do, like projecting rays from his eyes, that Superman is no longer a super man, but something else. And then he displays anti-gravity abilites--sustained flight--not just springing into the air for long periods of time and not even being limited by Newtonian physics. That's when Superman starts to become god-like rather than superhuman.

  13. #58
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Re-checking the score...

    Damn, Lex is still ranking below Lois in his importance. That is truly curious. Several people have mentioned that the first option is a bit loaded by lumping no mask and no gloves in with no trunks and I agree. I'd change it but I can't really see an option as to how. Superman's secret identity is at the top, much as I expected.

    To give my two cents on the romance issue, I believe Lois Lane's importance to the Superman mythos is heavily overblown. Putting aside the fact that she has remained virtually static as a character aside from trivial additions like army brat with military training (which also ended up killing one of the most endearing traits of Golden Age Lois and other characters like her, which is that she's outmatched in virtually every dangerous situation she's in, from standard crooks to trained assassins, yet still does daring stuff despite the possibility that she could be very easily killed at any moment), keeping fairly true to the Torchy Blane archetype which Jerry Siegel ripped off for her character, I simply struggle to see her usefulness to the Superman mythos beyond being Superman's love interest. Jimmy is the best friend. Perry is the boss. Lombard is the rival. Lois, if we take away Superman's object of affection angle is...the bitchy coworker? Or, once she moves past that phase, just a coworker?

    Basically, I'm of the opinion that Superman and Lois seem to be a "must" more so because Lois is fundamentally pointless as a character if she's not Superman's squeeze and not because it is actually an indispensable dynamic. Ergo, it is done more for the benefit of Lois' character than that of Superman himself and his mythos. It also kind of underlines how flat Lois is as a character and how DC is never going to evolve her in a significant manner as a character unless she's no longer Superman's one true love and needs to find another niche. I can't even use tradition as a defense here because Siegel and Shuster themselves created other women as Superman's great loves.

    So, I definitely question whether Lois is important as a fundamental aspect of the Superman story. I'd argue she's not and the focus on her as one is harmful to both her and Superman.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    To give my two cents on the romance issue, I believe Lois Lane's importance to the Superman mythos is heavily overblown. Putting aside the fact that she has remained virtually static as a character aside from trivial additions like army brat with military training (which also ended up killing one of the most endearing traits of Golden Age Lois and other characters like her, which is that she's outmatched in virtually every dangerous situation she's in, from standard crooks to trained assassins, yet still does daring stuff despite the possibility that she could be very easily killed at any moment),
    The Golden Age is a long time ago and what is found endearing then is not now. I don’t get why this is so difficult to understand.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    keeping fairly true to the Torchy Blane archetype which Jerry Siegel ripped off for her character, I simply struggle to see her usefulness to the Superman mythos beyond being Superman's love interest. Jimmy is the best friend. Perry is the boss. Lombard is the rival. Lois, if we take away Superman's object of affection angle is...the bitchy coworker? Or, once she moves past that phase, just a coworker?
    Remove these people’s relationships with Clark and you have the same argument. Hell in Jimmy’s case, his role as Clark’s best friend has been deimphasized for decades and does anyone even give a crap about Lombard and his antics any more?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    Basically, I'm of the opinion that Superman and Lois seem to be a "must" more so because Lois is fundamentally pointless as a character if she's not Superman's squeeze and not because it is actually an indispensable dynamic. Ergo, it is done more for the benefit of Lois' character than that of Superman himself and his mythos. It also kind of underlines how flat Lois is as a character and how DC is never going to evolve her in a significant manner as a character unless she's no longer Superman's one true love and needs to find another niche. I can't even use tradition as a defense here because Siegel and Shuster themselves created other women as Superman's great loves.
    Siegel and Shuster also wanted Lois to end up with Clark and based her on Siegel’s wife.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    Re-checking the score...

    Damn, Lex is still ranking below Lois in his importance. That is truly curious. Several people have mentioned that the first option is a bit loaded by lumping no mask and no gloves in with no trunks and I agree. I'd change it but I can't really see an option as to how. Superman's secret identity is at the top, much as I expected.

    To give my two cents on the romance issue, I believe Lois Lane's importance to the Superman mythos is heavily overblown. Putting aside the fact that she has remained virtually static as a character aside from trivial additions like army brat with military training (which also ended up killing one of the most endearing traits of Golden Age Lois and other characters like her, which is that she's outmatched in virtually every dangerous situation she's in, from standard crooks to trained assassins, yet still does daring stuff despite the possibility that she could be very easily killed at any moment), keeping fairly true to the Torchy Blane archetype which Jerry Siegel ripped off for her character, I simply struggle to see her usefulness to the Superman mythos beyond being Superman's love interest. Jimmy is the best friend. Perry is the boss. Lombard is the rival. Lois, if we take away Superman's object of affection angle is...the bitchy coworker? Or, once she moves past that phase, just a coworker?

    Basically, I'm of the opinion that Superman and Lois seem to be a "must" more so because Lois is fundamentally pointless as a character if she's not Superman's squeeze and not because it is actually an indispensable dynamic. Ergo, it is done more for the benefit of Lois' character than that of Superman himself and his mythos. It also kind of underlines how flat Lois is as a character and how DC is never going to evolve her in a significant manner as a character unless she's no longer Superman's one true love and needs to find another niche. I can't even use tradition as a defense here because Siegel and Shuster themselves created other women as Superman's great loves.

    So, I definitely question whether Lois is important as a fundamental aspect of the Superman story. I'd argue she's not and the focus on her as one is harmful to both her and Superman.
    Your opinion of Lois definitely depends on your approach to the character. For me, both characters are made stronger by being together. When written well, they compliment (as well as contrast) each other very well, and add a different kind of aspiration to the character along with his altruistic nature.

    And as others have stated, Lois was seemingly the endgame for Siegel and Shuster, too. So there is some precedent in that.
    Last edited by JAK; 11-10-2018 at 07:57 AM.
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