FOURTH WORLD Pro/Con Workshop

[CRaymond]

Despite the excellent work being done in King's Mister Miracle miniseries, Kirby's largely idiosyncratic mythology is impenetrable to some writers, or merely a launchpad for others. Additions to the Fourth World come and go, as seen with Takion and Grayven. Bets are being placed even now when we'll see the last of Grail. Even an entire genocide do nothing to staying power.

Nu52 gave us dramatic redesigns of the characters, but even that was a momentary patina. Their presence in the DCU is undeniable, as they've been around forever, but they seem largely unusable, aside from infrequent attacks on Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League.

1. Mythology.
What are they the gods of? Do they have specific dominions? Darkseid is said to be the god of tyranny, but then what is Orion? Kalibak? Barda? What is their essential story? How does their hierarchy relate to a cosmic, internal/external order?

2. 52 Worlds.
The Map of Worlds positions New Genesis and Apokolips outside the alternate Earths, but does that mean there is only ever one version of Darkseid? Why does Prime Earth matter if Darkseid can go after the Soviet world of Earth 30 instead?

3. Why Superman? Why Wonder Woman?
What is so special about the resident heroes of the mortal DCU that Darkseid is compelled to challenge them?

4. Endgame.
Clearly, the stories of the Fourth World imply an end, wherein sons confront fathers, and temporary peace is turned to final war. Why, and What Comes After?

5. God Physiology.
At verious points, the New Gods present themselves as aliens, or as legitimate divinities. Who worships them if they are gods?


What's great about the Fourth World? What's bad about it? What should change? What should remain? Where is the Third World? Where is the Fifth?
Go nuts, entertain and inform us with your critical and constructive thoughts!

[BohemiaDrinker]

Despite the excellent work being done in King's Mister Miracle miniseries, Kirby's largely idiosyncratic mythology is impenetrable to some writers, or merely a launchpad for others. Additions to the Fourth World come and go, as seen with Takion and Grayven. Bets are being placed even now when we'll see the last of Grail. Even an entire genocide do nothing to staying power.

Nu52 gave us dramatic redesigns of the characters, but even that was a momentary patina. Their presence in the DCU is undeniable, as they've been around forever, but they seem largely unusable, aside from infrequent attacks on Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League.

I'll try to tackle these. :P

1. Mythology.
What are they the gods of? Do they have specific dominions? Darkseid is said to be the god of tyranny, but then what is Orion? Kalibak? Barda? What is their essential story? How does their hierarchy relate to a cosmic, internal/external order?

That is an interesting one: while Kirby did go for universal and atemporal archetypes, a lot of what constitutes the New Gods domain is derived from the Zeitgest of the sixties and the aftermath of World War 2.

Concerning the ones you asked: Kalibak is the the primitive, chimp-like alpha-male that believes his strength justifies him being in power. He is, in a lot of ways, the god of Violence (if we use modern vernacular we cou8ld call him the God of Toxic Masculitnity, but if that commentary ever becomes too overt, it'd lead to some sucky stories).

Orion is the other side of Kalibak in this: he is the ultimate warrior, but bound by a code of honor that is better than his origin. He's the god of righteous anger, but also the god of balance and justified causes. A guardian.

Now, Barda is really interesting in my view, as she is, essentially, the goddess of freedom-fighting, which makes her pairing with Scott, the god of Freedom, so obvious. Even her design is great at portraying that: basically a mini skirt and short top (symbols of the female liberation of the time) above a suit of armor. She is already free in the exterior, superficial manner, yet her interiopr is still - and always - ready to fight.

On the same note, we have Granny Goodness as the obvious archetype of the castrating mother, crusher of spirits, maintainer of the status quo, the oppressed turned oppressor. And each of the female furies is an archetype we use until this day to shut up or discredit women: "the whore, the crazy one, the bitch and the butch lesbian."

On the same noite, we could say that DeSaad is the God of scientific misuse while Himon is the God of science, and so on.

Finally, while New Genesis New Gods do have relations and dynamics amoing themselves, Apokilips gods are almost as an extension of Darkseid himself: they exist as a cog, a piece in the system to enable Darkseid being, and nothing more.

2. 52 Worlds.
The Map of Worlds positions New Genesis and Apokolips outside the alternate Earths, but does that mean there is only ever one version of Darkseid? Why does Prime Earth matter if Darkseid can go after the Soviet world of Earth 30 instead?

What Darkseid wants is the anti-life equation, that would eleiminate all of the free will in the cosmos and turn every living thing into an extension of himself. Waaaay back it was established that parts of the equation were on Earth, hence his interest in the planet.

3. Why Superman? Why Wonder Woman?
What is so special about the resident heroes of the mortal DCU that Darkseid is compelled to challenge them?

By Morrison's take, they're gods in larvae state. At some point, the idea of Superman, Batman and the Flash, etc, will be big enough as to make the ascend to divinity (which doesn't mean Bruce, Clark and Diana are going to "turn into gods").

4. Endgame.
Clearly, the stories of the Fourth World imply an end, wherein sons confront fathers, and temporary peace is turned to final war. Why, and What Comes After?

Kirby had some parallels with Nordic Mythology going and wanted his own Ragnarok. Also, Kirby being Kirby, I guess he wanted top just smithe evil at some point in his story, and he wanted to do it by punching it really hard . After, I guess, would come the 5th world.

5. God Physiology.
At verious points, the New Gods present themselves as aliens, or as legitimate divinities. Who worships them if they are gods?

Well, it's stated by Morrison (and implied by many others) that the New Gods we see are not the actual gods, but avatars, representations or shadows of themselves. In their true form, they could not be understood or even glimpsed by us, nor exist in our reality.

As for worship, it depends. Is waging war an act of worship to Ares? Is overcoming an obstacle an act of worship to Ganesha? In the same vein, is an actual of cruelty towards your children to assure that they remain just like you an act of worship top Granny Goodnes? Did the concentration camps and the shit Mengelle pulled on WW2 strengthen Desaad? Such is the nature of gods, I guess.

What's great about the Fourth World?

Honestly, if you really look at the fourth world you'll see a level of depth and resonance with our world that I don't think even Kirby realized (there has to be a strong intuitive component in this creation)

[CRaymond]

I'll start.

Where to begin? Literally!

With other mythologies, there's nearly always a protagonist with whom you explore the world of the gods. Sometimes it's a hero like Odysseus, sometimes it's a god like Thor, sometimes it's a challenge like Anansi... but with New Gods, you have a variety of entry points, each with their own stories.

One would assume Scott Free is the center of the New Gods, as he is similar to Moses or Jesus... but he ends up as tertiary Justice Leaguer who just wants to talk about groceries with his wife. That's not compelling!

One MIGHT assume Orion is the center, as he is the son of the devil raised in heaven. Sometimes he is our protagonist, but rarely does he bring the fight to his father.

One might even assume the Forever People are protagonists, as they are young people who carry the burden of a secret New Genesis powerhouse. Or is it Metron, the narrating god who seems to know everything, just as it happens? Or Black Racer, the spirit of death who is both a quadriplegic and a skier, and will undoubtedly outlive them all?

[Jcogginsa]

Despite the excellent work being done in King's Mister Miracle miniseries, Kirby's largely idiosyncratic mythology is impenetrable to some writers, or merely a launchpad for others. Additions to the Fourth World come and go, as seen with Takion and Grayven. Bets are being placed even now when we'll see the last of Grail. Even an entire genocide do nothing to staying power.

Nu52 gave us dramatic redesigns of the characters, but even that was a momentary patina. Their presence in the DCU is undeniable, as they've been around forever, but they seem largely unusable, aside from infrequent attacks on Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League.

1. Mythology.
What are they the gods of? Do they have specific dominions? Darkseid is said to be the god of tyranny, but then what is Orion? Kalibak? Barda? What is their essential story? How does their hierarchy relate to a cosmic, internal/external order?

The New Gods are meant to serve the same purpose for the modern world that old gods were: To answer the unknown questions. The old gods explained how the natural world worked, where rain and lightning came from. The New Gods are meant to answer moral questions, like the nature of Good and Evil

Darkseid is the god of tyranny. He is also a representation of Evil as a force that cannot be permanently beaten, but can be overcome

Orion is a God of War in a period that knows War is not something to be venerated. As a result, Orion is constantly questioning himself. This represents good, because to be good you must question yourself

2. 52 Worlds.
The Map of Worlds positions New Genesis and Apokolips outside the alternate Earths, but does that mean there is only ever one version of Darkseid? Why does Prime Earth matter if Darkseid can go after the Soviet world of Earth 30 instead?

No.

3. Why Superman? Why Wonder Woman?
What is so special about the resident heroes of the mortal DCU that Darkseid is compelled to challenge them?

Dakseid wants to spread evil. He wants to make everyone worse. And Superheroes stand in the way of that.

Additionally, since Cyborg received a Tie in to the New Gods in the Nu 52, I'd like to play into that, and use him as an Audience Surrogate

4. Endgame.
Clearly, the stories of the Fourth World imply an end, wherein sons confront fathers, and temporary peace is turned to final war. Why, and What Comes After?

Comic Books are eternal second acts. Their endgame is never gonna come
[QUOTE]

[CRaymond]

On the same noite, we could say that DeSaad is the God of scientific misuse while Himon is the God of science, and so on.

I had not considered there was such clear good/evil dichotomies... which is so stupid to not see when you have two planets specifically designed as good and evil.

Additionally, since Cyborg received a Tie in to the New Gods in the Nu 52, I'd like to play into that, and use him as an Audience Surrogate

Take my money.

Does Victor Stone/Cyborg have a religious perspective?

Also, does Halo have a connection to the Fourth World?

[Ascended]

Bohemia pretty much nailed it and I only have a few tidbits to add to what he has already said.

First, the New Gods are creatures of science and philosophy more than the ancient gods of myth like Zeus and Odin. Those old myths explained the natural world to people who didn't have the scientific acumen to understand their environment, while the New Gods run a bit deeper (or at least deal with more modern concerns). So you have Dessad, a god of torture, and his two minions Simyan and Mokkari, the gods of scientific abuse. You have Metron, a god of raw knowledge, but not the application of knowledge, and so on, rather than a god of the sun like Apollo or a god of storms like Thor.

And I think Bohemia missed answering the question, but yes, there is only one version of any New God; they exist beyond our multiverse. But as he did say (I think), you don't actually see the "real" Darkseid on earth; this dimension is too small, he can't fit inside it. What you see are avatars, and the avatars are not multiversal. So the "shadow" of Darkseid that fought the Justice League at the start of the New52 isn't the same Darkseid that ruined Earth-2 (the New52 version) but both are extensions of the same being. Think of it like fingers; each one is in a different universe but they're all part of the same hand.

Are they "true" gods or just really powerful aliens? They're sort of both and neither. They exist on a level of reality so far beyond us, the terms lose all meaning and definition.

As for "Why earth" and what comes next? Darkseid seeks Anti-Life, as others have said. Part of that equation is hidden on earth. Some stories have implied its a physical thing, like a key, to be found. Others have implied its buried in the genetic potential of humanity. Which leads into "What's next?" And that's the Fifth World. That's largely a blank, unanswered slate, but the most common theory I've seen (which is supported by certain stories like Final Crisis I believe) is that humanity's heroes will, in the next universe, become the Fifth World. That's not to say that Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne will outlive our reality and then assume godhood over the next universe, but that they, as concepts, will.

[Thor-Ul]

Despite the excellent work being done in King's Mister Miracle miniseries, Kirby's largely idiosyncratic mythology is impenetrable to some writers, or merely a launchpad for others. Additions to the Fourth World come and go, as seen with Takion and Grayven. Bets are being placed even now when we'll see the last of Grail. Even an entire genocide do nothing to staying power.

Nu52 gave us dramatic redesigns of the characters, but even that was a momentary patina. Their presence in the DCU is undeniable, as they've been around forever, but they seem largely unusable, aside from infrequent attacks on Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League.

Ok, let me try:

1. Mythology.
What are they the gods of? Do they have specific dominions? Darkseid is said to be the god of tyranny, but then what is Orion? Kalibak? Barda? What is their essential story? How does their hierarchy relate to a cosmic, internal/external order?

As was explained, thenew gods represents concepts more moderns but equivalents to the old world mythologies,were the gods were representations of the world around the people, as Thor was god of thunder or Zeus was the Sky. Darkseid is the totalitarism incarnated, Mr Miracle is the always rebelious spirit of the freedom, Orion and kalibak are the wild warriors but Orion has learned to keep in check his rage,bound to his code, whereas Kalibak has descend to a childish savagery, always tryinfg to please his father; Metron is the knowledge searcher blind to his own responsability, Himon, the technology applied to the right cause, Highfather, the illuminated, the forever people are the rebelious youth,and so. Even their backgrounds represents the modern world concepts, where Apokolips is a industrial nightmare, were hope seems crushed but always persists and New Genesis is an idilic paradise but which hides the scars of counteless wars.

2. 52 Worlds.
The Map of Worlds positions New Genesis and Apokolips outside the alternate Earths, but does that mean there is only ever one version of Darkseid? Why does Prime Earth matter if Darkseid can go after the Soviet world of Earth 30 instead?

As it was said, the new gods are avatars from higher concepts, same as the other pantheons. They are one and the same and what we see are projections to be understandable.

3. Why Superman? Why Wonder Woman?
What is so special about the resident heroes of the mortal DCU that Darkseid is compelled to challenge them?

You got it wrong. Darkseid is not compelled to challenge the earths heroes. It happens than the earth heroes are in a place of interest for Darkseid.

4. Endgame.
Clearly, the stories of the Fourth World imply an end, wherein sons confront fathers, and temporary peace is turned to final war. Why, and What Comes After?

I would say it is like the Ragnarok from the norse myths, from where Kirby was mainly inspired. Ragnarok is always coming but also a lot of things could happen before.

5. God Physiology.
At verious points, the New Gods present themselves as aliens, or as legitimate divinities. Who worships them if they are gods?

If I don't remember it wrong, I think it was Walter Simonson in Orion series who sstablished the new gods as the gods of Science and technology and everyact touse the tools of the modern world empowers them:

From the pages of ORION #24
"Gods are not dependent on their worshippers; worshippers are dependent on their gods.
And the New Gods? We're as old as time, constantly remade. Constantly reborn with each turning of the wheel.
No WORSHIPPERS? FOOL!!! LOOK ABOUT YOU! Each time a mortal turns on a computer, puts a piece of bread in the toaster, opens a door, strikes a match, or wonders at the stars...he WORSHIPS at the altar of the New Gods.
...Every living thing that swims or creeps or crawls or walks recent into the forever night...dedicates its life to our service. - Orion, to the defeated and blinded Arnicus Wolfram

Naturally, this could has been an hyperbole by Orion.
Also remember, than Kirby was very inspired by all the idea of "God was an astronaut" from that time and that was applied in Eternals too.

What's great about the Fourth World? What's bad about it? What should change? What should remain? Where is the Third World? Where is the Fifth?
Go nuts, entertain and inform us with your critical and constructive thoughts!

The fourthworld was Kirby unleashed and and wild. I don't know how to change it but I would like to explore it more.
This one I remember: The third world was the universe of gods who previously existed. Originally the concept of Kirby as to use the Norse myths to work in something new but Marvel didn't want to destroy Thor and al their background, understandable. The fifth world however ha been hinted as the possible evolution of earths and mankind if the humans are capables, but it is not something than Kirby implied in his works but it was development by other authors.

[HandofPrometheus]

Are the Gods Diana worship old gods? And if they aren't are they on the same caliber of the new gods or weaker?

[BohemiaDrinker]

Are the Gods Diana worship old gods?

Yes, no and maybe.

They are old in the sense that they repreent older concepts and concerns, aspect of a ancient society, as opposed top the New Gods modern form. They're not older than the New Gods in years, though, if that makes sense.

And if they aren't are they on the same caliber of the new gods or weaker?

All bets are off here. Do Gods get stronger by worship? What is it? And so on...

[Batgrayson]

And I think Bohemia missed answering the question, but yes, there is only one version of any New God; they exist beyond our multiverse. But as he did say (I think), you don't actually see the "real" Darkseid on earth; this dimension is too small, he can't fit inside it. What you see are avatars, and the avatars are not multiversal. So the "shadow" of Darkseid that fought the Justice League at the start of the New52 isn't the same Darkseid that ruined Earth-2 (the New52 version) but both are extensions of the same being. Think of it like fingers; each one is in a different universe but they're all part of the same hand.

And that´s the reason of why reality was decaying in Final Crisis. It was the first time that the real Darkseid was on Earth. But you can say that the New Gods´"shadows" per universe are more or less the same idea that different versions of the same character per universe, but it´s a more complex idea and gives New Gods a more mystical-divine nature.

[WonderScott]

Interesting discussion as I've been critical of the New Gods in the past for not being defined better or depicted consistently when they show up in titles - and I like the characters, especially the Apokoliptans.

Makes me wonder what happens when Darkseid and Doctor Manhattan come face to face, considering Doomsday Clock?

[BohemiaDrinker]

Interesting discussion as I've been critical of the New Gods in the past for not being defined better or depicted consistently when they show up in titles - and I like the characters, especially the Apokoliptans.

Makes me wonder what happens when Darkseid and Doctor Manhattan come face to face, considering Doomsday Clock?

Manhattan is a weird case. He's written as omnipotent, but if you look at DCU proper standards, he's not all that.

But we'll see. Someday. When Doomsday clock wraps up, right after Frank Miller's All Star Batman and Morrison's Wildcats. ¬¬

[BohemiaDrinker]

And that´s the reason of why reality was decaying in Final Crisis. It was the first time that the real Darkseid was on Earth. But you can say that the New Gods´"shadows" per universe are more or less the same idea that different versions of the same character per universe, but it´s a more complex idea and gives New Gods a more mystical-divine nature.

That was a really complex concept: Darkseid fell trough time, in the past, weakened and dying, around the time of Seven Soldiers (remember, boss DarkSide and Desaad, along with the defeated New Gods of new Genesis, were already on Earth back then). New Genesis chose Shilo Norman as a champion, etc, etc, but I have this personal theory that the fall of Darkseid was actually the anomaly that allowed Barry Allen to return: DS didn't arrive via Boom Tube, but sort of phisically traveled from his plane of existence to ours: he had of sort to "pierce" the Speedforce to do so.

At some point during said fall, both Darkseid and Barry were one with the whole universe and, consequentially, shared a consicence.

(God, I love comics!)

[Trey Strain]

DC has has struggled to continue the Fourth World because Jack Kirby didn't design it or want it to be continued.