Doomsday Clock #3 :The game is a foot

[theonetruebatman]

Hi Rikdad,

Long time reader here since the Black Glove saga. Can you go through the thread here and read my posts and see where we land together? I'd appreciate it, sir.

[Chubistian]

I’m tired of Johns writing the Watchmen characters, he just can’t get them right imo. Marionette and Mime are cool, but don’t fit at all with the Watchmen’s world, but I really dig that new Rorschach is a “nobody”. I can’t wait for Manhattan to show up since I think is a character Geoff might write all right and should’ve stick with instead of adding Ozymandias and The Comedian to the mix

[TruthAndJustice]

The bigger Question is if Vic Sage even existed in this current DCU. (and not the one in Suicide Squad - bleh) Still, it fits in with the age old DC trope of characters in one universe reading about people in another universe through comic books. (Multiversity being a more current example)

My guess is yes, Vic Sage was the Question, and he's dead now. Was Renee Montoya the Question afterwards? Again, my guess is yes -- she just stopped being the Question. (FINAL CRISIS is officially canonical, Renee appeared as the Question in that story...you get the drift.)

The New 52 version of the Question? Probably doesn't matter who he was because I bet we're never going to see him again. Just like we'll never see the New 52 version of Stormwatch again. (Apollo and Midnighter we might see -- right before they're both killed off and then they start appearing in THE WILD STORM.)

[Rikdad]

Doomsday Clock 3 goes between an era in which Luthor is clearly not a hero, then evolves into post Flashpoint in which Johnny Thunders is talking about his family and the thinking of the JSA and then goes back to the 80's/90's in which the Joker is out and terrorizing gotham.

I'm not sure I understand this grammatically. It goes "between" one era and… what? Normally, "between" is followed by two items, but you list three circumstances:
• Luthor not a hero
• Johnny Thunder remembers JSA
• Joker is terrorizing Gotham

We've never, as far as I know, seen Johnny Thunder when he didn't remember the JSA. As far as I know, we've only seen him in Rebirth and Doomsday Clock, and he has consistently indicated a memory of the JSA. (Maybe I've missed him in some other titles?)

Joker terrorizing Gotham happens repeatedly for the entire history of the character. He's in and out of Arkham regularly.

Neither of those things indicate any flow of time.

Luthor not being a hero hints that something changes between now and Doomsday Clock #1, but it's a year from now, so that's not surprising, and as noted earlier, we may have seen Luthor's turn already.

Luthor/Batman disbelieving the Watchmen characters does not indicate that they don't know of the existence of multiple Earths. Luthor's comments at the end of #2 hint that he believes that Veidt is from another world, but that he doesn't think Veidt had a very sound plan. In any event, Luthor's comments are so brief that we can't be certain what he believes.

"Hence why there is no crowds marching in the street in Doomsday Clock 3 but there is in #2."

There are protesters marching in both issues. In #3, we see them in the first panel of page 16.

I don't see any changes between #2 and #3, or between Rebirth and #3, that can't be explained by the conventional flow of time.

[CaptCleghorn]

Luthor/Batman disbelieving the Watchmen characters does not indicate that they don't know of the existence of multiple Earths. Luthor's comments at the end of #2 hint that he believes that Veidt is from another world, but that he doesn't think Veidt had a very sound plan. In any event, Luthor's comments are so brief that we can't be certain what he believes.

This is the main point of my "Does Watchmen still exist as a comic book in the DC Universe?" question? Dressing up as a comic book character is going to carry less credibility than having your own set of clothing or independent identity. It would be interesting to see if both sets of characters recognize each other from comic books and have knowledge of "secrets" about the other universe characters. It's also telling that none of the characters meeting have any powers that could show that they are who they say they are.

[Rikdad]

Veidt has already indicated that some characters in the DCU are fictional in the WU. Watchmen had explicit reference to Superman and Lois Lane in the end materials. Johns could retcon these sorts of details as he finds convenient. FWIW, Gaiman's Sandman #32-33 had comic books about Superman and Bizarro but called "Hyperman" and "Weirdzo", and Gaiman seemingly made a mistake in whether to use the DC names or his alternate names.

http://rikdad.blogspot.com/2014/12/n...superhero.html

[CaptCleghorn]

Veidt has already indicated that some characters in the DCU are fictional in the WU. Watchmen had explicit reference to Superman and Lois Lane in the end materials. Johns could retcon these sorts of details as he finds convenient. FWIW, Gaiman's Sandman #32-33 had comic books about Superman and Bizarro but called "Hyperman" and "Weirdzo", and Gaiman seemingly made a mistake in whether to use the DC names or his alternate names.

http://rikdad.blogspot.com/2014/12/n...superhero.html

Going to Question #17 (I think), we have an explicit reference to Watchmen as a comic book. This could be a major point in the reactions of Bruce and Lex.

[Thor-Ul]

Guys, I just remember we are forgetting another person of interest who is an Arkham resident right now:



So, there are chances she will appear in DC#4 after talk to Rorschach?

[silverlantern]

As always, Rikdad, these are amazing annotations.

I'm not sure if this was commented before, either on this board or elsewhere, but the back matter of this issue revealed that Carver Coleman (The Nathaniel Dusk actor) worked with director Otto Preminger on one of the Dusk movies. Otto Preminger, being the legendary director whose real-life experience with noir and mystery movies make him a perfect choice for the Dusk movies. Now, I may be reading too into this, but on the "A Killer's Kiss," section, it's mentioned that Coleman's co-star was killed by pneumonia. This struck out to me, and I realized the connection; Preminger would end up playing Mr. Freeze in the Adam West Batman TV show, and pneumonia can be caught by exposure to cold.

Not sure if this was a deliberate choice made on John's part, or otherwise a REALLY dark Easter egg.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As always, Rikdad, these are amazing annotations.

I'm not sure if this was commented before, either on this board or elsewhere, but the back matter of this issue revealed that Carver Coleman (The Nathaniel Dusk actor) worked with director Otto Preminger on one of the Dusk movies. Otto Preminger, being the legendary director whose real-life experience with noir and mystery movies make him a perfect choice for the Dusk movies. Now, I may be reading too into this, but on the "A Killer's Kiss," section, it's mentioned that Coleman's co-star was killed by pneumonia. This struck out to me, and I realized the connection; Preminger would end up playing Mr. Freeze in the Adam West Batman TV show, and pneumonia can be caught by exposure to cold.

Not sure if this was a deliberate choice made on John's part, or otherwise a REALLY dark Easter egg.

Wow. If this was indeed intentional, I tip my hat to Johns

[Jody Garland]

Guys, I just remember we are forgetting another person of interest who is an Arkham resident right now:


So, there are chances she will appear in DC#4 after talk to Rorschach?

With a smiley face like that in the background, I'd put it at even odds.

[_Feely_]

Wasn't enthralled with issue #2 and had intended to bail.

God knows why I caved but I'm glad I did.

I'm not blown away and some narrative choices I find brow raising (Batman). But, goddamn, I'm intrigued.

DC have my money through sheer novelty.

[Rikdad]

Guys, I just remember we are forgetting another person of interest who is an Arkham resident right now:
So, there are chances she will appear in DC#4 after talk to Rorschach?

I put that in my write-up. But since she's Saturn Girl, she doesn't need to talk to Rorschach. She just needs to be near him. I'd be very surprised if that doesn't transpire.

[Rikdad]

Otto Preminger, being the legendary director whose real-life experience with noir and mystery movies make him a perfect choice for the Dusk movies. Now, I may be reading too into this, but on the "A Killer's Kiss," section, it's mentioned that Coleman's co-star was killed by pneumonia. This struck out to me, and I realized the connection; Preminger would end up playing Mr. Freeze in the Adam West Batman TV show, and pneumonia can be caught by exposure to cold.

Not sure if this was a deliberate choice made on John's part, or otherwise a REALLY dark Easter egg.

Thanks, silverlantern, and that's an amazing catch. I didn't know that Preminger died of pneumonia, but this could be intentional on Johns' part even without the pneumonia detail being on his mind. Clearly, Johns put a lot of thought into the rather wordy documents at the end of the issue and he is liable to keep doing this for the next nine issues, too. I didn't pay much attention to the real world people in those Hollywood notes, but I'll add another possible connection: At least one source online sites Hedy Lamarr as a visual inspiration for Catwoman (though other sources say Jean Harlow), and Johns mentions her. Put those two possible connections together and the pair of them make it more likely that each is intended.

I keep thinking that we're going to find out that super speed is somehow going to be the "out" around John Law's alibi. Those details are just too precisely constructed, and involve the husband of Liberty Belle, who was originally married to Johnny Quick, for this to be meaningless. How, I'm not sure. Johnny Quick's speed came from saying an equation, so maybe JQ taught it to LB who taught it to JL.

[silverlantern]

Thanks, silverlantern, and that's an amazing catch. I didn't know that Preminger died of pneumonia, but this could be intentional on Johns' part even without the pneumonia detail being on his mind. Clearly, Johns put a lot of thought into the rather wordy documents at the end of the issue and he is liable to keep doing this for the next nine issues, too. I didn't pay much attention to the real world people in those Hollywood notes, but I'll add another possible connection: At least one source online sites Hedy Lamarr as a visual inspiration for Catwoman (though other sources say Jean Harlow), and Johns mentions her. Put those two possible connections together and the pair of them make it more likely that each is intended.

I keep thinking that we're going to find out that super speed is somehow going to be the "out" around John Law's alibi. Those details are just too precisely constructed, and involve the husband of Liberty Belle, who was originally married to Johnny Quick, for this to be meaningless. How, I'm not sure. Johnny Quick's speed came from saying an equation, so maybe JQ taught it to LB who taught it to JL.

Sorry if my initial phrasing was confusing, I actually meant that Coleman's co-star died of pneumonia, not Preminger himself in real life. How do you feel about the inclusion and heavy focus of the Justice Society characters in the series so far? To me, it's one of the most surprising developments in this book.