Green arrow workshop thread

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Based off comments in CRaymond's workshop poll. Green arrow got a mention and inspired some traffic so here it is

Anything to discuss?

[CRaymond]

Im not sure he’s broken at all. His Batman with a bow formula formed the basis of the CW Berlantiverse.

What doesn’t work abort the CW show?

[scary harpy]

I dislike that they are not developing GA's own villains. It seems to me they borrow from other rogue's galleries too often.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I dislike that they are not developing GA's own villains. It seems to me they borrow from other rogue's galleries too often.

Plus they rip-off storylines from other heroes as well. Season 3 had Ra's and the League of Assassins. Not only that, they also ripped off the Legacy/Contagion events as well. Deathstroke, H.I.V.E and Damien Darhk were all originally enemies of the Titans (although Deathstroke had been positioned as a foe of Green Arrow following the One Year Later jump post Infinite Crisis.) Vigilante was a anti-hero who sometimes found himself up against Nightwing. Prometheus was originally an enemy of Batman. The list is endless.

The trouble with Arrow, is that they've burned through most of Green Arrows rogues gallery: Clock King, Dodger, China White, Komodo, Constantine Drakon, Brick, Shado, Count Vertigo Cupid and now Ricardo Diaz. The only one who had staying power was Merlyn The Dark Archer. The only rogues they haven't done yet are Duke of Oil, Onomatopeia, Big Game, Bad Penny, Printer's Devil, Pinball Wizard, Hi-tek, Detonator, Death Dealer, Vengeance and Electrocutioner.

[Jon Clark]

Im not sure he’s broken at all. His Batman with a bow formula formed the basis of the CW Berlantiverse.

What doesn’t work abort the CW show?

In the Berlantiverse Oliver isn't competing with Batman. So TV Green Arrow can have that baddest bad-ass role all to himself and let other characters find ways to distinguish themselves from him. In the DCU Green Arrow needs to be more than "Batman with an archery focus". You need some unique personality quirks for Oliver that set him apart from Bruce.

Pre-Flashpoint the biggest difference was that Ollie was the team gad-fly always taking a side of an argument not held by the (usually more conservative) heroes. Not sure that aspect exists now. Another was that Ollie as a street level hero tended to be more plausible than Batman. Bruce usually faced purely comic book threats using largely comic book logic while, at least under Mike Grell, Ollie tended to be in less fantastic situations and face more real-world consequences. Not that Green Arrow was a documentary- just that on a scale of "Superman juggling planets" to "100% real"- they were on opposite sides of the midpoint at least.

[Trey Strain]

Im not sure he’s broken at all. His Batman with a bow formula formed the basis of the CW Berlantiverse.

What doesn’t work abort the CW show?

The comic isn't selling. In fact it's dipping alarmingly low.

Making Detective Comics a meeting of the Batverse and the Arrowverse would help.

[Chubistian]

I like the current direction, though sometimes it’s too much on the nose for today’s standards, it’s something that doesn’t feel all wrong for the character. If I had to make changes, I would probably revert the title to something closer to Grell’s run, maybe offer it to Bendis and have guests stars such as The Question (Vic Sage but without the magic stuff or whatever it was) and other urban heroes. Maybe even brand it Green Arrow & Black Canary since they usually share protagonism (though GA is the star)

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

So how would you go about making him more than just batman with a bow?

[scary harpy]

The trouble with Arrow, is that they've burned through most of Green Arrows rogues gallery: Clock King, Dodger, China White, Komodo, Constantine Drakon, Brick, Shado, Count Vertigo Cupid and now Ricardo Diaz. The only one who had staying power was Merlyn The Dark Archer. The only rogues they haven't done yet are Duke of Oil, Onomatopeia, Big Game, Bad Penny, Printer's Devil, Pinball Wizard, Hi-tek, Detonator, Death Dealer, Vengeance and Electrocutioner.

Have they?

Recognize any of these names?

• Black Arrow
• Bull's Eye
• Captain Kilgore
• Count Carl
• Dr. Blades
• Greenface
• Howard Lampe
• James Luckless
• Joe Cracker
• John Centaur
• Karpo
• Mr. Mephisto
• Mr. Who
• Professor Angel
• Professor Merlin
• Professor Million
• Professor Wurm
• Spider Slade
• the Angler
• the Blaze
• the Blue Lancer
• the Boomerang
• the Brain
• the Cat
• the Director
• the Doom
• the Flag
• the Ghost
• the Mask
• the Mighty Murdock
• the Phoney Crook
• the Professor
• the Red Devils
• the Robot-Master
• the Sea Scourge
• the Skylark
• the Snare
• the Specialist
• the Storm King
• the Turtle
• the Voice
• the Wind
• Timer
• Waxface

I'll be surprised if many did. Maybe this will help.

• the Voice More Fun Comics #74 (December 1941)
  
• the Blaze World's Finest Comics #7 (Fall 1942)
• the Boomerang More Fun Comics #79 (May 1942)
• Captain Kilgore More Fun Comics #78 (April 1942)
• James Luckless World's Finest Comics #8 (Winter 1942)
  
• Mr. Mephisto More Fun Comics #86 (December 1942)
• Professor Angel More Fun Comics #85 (November 1942)
• Professor Merlin More Fun Comics #75 (January 1942)
  
• Professor Wurm More Fun Comics #82 (August 1942)
  
• the Red Devils More Fun Comics #77 (March 1942)
  
• the Doom More Fun Comics #90 (April 1943)
  
• Joe Cracker More Fun Comics #92 (July–August 1943)
  
• Professor Million More Fun Comics #88 (February 1943)
  
• Timer More Fun Comics #96 (March 1944)
• Waxface World's Finest Comics #15 (Fall 1944)
  
• Count Carl More Fun Comics #102 (March 1945)
• Dr. Blades World's Finest Comics #17 (Spring 1945)
• the Specialist More Fun Comics #106 (November 1945)
• the Angler World's Finest Comics #23 (July–August 1946)
  
• the Brain Adventure Comics #107 (August 1946)
  
• Bull's Eye World's Finest Comics #24 (September 1946)
  
• the Cat Adventure Comics #104 (May 1946)
  
• Karpo Adventure Comics #111 (December 1946)
• Howard Lampe Adventure Comics #115 (April 1947)
  
• John Centaur Adventure Comics #120 (September 1947)
• the Mask Adventure Comics #123 (December 1947)
  
• the Mighty Murdock World's Finest Comics #26 (January 1947)
  
• Mr. Who World's Finest Comics #31 (November 1947)
  
• the Skylark Adventure Comics #114 (March 1947)
  
• the Storm King Adventure Comics #118 (July 1947)
• the Turtle Adventure Comics #122 (November 1947)
  
• the Director World's Finest Comics #32 (January 1948)
  
• the Flag Adventure Comics #128 (May 1948)
• the Professor Adventure Comics #132 (September 1948)
  
• the Robot-Master World's Finest Comics #34 (May 1948)
  
• the Sea Scourge Adventure Comics #134 (November 1948)
  
• Black Arrow Adventure Comics #143 (August 1949)
• the Blue Lancer World's Finest Comics #43 (December 1949)
  
• the Ghost Adventure Comics #136 (January 1949)
  
• Greenface World's Finest Comics #39 (April 1949)
  
• the Phoney Crook Adventure Comics #144 (September 1949)
  
• the Snare World's Finest Comics #41 (July 1949)
  
• Spider Slade Adventure Comics #141 (June 1949)
  
• the Wind World's Finest Comics #38 (January 1949)
  

Have you guessed?

These are the first foes that Green Arrow and Speedy fought. If I posted a list of the first foes that Batman fought, I am sure that you would have difficulty not recognizing most of the names.

I'm not saying all these villains are forgotten gold. (Some are far from it.) I am saying that writers (of comics and television) having done a deplorable job of developing Green Arrow's rogues gallery.

[Lightning Rider]

As with most of the characters that need "workshops", I feel GA, at least at the moment, doesn't have a world of his own right now. So you have to build him a memorable setting and write a memorable story that says something about the character. I enjoyed the Rebirth run but honestly it just felt like an inferior mish mash of older superior stories. None of it sticks, the villains are generic, the social themes are shallow (if not entirely inappropriate for the character), and the personal interactions aren't deep.

Look at Grell's run. The Longbow Hunters & beyond is memorable because it has Ollie and Dinah in a new setting, and each adventure in it challenges the characters in a personal way. Shado is cemented as a piece of the legacy, layers of their community in Seattle are constantly shown, etc. The stylized art helps a lot too of course. Year One is a great foundation for the character and the plot arises out of very distinct circumstances that establish strong themes going forward. Quiver isn't as conventional but it focuses strongly on Ollie's relationships with other heroes and the struggles he has with himself.

Ollie doesn't need to retread those elements but carry them forward. If Batman, someone with the richest rogues gallery and city, can have his corner of the DCU further enriched by a creative story like the Court of Owls, then GA can certainly feature in a story that stays in people's minds and introduces new lasting elements while continuing the same themes.

I suppose that's all a long-winded way of saying he needs to feature in good stories, but hopefully my points helped. Build him a memorable environment (even if its temporary) and challenge the character & his relationship through the story.

[Lightning Rider]

To continue in the same vein:

What themes and character traits make Ollie unique?

-He's a leftist crusader
-He's hotheaded and stubborn
-He has problems with commitment and fatherhood
-Star City and Seattle as distinct environments
-Marksmanship is his absolute strength

What relationships are important to him?

-Connor Hawke
-Roy Harper
-Dinah Lance
-Mia Dearden/Emiko Queen
-Shado
-Hal Jordan
-The Justice League

What struggles does his character face?

-The political limits of his vigilantism due to being a league member
-The hypocrisy and pragmatic complications of his wealth
-Addiction
-Running away from his problems
-Temptations for vengeance
-White savior accusations arising from time to time

Who are his greatest villains and how do they challenge him (thematically and physically)?

-Count Vertigo: an elitist monarchist who distorts perception and balance (crucial for an archer)
-Merlyn: assassin archer and member of the League of Assassins
-Clock King: begrudged master plotter, genius
-Deathstroke (sort of): super-soldier assassin with a personal grudge against Oliver
-The Yakuza and international crime, who allow GA to step into the world of shady government projects and globe-trotting adventures.

Grab a few in each category, make it feel new and exciting, and you've got yourself a much needed GA classic that can keep the character moving forward.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Im not sure he’s broken at all. His Batman with a bow formula formed the basis of the CW Berlantiverse.

What doesn’t work abort the CW show?

People claim its as a Batman show disguised as a Green Arrow show. Thats not 100% wrong but its not a 100% right either.

Ultimately any nonpowered hero is gonna be compared to Batman and the era Arrow debuted in was formed by Chris Nolan's Batman films.

Plus the classic Green Arrow was a 5+ year veteran versus the show's focus on his early days so they could have had a transition between the golden and silver age.

So the problem is they haven't done transition well nor have used existing Green arrow characters that well.

[CRaymond]

People claim its as a Batman show disguised as a Green Arrow show.

The comparison goes on to suggest CW's Flash is Superman, and CW's Supergirl is Wonder Woman. I think it's fair, interesting, and clearly only one perspective, as you say.

I think it's a great show, given how soapy CW seems to keep things. But if you subtract the annoying soap and the annoying choreographed fistfights, you barely have 15 minutes of intrigue.

I guess my next question is: What is the single most distinctive difference between the Green Arrow and Batman? Please don't say archery OR colors.

[CaptCleghorn]

To continue in the same vein:

What themes and character traits make Ollie unique?

-He's a leftist crusader
-He's hotheaded and stubborn
-He has problems with commitment and fatherhood
-Star City and Seattle as distinct environments
-Marksmanship is his absolute strength

What relationships are important to him?

-Connor Hawke
-Roy Harper
-Dinah Lance
-Mia Dearden/Emiko Queen
-Shado
-Hal Jordan
-The Justice League

What struggles does his character face?

-The political limits of his vigilantism due to being a league member
-The hypocrisy and pragmatic complications of his wealth
-Addiction
-Running away from his problems
-Temptations for vengeance
-White savior accusations arising from time to time

Who are his greatest villains and how do they challenge him (thematically and physically)?

-Count Vertigo: an elitist monarchist who distorts perception and balance (crucial for an archer)
-Merlyn: assassin archer and member of the League of Assassins
-Clock King: begrudged master plotter, genius
-Deathstroke (sort of): super-soldier assassin with a personal grudge against Oliver
-The Yakuza and international crime, who allow GA to step into the world of shady government projects and globe-trotting adventures.

Grab a few in each category, make it feel new and exciting, and you've got yourself a much needed GA classic that can keep the character moving forward.

I look upon this as an excellent GA primer. If an interesting story can't be made on this foundation, there's a problem. I might add a "Law and oder" cause of the month type of story idea, but other than that, this is what GA writers should be looking at.

[Trey Strain]

To continue in the same vein:

What themes and character traits make Ollie unique?

-He's a leftist crusader
-He's hotheaded and stubborn
-He has problems with commitment and fatherhood
-Star City and Seattle as distinct environments
-Marksmanship is his absolute strength

What relationships are important to him?

-Connor Hawke
-Roy Harper
-Dinah Lance
-Mia Dearden/Emiko Queen
-Shado
-Hal Jordan
-The Justice League

What struggles does his character face?

-The political limits of his vigilantism due to being a league member
-The hypocrisy and pragmatic complications of his wealth
-Addiction
-Running away from his problems
-Temptations for vengeance
-White savior accusations arising from time to time

Who are his greatest villains and how do they challenge him (thematically and physically)?

-Count Vertigo: an elitist monarchist who distorts perception and balance (crucial for an archer)
-Merlyn: assassin archer and member of the League of Assassins
-Clock King: begrudged master plotter, genius
-Deathstroke (sort of): super-soldier assassin with a personal grudge against Oliver
-The Yakuza and international crime, who allow GA to step into the world of shady government projects and globe-trotting adventures.

Grab a few in each category, make it feel new and exciting, and you've got yourself a much needed GA classic that can keep the character moving forward.

Get rid of Seattle and the politics. Otherwise that's a good list.