Superman's Fundamentals: A Discussion

[Jon Clark]

Those are also just still very extreme. If you say "making Mxyzptlk a Russian exchange student," even though we're talking about a supporting character who isn't held to the same standard in marketing or fandom, that's not a type of change supported by the available options in the least. I get it is what that means is simply that there are limits to these things, but it's the unchanging principles that don't have a likelihood of tampering. You can't fairly expect Mxy to be a Russian exchange student by any upcoming revision, but you can expect Superman to do any single one of those things in the poll, as he has pulled off each one.

The worst I could even say is that the ones I voted for will probably revert back to status quo time and again, but they can be frequently altered anyway.

I can't expect Myx to be a Russian exchange student mainly because no one really became attached to that approach. If the Smallville showrunners had run with the idea and used the character as frequently as hey did say Brainiac, there wouls be a generstion of CW fans that would swear the "5th dimensional imp" was just one interpretation.

I'm pretty sure that prior to 1986 the sentence "Superman is what I can do, Clark Kent is who I am" would have seemed at odds with Superman's iconic nature. But 30 years on it's just a different take. And I'm not sure ANY of the things in that list is any more likely to be held as iconic if someone at DC decides they want to go in a different direction.

Secret ID's are a vanishing concept. How many threads have we had here about "just a pair of glasses" or "Lois is such a good reporter that she can't ever be shown to be fooled"? Is it really that hard to picture DC phasing out the Planet and Clark out of costume to focus more on his battles? Maybe the Planet would be kept around for Lois but even then it would be little more than window dressing as far as Superman is concerned.

[stargazer01]

I think the secret identity still works BUT not with Lois who works with Clark and is very close to Superman unlike most other people.

She should be able to realize much sooner that Clark is Superman, IMO, and even help him with keeping his secret ID. The way Man of Steel film did it was really good. The way The Death of Superman did it was, IMO, pretty contrived because she was already very close to Clark and he didn't even try to look different to Superman. But I didn't mind it because it's animation... Live action is much different.

[Jon Clark]

I think the secret identity still works BUT not with Lois who works with Clark and is very close to Superman unlike most other people.

She should be able to realize much sooner that Clark is Superman, IMO, and even help him with keeping his secret ID. The way Man of Steel film did it was really good. The way The Death of Superman did it was, IMO, pretty contrived because she was already very close to Clark and he didn't even try to look different to Superman. But I didn't mind it because it's animation... Live action is much different.

Perfect illustration of my point. Lois in on the secret from the beginning is a totally different take from the way the character dynamics were created. A different dynamic might be better or worse, but the one thing it is not is iconic Superman

[Kuwagaton]

I can't expect Myx to be a Russian exchange student mainly because no one really became attached to that approach. If the Smallville showrunners had run with the idea and used the character as frequently as hey did say Brainiac, there wouls be a generstion of CW fans that would swear the "5th dimensional imp" was just one interpretation.

What I mean is that sort of extreme wouldn't even make it to CW or whoever, because it's rather far out and distracting. Having Clark as the identity isn't as great a disconnect when "who he really is" had been an explored question for years before it and more or less had been developed by the "secret ID" concept from the very beginning.

[Jon Clark]

What I mean is that sort of extreme wouldn't even make it to CW or whoever, because it's rather far out and distracting. Having Clark as the identity isn't as great a disconnect when "who he really is" had been an explored question for years before it and more or less had been developed by the "secret ID" concept from the very beginning.

You are aware that I took the Mxy example from Smallville, right? It was an actual thing.

[Jim Kelly]

I could see it going in the direction where he's Superman all the time, but in the past it's often gone the other way where he's not Superman very much and he's mostly Clark Kent all the time. In SMALLVILLE, he was always Clark Kent and in other live action TV shows and movies, it's often the case that he spends more time as Clark than as Superman, because they save the special effects heavy scenes for key parts of the plot. But even in the comic strips, he would often be Clark Kent for a heck of a lot of the story.

It goes with what mood the public is in--and this becomes more prevalent in mass market versions of Superman. If we're in a period where people are comfortable with super-heroes and over the top action, then he can be Superman a lot of the time. But if we're in a period when the public finds super-heroes a little too ridiculous, then he's more likely to be Clark Kent most of the time.

And looking at comic book characters in general this holds true. Sometimes we're in phases where Wonder Woman, Captain America or Starman are in street clothes all the time and not doing the traditional super-hero bit. And other times we're in phases where even Archie, the Blackhawks and Dracula will try out the super-hero costumes thing.

[Kuwagaton]

You are aware that I took the Mxy example from Smallville, right? It was an actual thing.

I didn't, sorry. What's that thing called where you deliberately avoid something and then you hear about things that tell you to stay away.

[Jon Clark]

I didn't, sorry. What's that thing called where you deliberately avoid something and then you hear about things that tell you to stay away.

Better sense then I have?

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Nevermind...

[Killerbee911]

I don't they are any fundamentals other than

-survivor of Krypton exploding

-Raised by the Kents to be a good man

-Being on Earth gave him an amazing powers which he uses to help people

For long time fan you can only shift around couple of elements before it becomes a little too different and fandoms are creatures of habit so big changes seem important. But Supergirl tv show literally proves you can change ot most of elements Superman and have enjoyable experience because if it you look at Supergirl until now has been the "Superman role" in Arrowverse. You can tell a good superman story without everything in the poll I mean Supergirl is basically doing it right now could swap out Kara for Clark and keep everything in tact and Superman fans wouldn't be that upset. Think about it

[stargazer01]

I don't they are any fundamentals other than

-survivor of Krypton exploding

-Raised by the Kents to be a good man

-Being on Earth gave him an amazing powers which he uses to help people

For long time fan you can only shift around couple of elements before it becomes a little too different and fandoms are creatures of habit so big changes seem important. But Supergirl tv show literally proves you can change ot most of elements Superman and have enjoyable experience because if it you look at Supergirl until now has been the "Superman role" in Arrowverse. You can tell a good superman story without everything in the poll I mean Supergirl is basically doing it right now could swap out Kara for Clark and keep everything in tact and Superman fans wouldn't be that upset. Think about it

sorry but your comparison doesn't work because Supergirl is not Superman. People accept that she can live in another city and have other supporting characters because her story isn't iconic or nearly as established like Superman/Clark Kent's. For her, the only important thing is that she is Superman's cousin and that she arrived after he did.

[Jim Kelly]

I think these are supposed to be fundamentals not fundamentals.

[Yoda]

Secret ID's are a vanishing concept. How many threads have we had here about "just a pair of glasses" or "Lois is such a good reporter that she can't ever be shown to be fooled"? Is it really that hard to picture DC phasing out the Planet and Clark out of costume to focus more on his battles? Maybe the Planet would be kept around for Lois but even then it would be little more than window dressing as far as Superman is concerned.

Perfect illustration of my point. Lois in on the secret from the beginning is a totally different take from the way the character dynamics were created. A different dynamic might be better or worse, but the one thing it is not is iconic Superman

THere's a difference between building off the fundamentals and throwing them out entirely. Lois finding out the secret identity on her own builds off the fundamental dynamic and retains a lot of the same characteristics. I mean we saw what was essentially a modern take on the Silver Age dynamic in the New 52 story where Clark allowed Parasite to suck Lois's memory of him away. And they also more or less tossed out the Daily Planet, Lois Lane, and the Clark Kent identity. The Parasite thing was creepy and gross as hell. And the rest didn't really work and tanked the book entirely.

A modern take on the fundamental relationship, that Lois works out his secret identity and helps him keep it, updates the fundamentals (Lois, Clark, Secret Identity) without breaking them (i.e. no secret identity). And Superman isn't Superman without Clark Kent and the Daily Planet in some fashion. He's generic strong hero.

And you could change these characteristics for a storyline or even a run of the comic books. But the fundamentals of the character in the general public consciousness are Krypton destroyed. Raised on a farm on earth. Flys, has super strength, and heat vision. Superman with the s-shield, Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, reporter at the Daily Planet. You can ask random people on the street what the Daily Planet is and they'll know without ever reading a comic book. That is a fundamental part of the character's story.

[stargazer01]

THere's a difference between building off the fundamentals and throwing them out entirely. Lois finding out the secret identity on her own builds off the fundamental dynamic and retains a lot of the same characteristics. I mean we saw what was essentially a modern take on the Silver Age dynamic in the New 52 story where Clark allowed Parasite to suck Lois's memory of him away. And they also more or less tossed out the Daily Planet, Lois Lane, and the Clark Kent identity. The Parasite thing was creepy and gross as hell. And the rest didn't really work and tanked the book entirely.

A modern take on the fundamental relationship, that Lois works out his secret identity and helps him keep it, updates the fundamentals (Lois, Clark, Secret Identity) without breaking them (i.e. no secret identity). And Superman isn't Superman without Clark Kent and the Daily Planet in some fashion. He's generic strong hero.

And you could change these characteristics for a storyline or even a run of the comic books. But the fundamentals of the character in the general public consciousness are Krypton destroyed. Raised on a farm on earth. Flys, has super strength, and heat vision. Superman with the s-shield, Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, reporter at the Daily Planet. You can ask random people on the street what the Daily Planet is and they'll know without ever reading a comic book. That is a fundamental part of the character's story.

I agree with all this. A lot of times when they sell Superman merch, there is the Daily Planet building in the background. It's an iconic part of the S mythos because Clark Kent is a reporter and works in the same place as Lois Lane intrepid reporter.

The Clark Kent persona is also important because Clark needs a life outside of being a superhero. He needs to work to earn a living, and as Superman that is kind of hard let's face it. His Kent persona also allows him to be a regular citizen and to protect those he loves from his enemies. Come on, the shirt rip is super iconic. We would lose that if he was always Superman.

[Yoda]

Come on, the shirt rip is super iconic. We would lose that if he was always Superman.

Exactly! Taking off the glasses and opening the shirt is one of the most iconic images in pop culture. That represents Superman. The Daily Planet Globe is "Superman" to the general public. Lois Lane is "Superman's Girlfriend" to the general public. These are the fundamental elements of the character. You can tweak, modernize, or build off them, but without them you don't have "Superman" you have generic superhero.