DC Comics move to the West Coast

[mrbrklyn]

Oh, please. You can find good comic book writers and artists in lots and lots of places, including NY, LA, and Minneapolis. And, since the advent of FAX machines, e-mail, and the internet, they don't need to live where the company is headquartered.

The population of LA isn't actually a monolith. There are all sorts of people living there.

I think you'll have to look elsewhere for why comics these days aren't more like what you want them to be. A lot of them aren't like what I want them to be, too, but I don't think the differences in the nature of "creative energy" in LA vs. NY has anything to do with it. And a lot of my concerns (as well as the concerns you mention) predate DC's move to the West Coast.

That last sentence is expecially true. There was vocal concern about the blockbuster mentality goin back at least as early as 1980's In 1986, Rich Kreiner wrote a faily decent article in the Comics Journal, issue 106, which explored how this mentality was playing out in the product lines of the major publication houses at that time. So I suppose that as much as a West coast move affected DC (and Marvel), the forces that made that move happen had been in place for quite a while. I mean, Comics where just increasingly difficult to make a profit from and the profit center moved increasingly to video animation and cinema production. It is hard to pay and keep top talent without certain minimal and regular sales numbers which have been dropping steadly over the last 40 years.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

I really do wish that DC was still headquartered in NY though. Just because of NY's history with comics and publishing. NYC has always been the best place to hunt for comics as a collector, and it's sad to see Warner consolidate the publishing division into their west coast operation.

[mrbrklyn]

I really do wish that DC was still headquartered in NY though. Just because of NY's history with comics and publishing. NYC has always been the best place to hunt for comics as a collector, and it's sad to see Warner consolidate the publishing division into their west coast operation.

There is a convergence with advertising, product design, and comics, and these cross pollinated. Of course, these paper based products have been gutted in most regards. Warner Bros ditched Time Magazine. They would ditch DC in a minute if it wasn't for potential cinima products.

[mrbrklyn]

I really do wish that DC was still headquartered in NY though. Just because of NY's history with comics and publishing. NYC has always been the best place to hunt for comics as a collector, and it's sad to see Warner consolidate the publishing division into their west coast operation.

That is pretty much it. By leaving NY they largely cut off their oxegen supply. Those collectors became creators and NY is fertile ground for stories and creativity. But how many book are they actually selling now? There is no mass outlet for comics. Even by the mid-1970's, while marvel was at it's most creative and dominating, it was almost bankrupt. It was only saved by Star Wars. That was the future template.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That is pretty much it. By leaving NY they largely cut off their oxegen supply. Those collectors became creators and NY is fertile ground for stories and creativity. But how many book are they actually selling now? There is no mass outlet for comics. Even by the mid-1970's, while marvel was at it's most creative and dominating, it was almost bankrupt. It was only saved by Star Wars. That was the future template.

Do they though? I live in NY too, and I kind of wish DC were still here as well, but I don't think they've cut off any supply of anything by moving to L.A. Again, with the internet, creators and editors communicate over long distances all the time. I mean, again, Scott Snyder and Geoff Johns, DC's two biggest names right now, live in New York and L.A, respectively. Plus, so many comic book artists nowadays don't even live in the U.S. (and that's a good thing because it means comics are becoming more international and giving others an opportunity to participate in something they love).

So, doesn't really matter where the DC headquarters is. It could be in Grand Rapids, Michigan and still have no impact. Plus, its not like DC doesn't sell comics in NY anymore or show up at NYCC. I was just at Midtown Comics the other day and DC titles are still there.

Plus, you know, it has actually been said that there are more artists, writers, actors, etc. living and working in L.A. than in any other city in the entire history of human civilization. So even if they were limited to L.A. writers, they'd have a pretty large pool to select from.

Pretty much every other creative industry has always used the NYC-L.A. pipeline. I don't see why comics should be any different.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

That is pretty much it. By leaving NY they largely cut off their oxegen supply. Those collectors became creators and NY is fertile ground for stories and creativity .

there is some truth to that. I mean would guys like Ralph Macchio or Neal Adams have gotten into comics if DC had been in LA 40 years ago? I kinda doubt it.

But how many book are they actually selling now? There is no mass outlet for comics.

oh man, yeah you hit the nail on the head...I could rant forever about that topic.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

yeah...Phil Hestor can draw Green arrow from his rural Iowa...and that's great... but I think there is something to be said about NYC.

Really though the biggest thing about moving DC is how warner is downplaying their publishing arm....

[mrbrklyn]

Do they though? I live in NY too, and I kind of wish DC were still here as well, but I don't think they've cut off any supply of anything by moving to L.A. Again, with the internet, creators and editors communicate over long distances all the time.

I think by this time we can all see what kind of mistake it is to believing that the internet can replace to kind of mentoring, education and communication that can only come from personal and close contact. For a Brownsville Brooklyn youth today to get his first job being a gofer and studiio artist for a mentoring artist and getting advise from editors is something that can not be replaced by email.
And they aren't moving to LA.

These guys weren't just writers, and artists, they were a community.

I mean, again, Scott Snyder and Geoff Johns, DC's two biggest names right now, live in New York and L.A, respectively. Plus, so many comic book artists nowadays don't even live in the U.S. (and that's a good thing because it means comics are becoming more international and giving others an opportunity to participate in something they love).

That has always been the case, but it doesn't change the fact that, for example, Marvels BullPen was a proving ground for dozens of top talents who started in Marvel as teenages.

So, doesn't really matter where the DC headquarters is. It could be in Grand Rapids, Michigan and still have no impact. Plus, its not like DC doesn't sell comics in NY anymore or show up at NYCC. I was just at Midtown Comics the other day and DC titles are still there.

Plus, you know, it has actually been said that there are more artists, writers, actors, etc. living and working in L.A. than in any other city in the entire history of human civilization.

I don't believe that but I am willing to be proven wrong. Aside from that though, creating comics is not like writing for Johny Carson. These books are a natural outgrowth of the imigrant expereine, and communities around the city. Whatever will inspire these new books, god help us if it is coming from the youth of Sana Barabara and Burbank.

there is some truth to that. I mean would guys like Ralph Macchio or Neal Adams have gotten into comics if DC had been in LA 40 years ago? I kinda doubt it.

oh man, yeah you hit the nail on the head...I could rant forever about that topic.

If your not selling comics to the mass market and they aren't a profit center, then the problem, from a business prespective, resolves itself. We don't give a **** about the stories as long as we have something that can be transposed to the big screen in 6 months. Can you imagine trying to do Dr Strange not from the Village?

I understand that this is a bit of an Annie Hall problem but Annie Hall didn't have to put out 12 issues of the Batman a year, while developing 3 new villians and 2 new heros.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I think by this time we can all see what kind of mistake it is to believing that the internet can replace to kind of mentoring, education and communication that can only come from personal and close contact. For a Brownsville Brooklyn youth today to get his first job being a gofer and studiio artist for a mentoring artist and getting advise from editors is something that can not be replaced by email.
And they aren't moving to LA.

These guys weren't just writers, and artists, they were a community.

Well, for one, Scott Snyder is still running his own little school for DC artists/writers

Secondly, L.A. has a large pool of young writing talent. You're so worried about what happens to a young writer from New York? Well, how did any other writer who wasn't from New York break into the business before? Who did they turn to for guidance or mentorship? Well, they got training from whatever outlet was available to them. Sometimes that involved moving to NY. Sometimes it didn't. If they really wanna write for DC, then they will move wherever they have to. And apparently, writers and artists haven't had to live in NYC for a long time. Jeff Lemire, Geoff Johns, James Robinson, Sterling Gates, Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Rick Remender, Tom King, Brian Azzarello, Robert Kirkman, Brian K. Vaughn, etc. are all high profile writers who don't live in New York. Actually, a lot of those guys live in L.A.

That has always been the case, but it doesn't change the fact that, for example, Marvels BullPen was a proving ground for dozens of top talents who started in Marvel as teenages.

Okay, and? A bullpen can be a proving ground whether its in New York or L.A. or Chicago or Miami.

I don't believe that but I am willing to be proven wrong. Aside from that though, creating comics is not like writing for Johny Carson. These books are a natural outgrowth of the imigrant expereine, and communities around the city. Whatever will inspire these new books, god help us if it is coming from the youth of Sana Barabara and Burbank.

Johnny Carson? You really think that the writing pool in L.A. is only apt to writing talk shows from 50 years ago?

Also, you know, L.A. has its own immigrant population. I mean, pretty much every big city of a certain size does.

We get it. L.A.'s not your cup of tea. But there's no empirical proof whatsoever that the quality of comics will suffer because they've moved the headquarters to L.A. Its been there for almost three years now.

[mrbrklyn]

Okay, and? A bullpen can be a proving ground whether its in New York or L.A. or Chicago or Miami.

No, it can't actually. City's are not name plates that are interchangeable. NYC and its communities are unique. There is nothing like it in LA (or Chicago or Miami). You happened to pick three citiies I am very familiar with. The closest you get to anything like NYC would be, FWIW, SF. But SF is devoid of children... or so it feels. Phil somewhat. Boston, a little bit. LA, not in the least bit like NYC. The comic creators didn't land in on the door steps of DC and Marvel in NYC. They did an apprenticeship in a community of comic creators, often for years before stepping into the limelight. They didn't just get picked up off the movie lots and MGM and move in to write Batman. They honed their trade over years. Marvels Bullpen could not have ever happened in LA. LA doesn't have the culture necessary to sustain one. Comics are a form of street art, or at least they once were.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No, it can't actually. City's are not name plates that are interchangeable. NYC and its communities are unique. There is nothing like it in LA (or Chicago or Miami). You happened to pick three citiies I am very familiar with. The closest you get to anything like NYC would be, FWIW, SF. But SF is devoid of children... or so it feels. Phil somewhat. Boston, a little bit. LA, not in the least bit like NYC. The comic creators didn't land in on the door steps of DC and Marvel in NYC. They did an apprenticeship in a community of comic creators, often for years before stepping into the limelight. They didn't just get picked up off the movie lots and MGM and move in to write Batman. They honed their trade over years. Marvels Bullpen could not have ever happened in LA. LA doesn't have the culture necessary to sustain one. Comics are a form of street art, or at least they once were.

You have no evidence that what DC is suddenly gonna go off the rails from moving to L.A. If honing one's skills as a writer can only be done in New York, then why are so many prominent comic book writers and artists nowadays not located in New York City? Again, of the list I provided, about half of those top-tier creators I mentioned live in Los Angeles.

I live in New York too. And I love New York. But I'm not gonna pretend that the comics industry needs to be headquartered here. Some industries like Wall Street and fashion magazines? Yes, they have to be in NYC because the network of contributors/resources wouldn't exist anywhere else in the country. But the comics industry isn't the same as those industries. It may have once been true that it needed to be in New York, but its not true now.

Plus, you know what city has a lot of writers and writing communities? L.A. Its kind of famous for it.

Point is: DC will be fine.

[mrbrklyn]

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;3482196]
We get it. L.A.'s not your cup of tea.[/quotes]

That is besides the point

But there's no empirical proof whatsoever that the quality of comics will suffer because they've moved the headquarters to L.A. Its been there for almost three years now.

Emperical proof when discussing comics is a dubious thing to say the least. What would you like as a metric.

The quality has already been reduced...even before it left for LA. In that regard, you are probably right that you can't save the industry from NYC or LA. As someone wrote above, it is just an IP mine for movies and TV. Even still, that creative operation would likely be better fueled New York. Yes, BTW, I have been to East LA, and it is a segregated ghetto. Nothing like Jackson Heights. The proposition is essentailly that you can just swap out NYC for LA and get the same results. And you can not. The books have definitely been overun by a Hollywood flare. Big productions. Big Stories. Shallow charactor development. Completely out of touch this the readers, for which there are less and less every day. The future of comics seems to be a bunch of hollywood writers producing an endless stream of blockbuster books, repeating the same storylines over and over. That is probably why I only read independent titles at this point.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That is besides the point



Emperical proof when discussing comics is a dubious thing to say the least. What would you like as a metric.

The quality has already been reduced...even before it left for LA. In that regard, you are probably right that you can't save the industry from NYC or LA. As someone wrote above, it is just an IP mine for movies and TV. Even still, that creative operation would likely be better fueled New York. Yes, BTW, I have been to East LA, and it is a segregated ghetto. Nothing like Jackson Heights. The proposition is essentailly that you can just swap out NYC for LA and get the same results. And you can not. The books have definitely been overun by a Hollywood flare. Big productions. Big Stories. Shallow charactor development. Completely out of touch this the readers, for which there are less and less every day. The future of comics seems to be a bunch of hollywood writers producing an endless stream of blockbuster books, repeating the same storylines over and over. That is probably why I only read independent titles at this point.

Sorry, but the things you point out, I don't see in any way as correlated with moving to L.A. Firstly, the reduction of quality that some here point to in DC Comics started waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before DC moved to the West Coast. The New 52 (probably DC's worst decision ever) was started when they were still in New York, several years before making the move. DC's previous slumps also took place while DC was still in NY. And actually, Rebirth (an initiative that many have seen as saving DC from itself) started while DC was in L.A. Plus, like it or not, Metal (the current "big" story with little to no character development and a barely cohesive plot going on at DC) is being written by Scott Snyder, a New Yorker.

Secondly, Marvel is just as guilty of these sins as DC is. "Big" stories with shallow character development? Yeah, Marvel's had plenty of those. And its stayed in NYC.

In short, there is just nothing pointing to the conclusion that DC has to be in NY to make good comics.

[mrbrklyn]

You have no evidence that what DC is suddenly gonna go off the rails from moving to L.A.

I guess that is the point. I didn't come to start this thread because I noticed that DC left. It came because I have been deeply unhappy with the product over the last few years. There are fewer and fewer words. There are fewer frames. Storylines are disapearing to bare bones and boilplated conflicts. Romance and humour has nearly died. Look at Black Lightning nuber 1, for example. You have 22 pages (which are unnumbered). A double page spash page on 2 and three. A full page panel on page 10 with 6 world "how was your flight". Most of the pages have only 5 panels, no thought ballons. Most pages have page wide panels filled with art that doesn't move the story at all. One charactor is killed by unexplained violent, a model ship thrown through her head... gratuitious violence, without explanation or cause. It sucks. It is 10 minutes worth of reading. As a promo for the TV show it works.

[mrbrklyn]

On that note... Disney just swalled Fox

And Mr Miracle is a Miracle, in a rigid 3x3 panel design...