Mary Jane should stop being Peter's "Iconic" Main Love Interest

[Frontier]

It sounds like she's less her own character than I believed.

How disappointing.

I wouldn't say that, so much as that her own character development alongside Peter's is what ultimately helped their relationship become the endgame relationship it was, so retroactively it's hard to separate the two or how it expanded on who Mary Jane is as a character, and Peter as well.

[Celgress]

After reading some of the responses in this thread, I now know how those in charge of Marvel feel regarding the Spider Marriage and the character of Mary Jane lol. There is a vocal portion of the fanbase (which I highly suspect frequently punches above its own weight) that will never accept anything less than Peter and MJ being reunited. I honestly doubt this will change and the events of OMD will forever taint the Spider-Man 616 part of the franchise unless Marvel capitulates.

[Kevinroc]

After reading some of the responses in this thread, I now know how those in charge of Marvel feel regarding the Spider Marriage and the character of Mary Jane lol. There is a vocal portion of the fanbase (which I highly suspect frequently punches above its own weight) that will never accept anything less than Peter and MJ being reunited. I honestly doubt this will change and the events of OMD will forever taint the Spider-Man 616 part of the franchise unless Marvel capitulates.

If you had a ship sinking as infamous as OMD, you might be a little upset too.

[boots]

It sounds like she's less her own character than I believed.

How disappointing.

yeah, from that description alone she sounds like she’d fail the blechdel test. hard

i prefer your take, but it’s also worth keeping in mind the context of the time she was written in. unfortunately, most female supports were written in service of the main male character. that she started outside of that to begin with, can be seen as a positive

[Celgress]

If you had a ship sinking as infamous as OMD, you might be a little upset too.

I'm not faulting anyone for their feelings, rather I'm just stating what I've observed. I doubt Spider-Man will ever move beyond OMD because of how divisive the situation is and because neither side seems willing to compromise in any way or hear the arguments of the other. In fan circles, it has become the Israeli-Palestinian confliction of comic books. I've tried to joke around about the issue and at times I confess to mildly trolling both sides but I see now I've underestimated how deep the wounds are.

[LASERlips]

After reading some of the responses in this thread, I now know how those in charge of Marvel feel regarding the Spider Marriage and the character of Mary Jane lol. There is a vocal portion of the fanbase (which I highly suspect frequently punches above its own weight) that will never accept anything less than Peter and MJ being reunited. I honestly doubt this will change and the events of OMD will forever taint the Spider-Man 616 part of the franchise unless Marvel capitulates.

You got the wrong message if that's what you got from the responses here.

I'm not faulting anyone for their feelings, rather I'm just stating what I've observed. I doubt Spider-Man will ever move beyond OMD because of how divisive the situation is and because neither side seems willing to compromise in any way or hear the arguments of the other. In fan circles, it has become the Israeli-Palestinian confliction of comic books. I've tried to joke around about the issue and at times I confess to mildly trolling both sides but I see now I've underestimated how deep the wounds are.

Your arguments were heard, and revealed to be ill-informed (especially with regards to the nature of MJ and her strength and independence). We'll hear them again, no doubt, but hopefully after some hefty revisions.

[Von]

That's what iconic basically means: carved in stone in the pop-cultural subconscious.

^ This. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the fact that MJ is Pete's iconic love interest. The public mind has spoken.

The deed is done.


Anyway, I just came in here to watch the fireworks ... *ducks rotten vegetables thrown at OP" ...hey watch it!

[Celgress]

Dear Mods

I would like to add my voice to there being a multipurpose OMD Omni Thread for this board. That way if people want to avoid the topic altogether they can do so more readily. While I am aware this would create more work for the moderator team here, I find the constant multiple threads on this topic are more than a bit annoying at times and detract from the otherwise pleasant atmosphere found here.

[WebLurker]

I'm not faulting anyone for their feelings, rather I'm just stating what I've observed. I doubt Spider-Man will ever move beyond OMD because of how divisive the situation is and because neither side seems willing to compromise in any way or hear the arguments of the other. In fan circles, it has become the Israeli-Palestinian confliction of comic books. I've tried to joke around about the issue and at times I confess to mildly trolling both sides but I see now I've underestimated how deep the wounds are.

I can only speak for myself, but there's nothing for me to compromise on, given that the other side has nothing I want, if that makes any sense.

On the other hand, I think we reached the "we need to live and let live" point a long time ago. Fine if people still want to rehash it and all that, but there's no point getting steamed over it.

[Celgress]

I can only speak for myself, but there's nothing for me to compromise on, given that the other side has nothing I want, if that makes any sense.

On the other hand, I think we reached the "we need to live and let live" point a long time ago. Fine if people still want to rehash it and all that, but there's no point getting steamed over it.

Thank you for a calm, insightful reply. I find this is a very emotional subject and perhaps I come across as unduly harsh at times. Frankly, at this point, I've grown sick of this debate. However, I entertain no illusions it will end anytime soon. I've decided to refrain from any further comment when the issue arises, for my own piece of mind more than for anything else.

[Confuzzled]

yeah, from that description alone she sounds like she’d fail the blechdel test. hard

Umm, what definition of Bechdel Test are you using again? Unless "Blechdel" is something totally different from Bechdel?

MJ is one of Marvel's earliest female characters to pass the Bechdel test. Other Silver Age female characters, even heroines, like Jean, Sue and Janet, were often the sole women characters in their respective comics, making it hard for them to even meet another female character, much less have a discussion with them regarding something other than men.

MJ OTOH used to tease and humor Aunt May, Aunt Anna and even her rival Gwen, without bringing up the topic of boys or men. Later on in the 70's, she appeared in Ms. Marvel's debut title where she totally charmed Carol over with her own personality separate from anything to do with Peter.

[boots]

Umm, what definition of Bechdel Test are you using again? Unless "Blechdel" is something totally different from Bechdel?

MJ is one of Marvel's earliest female characters to pass the Bechdel test. Other Silver Age female characters, even heroines, like Jean, Sue and Janet, were often the sole women characters in their respective comics, making it hard for them to even meet another female character, much less have a discussion with them regarding something other than men.

MJ OTOH used to tease and humor Aunt May, Aunt Anna and even her rival Gwen, without bringing up the topic of boys or men. Later on in the 70's, she appeared in Ms. Marvel's debut title where she totally charmed Carol over with her own personality separate from anything to do with Peter.

yep, that one. at least i didn't spell it bekdal.

and man, if you reread my post, you'd see i don't disagree with you. we seem to keep missing each other as far as clear communication goes.

[boots]

Dear Mods

I would like to add my voice to there being a multipurpose OMD Omni Thread for this board. That way if people want to avoid the topic altogether they can do so more readily. While I am aware this would create more work for the moderator team here, I find the constant multiple threads on this topic are more than a bit annoying at times and detract from the otherwise pleasant atmosphere found here.

that would be standard practise on most boards, to create a mega thread or a sticky for any well trodden topics. it helps to keep things fresh.

but this particular board seems to get a lot of traffic from OMD discussion...maybe the mods want to keep that

for the most part, it's easy enough to skip over OMD threads.... though it can get a little tiresome when any thread on any topic eventually devolves into a OMD discussion.

"what's your favourite thing to spread on toast?"

"well, naturally vegemite. but talking about my favourite things always reminds me of my not favorite things. such as omd. god i hate mephisto"

there should be some sort of CBR equivalent of godwin's law for this.

[Confuzzled]

yep, that one. at least i didn't spell it bekdal.

and man, if you reread my post, you'd see i don't disagree with you. we seem to keep missing each other as far as clear communication goes.

My bad, I missed that last bit. But TBF I'll argue that MJ did start out in service to Peter. Even if she was the foil to Gwen, Gwen herself was the love interest of Peter. MJ was originally meant to be the more "exciting" option for Peter ala Veronica Lodge. It was another matter that Lee didn't expect her to take over as the lead love interest.

Having said that, her very persona inspired by the young women of the mid-late 60's during the surge of Second Wave Feminism enabled her to be more empowering than Gwen. It also allowed her to have more scenes with exclusively other women, which gave her the edge when it came to the Bechdel's Test over the likes of Gwen and even actual Silver Age Marvel heroines like the three I mentioned in my previous post, and even Carol Danvers in her earliest, pre-Ms. Marvel years*.

MJ's capability of coming into her own isn't really dependent on whether or not she is in a relationship with Peter. It's dependent on whether or not Marvel is invested in developing her as her own character even outside of her relationship with Peter. Empowered women don't abruptly lose their agency and ambitions when they enter relationships.

*As an aside, how interesting it is that the character Marvel is now pushing as their "premiere female superhero" in the vein of Wonder Woman first passed the Bechdel Test with MJ's help.

[Miles To Go]

yeah, from that description alone she sounds like she’d fail the blechdel test. hard

Somebody needs to scrap that thing. Hard.

Hate that strong female supporting characters are constantly derided these days for standing by their men and being loving companions while also living life the way they deem fit. There's nothing wrong with it. At all.