Apparently a Man of Steel 2 announcement is coming soon

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

It's called team work. The point in MoS was that Superman is not the only hero in this world.

It's called militarism, which also plays into the Americanism the movie goes with.

Everyone on Earth that helped Superman stop Zod and the other Kryptonians was in some way associated with the US military, including Lois Lane.

[Agent Z]

It's called militarism, which also plays into the Americanism the movie goes with.

Everyone on Earth that helped Superman stop Zod and the other Kryptonians was in some way associated with the US military, including Lois Lane.

Yeah because it was an American city Zod attacked.

I don't hear this complaints when most superheroes are entirely or primarily consisted of Americans.

[GreatKungLao]

It's called militarism, which also plays into the Americanism the movie goes with.

Everyone on Earth that helped Superman stop Zod and the other Kryptonians was in some way associated with the US military, including Lois Lane.

At least when Zod actually made an appearance, the movie established that it was addressed to an entire planet in every language possible, unlike many other movies make alien invasion look like they happen in USA only and it is considered an entire world. The actual attack though? It happened in USA, so the military to be involved is nothing less but logical.

I'm not even talking about Batman v. Superman, where Superman is basically a plot device.

I think if people stop seeing BvS as Superman's solo sequel, they would realize that BvS was a world building movie, where Superman is literally a single person who causes everything that happens in the world. BvS is a reaction to Superman's existence, where Man of Steel was Superman's coming out. DCEU is builded around Superman and BvS was meant to show that in much more detailed ways by getting involved more sides and more characters to the subject of an alien existence.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, his supporters and friends went to mourn him. Doesn't change the fact that half the world still hates him and we are never shown them changing their minds, it just sort of happens. Yeah, he died killing Doomsday (in a very, very stupid manner, might I mention). He also helped save Earth from Zod in a way, yet he wasn't automatically hailed as the ultimate hero. He also wasn't nearly as much of an influential figure in the movies as he is in the comics and his death wouldn't have caused such a grand widespread depression all of a sudden. Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman are all pretty out in the open by the time of Justice League with Wonder Woman openly foiling criminals and terrorist attacks, so yes, it would be stupid to continue with Superman as a figure of controversy while ignoring everyone else.

His reaction wasn't reasonable. He should have absolutely zero reason to care about Zod, considering that the guy has been nothing but an ******* to him and everyone he cares about from the moment they met in addition to killing his biological father, he does not have any moral hangups about killing at this point and he doesn't care about Krypton either so potentially killing "the last kryptonian" shouldn't even register for him seeing as how he destroyed his race's only hope for coming back from near extinction only a few moments prior with the baby pods in the scout ship. Superman cried because Snyder and Goyer wanted a big "Superman makes a grand sacrifice" moment, not because it made logical sense and it ends up being important for all of thirty seconds before we cut to smiling Clark at the end of the film.

He was incompetent, though. He mostly just goes around brute-forcing everything and most of the thinking is done for him by others (he also spends 70% of the fights getting his ass kicked or when he's winning, something like a car dropping on his head or him getting hurt by a gatling gun or not dodging slow projectiles happens to even the balance. It was almost like Snyder delighted in having Superman thrown around, even if you could argue that Zod and company were trained soldiers, which still didn't stop them getting wrecked by Jor-El). If it wasn't for Jor-El, Lois and Colonel Whatshisface, Earth would be screwed. I'm not even talking about Batman v. Superman, where Superman is basically a plot device.

He had a statue built in his honour.

I have to ask what is this influence that Superman has in the comics that isn't present in the movies? He's not the first superhero in the comics or even the first one to go public and if you look at the origins of any superhero outside the Superfamily, their origins and decisions to become heroes have nothing to do with Superman. Diana, Barry, Arthur and Victor werent operating publicly til Clark's death and it is him that inspires Batman to form the League.

Killing somebody for the first time is not a pleasant experience no matter how evil the person was. Unless you're a sociopath and the fact that Clark didn't immediately try to kill Zod shows killing is not the first resort.

What was he supposed to do? Give the spear toDiana? She's holding Dolmsday in place and literally has her hands full. Give it to Bruce? There's a reason the guy spends the entire fight engaging Doomsday from a distance.

You're confusing incompetence with inexperience.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Yeah because it was an American city Zod attacked.

Zod had threatened the whole world.

I don't hear this complaints when most superheroes are entirely or primarily consisted of Americans.

Have you heard this complaint about Man of Steel prior to this? It isn't something that usually comes up.

Having the heroes all be Americans is only one aspect, and it isn't always an issue. But with characters that are closely tied with America and seen as patriotic figures, e.g. Superman, Captain America it becomes much harder to ignore when it comes to presenting them alone as defenders of Earth/humanity.

Man of Steel is a striking example because like I said, practically everyone involved in stopping Zod, besides Superman himself, is associated with the real life US military and Superman being American is a focal point of the character in the DCEU.

The closest other example that comes to mind from another superhero movie is Iron Man. People claim that movie is actually critical of arms manufactures, but I have a different reading.

[Agent Z]

Zod had threatened the whole world.



Have you heard this complaint about Man of Steel prior to this? It isn't something that usually comes up.

Having the heroes all be Americans is only one aspect, and it isn't always an issue. But with characters that are closely tied with America and seen as patriotic figures, e.g. Superman, Captain America it becomes much harder to ignore when it comes to presenting them alone as defenders of Earth/humanity.

Man of Steel is a striking example because like I said, practically everyone involved in stopping Zod, besides Superman himself, is associated with the real life US military and Superman being American is a focal point of the character in the DCEU.

The closest other example that comes to mind from another superhero movie is Iron Man. People claim that movie is actually critical of arms manufactures, but I have a different reading.

So? The attack still occurred in an American city where Superman was.

Clark wasn't the lone defender of humanity in Man of Steel, BvS or Justice League. Nor is him being an American the focal point of his character. If anything he's less jingoistic than most versions of Superman.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

At least when Zod actually made an appearance, the movie established that it was addressed to an entire planet in every language possible, unlike many other movies make alien invasion look like they happen in USA only and it is considered an entire world. The actual attack though? It happened in USA, so the military to be involved is nothing less but logical.

Yes, Zod address the whole world and then Superman and the US military are the only ones that do anything about it. The movie presents the US military as the defenders of humanity alongside Superman.

Man of Steel is a movie that exhorts militarism and Americanism.

Now just to clarify, this does not mean people can't like the movie, or that a person is bad for liking the movie, or that someone that likes the movie is also for militarism and believes in Americanism.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

So? The attack still occurred in an American city where Superman was.

That doesn't change anything.

Movies have used attacks on the US to symbolize the ultimate attacks on humanity as a whole before. See Independence Day, especially the attack on the White House.

Clark wasn't the lone defender of humanity in Man of Steel, BvS or Justice League.

In Man of Steel, it was Superman and people associated with the US military.

Nor is him being an American the focal point of his character.

Him being American was an important part of the character from Man of Steel to Batman v Superman. "I'm as American as it gets" does carry with some significant meaning.

I can't comment on Justice League as I haven't seen it.

If anything he's less jingoistic than most versions of Superman.

Ok, but since I didn't say anything about how Man of Steel's Superman is more jingoistic than other versions of the character, that is a completely irrelevant comment.

Other versions of the character are worse? Ok, you can bring that up when we're talking about them.

[Agent Z]

That doesn't change anything.

Movies have used attacks on the US to symbolize the ultimate attacks on humanity as a whole before. See Independence Day, especially the attack on the White House.



In Man of Steel, it was Superman and people associated with the US military.



Him being American was an important part of the character from Man of Steel to Batman v Superman. "I'm as American as it gets" does carry with some significant meaning.

I can't comment on Justice League as I haven't seen it.



Ok, but since I didn't say anything about how Man of Steel's Superman is more jingoistic than other versions of the character, that is a completely irrelevant comment.

Other versions of the character are worse? Ok, you can bring that up when we're talking about them.

That line is delivered as a joke and in no way is him being an American presented as a focal point in any of the movies. The main focal point is him being an alien. And the difficulty that comes with that.

You kind of brought up other versions of Superman when you mentioned him being tied to America.

[GreatKungLao]

Yes, Zod address the whole world and then Superman and the US military are the only ones that do anything about it. The movie presents the US military as the defenders of humanity alongside Superman.

Man of Steel is a movie that exhorts militarism and Americanism.

Now just to clarify, this does not mean people can't like the movie, or that a person is bad for liking the movie, or that someone that likes the movie is also for militarism and believes in Americanism.

I see. So you mean that if other countries actually aided Metropolis with their military forces and anything that could have helped defend against Zod, showing how people of different countries and cultures finally unite against common enemy, that would have made it better? I would agree with that, showing Superman calling the world for a union would have been a nice touch. But at least it is pointed out later that he does work for the safety of the entire humanity by helping aroung the world and not caring about political standpoint of his situation. As was well pointed out in BvS, would it be fair if Superman's actions were controlled by USA and he couldn't save a family because the government wanted him to be somewhere else at the moment? Now that is where Snyder got superior to Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

That line is delivered as a joke and in no way is him being an American presented as a focal point in any of the movies. The main focal point is him being an alien. And the difficulty that comes with that.

A joke with truth to it. It came into response to Sanwick questioning Superman's allegiance to America.

Him being an alien is also a focal point, an American Alien.

I should have used another word, since focal implies it was the and only and most important aspect of the character given focus, when it's a important aspect, not the only.

You kind of brought up other versions of Superman when you mentioned him being tied to America.

I said characters like Superman are seen as American figures, and it's more difficult to separate that from them than other characters, when analyzing their stories. I didn't comment on whether the Superman in MOS was any worse or better. It was a comment on what these characters carry with them in general.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I see. So you mean that if other countries actually aided Metropolis with their military forces and anything that could have helped defend against Zod, showing how people of different countries and cultures finally unite against common enemy, that would have made it better? I would agree with that, showing Superman calling the world for a union would have been a nice touch. But at least it is pointed out later that he does work for the safety of the entire humanity by helping aroung the world and not caring about political standpoint of his situation. As was well pointed out in BvS, would it be fair if Superman's actions were controlled by USA and he couldn't save a family because the government wanted him to be somewhere else at the moment? Now that is where Snyder got superior to Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns.

I don't want to say whether it would be better or worse, and even what you suggest still has issues.

What I try to do in discussions in these movies is point out what the movie is saying, how it frames things. Even if a movie is saying questionable things, it can be well made and say other thing as well, and some might not even consider what I call questionable to be questionable.

What I find is that people tend to be a lot kinder to Superhero movies about these issues. Like, I could see people arguing that Man of Steel is an anti-colonialism movie, or anti-surveillance, but I find such readings to be giving the a very generous reading, like saying Iron Man was critical of arms manufactures.

[Agent Z]

A joke with truth to it. It came into response to Sanwick questioning Superman's allegiance to America.

Him being an alien is also a focal point, an American Alien.

I should have used another word, since focal implies it was the and only and most important aspect of the character given focus, when it's a important aspect, not the only.



I said characters like Superman are seen as American figures, and it's more difficult to separate that from them than other characters, when analyzing their stories. I didn't comment on whether the Superman in MOS was any worse or better. It was a comment on what these characters carry with them in general.

Him being an American is barely a footnote. It gets brought up a grand total of once in a joke. You're giving it far more importance than it has in the film at all. The only other way it would be less important is if he weren't American at all.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Him being an American is barely a footnote. It gets brought up a grand total of once in a joke. You're giving it far more importance than it has in the film at all. The only other way it would be less important is if he weren't American at all.

Subtextually, Superman being American is vital in both MOS and BvS.

But that's not what this thread is about, so I'll stop now before I derail it any further.

[JAK]

No. I want a movie that actually shows both sides rather than mostly showing one side and just mentioning the other which is what MoS and B v S did.

Yes, I agree. It wouldn't have taken much, really, to set the balance better.

And why the audience didn't go see JL in droves, why it got such bad word of mouth, is hard to say. Yet, those pesky Marvel movies that so many people insist JL was imitating are doing great so it can't be the jokes. It's likely more that people have certain expectations of superhero movies and the buildup just didn't lead to people believing JL was what they wanted to see.

I loved MoS or at least liked it a lot. B v S not so much. Almost anything about Superman in JL was forgiveable for the return of getting a positive Superman who comes out of himself and takes the time to chat with kids.

The early numbers of JL are what's telling. It had an extra long "first weekend" and still was low. That says that the audience has checked out already. Part of that it due to the marketing... but a lot of that has to do with MoS and BvS. WW did well due to the fact that it's the first WW movie and word of mouth helped it from there. MoS and BvS (mainly BvS) are what really killed JL;s early numbers, and word of mouth kept it low. People had made up their minds about the franchise at that point.

It's going to take a VERY concerted effort on WB's part for future movies that tie into the franchise. They've got to be careful, but moreso they've got to be smart: two things they hadn't been much of up to this point.