Official : Bendis gets both books

[BBally]

If this succeeds, it could put to rest my theory that a lack of a strong Superman influence was necessary to get it back on its feet. Time will tell. Even if it does work out though it won't make me any more accepting of it though, personally.

DC tried to do that once with Mon El or Valor as he was called back then serving as their inspiration and I don't see many Legion fans or many DC fans being very positive on that part of Legion history so moving them away from Superman's influence might not help either.

A number DC fans act as if New52 ruined Teen Titans (for a while at least) but that was nothing compared to the effect COIE had on the Legion whose title was once one of DC's big sellers even in the years DC saw a decline before the Crisis changed every thing and now many comic readers see them as irrelevant because of the timeline shake ups the title had since.

[Konja7]

Legion has been ignored far too often in Clark's origin these last thirty years, but it is a big damn deal. And I love the idea of Jon getting that same experience. I just dont like the idea of Jon getting that experience at Clark's expense.

I'm curious about this, is it really at Clark's expense?

I mean the story of the Legion with Superboy (Clark) seems to be ignored and retconned for a long time.

Even if Bendis doesn't have this idea about a reboot, it's seems pretty likely DC will still ignore most of the connection between the Legion and Clark.

So, Clark wouldn't really be affected.

[Kon93]

Theory--Jon AND Damian will be sent to the future to team with the Legion.

[Superlad93]

It might be best for the Legion, possibly for Jon. I'm not at all convinced its best for Clark, who is my main priority.

You know as a Superman fan first, I see how this would sting, but of the three parties involved in this (Superman, Jon, and the Legion) only one of those parties can "take the hit." When I say I think it's for the best, I'm saying that it'll ultimately do the most good the weaker ips and for new perspective fans.

I think the Legion does a whole lot to advance and influence Clark's development. Its the first group of people Clark actually feels he can fully be himself around, it puts the idea of costumed superheroics in his head, and it plays to his optimism and big picture mentality. Clark doesn't just believe in a better tomorrow, he's seen it. He's confident that we'll get there because he already knows we do. And he's seen a much bigger, wider universe with the Legion, saw consequences play out across entire civilizations, which provides a big chunk of that "Superman" worldview and mindset. And the reason people in the DCU trust heroes so much is because Superman is so damn good at it and was from the very first day, and the reason he's so damn good at it is the Legion.

I see what you're saying, but I also see the counter argument of that with saying that it takes something away from Clark (as it adds) when he's more or less allowed to know that he'll do fine. Narratively speaking, I think it's just as powerful to have Clark as a teen at a crossroads of faith, and having to make the choice to go forward rather than being told it'll be okay. I think there's something to be said about that.

I think the metaphor you've brought up has as great a successor as we could hope for (far better than the literal nothing of Post-crisis) in the idea that it's taking the idea of legacy that both Jon and the Legion represent, and it's combining them. Bendis has done a great job during this run of mixing the father/caretaker metaphor (for Earth) and Clark's literal father role. I was just rereading the first arc of Superman, and the he talks about Earth and all of its people is so fatherly and hopeful, but you can also tell that he's absolutely scared to death of what they may do to themselves or what might happen to them, and he doesn't want to control their lives. Comparing that to how Clark handled Jon's choices in Man of Steel, and later how he handed not being there for him, you can see the direct comparisons. He wants to be there as much as possible, but he, begrudgingly, knows that he can't over step. Jon working with the Legion (who are obviously Earth and its people in this metaphor) show Clark that he's been doing the right thing. The two stand-ins for tomorrow both follow his example and the achieve greatness, and this is them coming together.

It's basically taking the father metaphor to its grandest scale. Superman was a father and inspiration to Jon and them all, and they're about to show him the fruits of that struggle.

I think without the Legion, there's a lot about Clark that doesn't make sense and you gotta jump those hurdles when the best answer is already there in front of you.

Even as someone who ultimately goes for Clark as Superboy and him with the Legion, I don't agree with this at all. I think the Legion and Superman are linked completely, yes, 100%. Them being inspired by the S and the legacy of Superman is fundamental to both them. But I don't agree with saying that he somehow makes less sense. I think that's hyperbolic.

Just realized I only replied to your posts, Superlad. Not trying to single you out or anything man, you just brought up good points I wanted to hit back on. And Im glad you're so excited for this. And I hope that, in the end, I get to tell you that you were right the whole time. But come on man, you gotta admit this is a massive detraction.

It's all good, man. You know I love the conversation, especially with you! And based on what I know right now, I don't feel comfortable calling it a detraction. It just feels like another way of going about the idea that's remains far closer than post-crisis, but is expressed in a unique and new way. So far, I'm genuinely okay with that.

[Ascended]

I'm curious about this, is it really at Clark's expense?

I mean the story of the Legion with Superboy (Clark) seems to be ignored and retconned for a long time.

Even if Bendis doesn't have this idea about a reboot, it's seems pretty likely DC will still ignore most of the connection between the Legion and Clark.

So, Clark wouldn't really be affected.

Honestly at this point I have no idea if the Legion is in continuity or not (or was before this idea came up). The Legion's ties to Clark were established in the New52 and pre-Flashpoint. It was in Secret Origin. The current version of Superman is supposed to be a mix of those two continuities, and the origin seems like a SO framework. But who the hell knows whether it's there or not these days though? It certainly hasn't been mentioned, as far as Im aware, and that spread Jurgens did during Reborn didn't include them....though that didn't include a lot of stuff so I dont feel like that really says anything one way or another, yknow?

And yeah, I think Clark would be losing out without that in his background. Just because Byrne made a mistake and dumped it, and other creators have continued that mistake, doesn't mean Superman isn't losing something here. But if the Legion goes to Jon, it's something Clark's lost that's going to be a whole hell of a lot harder to put back later on without screwing around with Clark's history, Jon's, *and* the Legion's. And considering how DC loves to jump around with different continuities I feel like all three IP's could end up getting screwed over down the line when some creator decides to mess with history and put the Legion back where they came from (again).

I see what you're saying, but I also see the counter argument of that with saying that it takes something away from Clark (as it adds) when he's more or less allowed to know that he'll do fine. Narratively speaking, I think it's just as powerful to have Clark as a teen at a crossroads of faith, and having to make the choice to go forward rather than being told it'll be okay. I think there's something to be said about that.

Yeah, there's something to say there, absolutely.....but I dont think the Legion really disqualifies that either. I think you can do both. I mean, really all you need is one word; "Hypertime" and all the certainty Clark gets from the Legion becomes a "possible" future there's no guarantee of reaching. Which basically just gives Clark a target to aim towards and some fantastic adventures in his youth that help prepare him for being Superman.

I think the metaphor you've brought up has as great a successor as we could hope for (far better than the literal nothing of Post-crisis) in the idea that it's taking the idea of legacy that both Jon and the Legion represent, and it's combining them. Bendis has done a great job during this run of mixing the father/caretaker metaphor (for Earth) and Clark's literal father role. I was just rereading the first arc of Superman, and the he talks about Earth and all of its people is so fatherly and hopeful, but you can also tell that he's absolutely scared to death of what they may do to themselves or what might happen to them, and he doesn't want to control their lives.

It *is* a great idea to explore and a nice way to combine these themes. And *if* Clark is deeply involved, from inspiring the Legion to dealing with the foundation of the United Planets and everything that comes with that.....then I'd call it an even trade. If the Legion used to represent a big part of where Clark came from, and they turn it into where Clark's going (taking the rest of us along) then that can be a more active part of the narrative, and I'd call that a win. But thats gonna be a hard line to walk and I dont really see any of that lasting too long after Bendis leaves. But I will give you this; there's a avenue where this *could* work, in theory.

Even as someone who ultimately goes for Clark as Superboy and him with the Legion, I don't agree with this at all. I think the Legion and Superman are linked completely, yes, 100%. Them being inspired by the S and the legacy of Superman is fundamental to both them. But I don't agree with saying that he somehow makes less sense. I think that's hyperbolic.

Yeah, maybe I'm being a little hyperbolic but I like the symmetry there; Clark is inspired by the Legion and that helps shape Superman, and Superman inspires the creation of the Legion. I like the way they both help create the other and it builds a fun cycle across a thousand years. And it helps rationalize why Clark didn't become a scientist (or businessman or whatever). I mean, if he wants to improve the world, providing some limitless energy and new technologies would remove a whole lot of reasons people treat each other poorly. But if teen Clark saw super kids flying in the future and stomping crime? Him flying in the present stomping crime makes more sense, right?

It's all good, man. You know I love the conversation, especially with you!

>We disagree but still value the other's insights and opinions while remaining respectful bro-fist!!<

And based on what I know right now, I don't feel comfortable calling it a detraction. It just feels like another way of going about the idea that's remains far closer than post-crisis, but is expressed in a unique and new way. So far, I'm genuinely okay with that.

And Im glad you are. I think Ive been a much harder sell on Bendis' run than you have been though. I've enjoyed it (I mean, other than Rogal sucking all the fun out of the room and a few other nitpicks) but Bendis has had to work more to win me over on stuff like aging up Jon or Krypton being "murdered." As with all things it'll come down to the execution and what it adds to the narrative, compared to what it takes away. And there is tons of great stuff in Jon being with the Legion. That part I am still all-in for. But, well you know me, I hold pre-Crisis elements as being pretty important, and I don't adjust to changes there very easily or willingly.

But Bendis has done right by me so far, and I'm willing to see where he goes. I'm not convinced at all it'll be to my liking, but dude has earned some trust thus far.

And if it doesnt work out (by my subjective standards) then me and Sacred can bitch about it together.

[Superlad93]

Which basically just gives Clark a target to aim towards and some fantastic adventures in his youth that help prepare him for being Superman.

Like said, I agree, but I think my point still stands because 'possible' or not comes off more as splitting hairs when it comes to the greater narrative. It remains what it is, I feel.

But thats gonna be a hard line to walk and I dont really see any of that lasting too long after Bendis leaves. But I will give you this; there's a avenue where this *could* work, in theory.

If Bendis puts as much elbow grease into really hammering this out as he did the Ultimate line, then I think it'll be in a much better place for more writers to 'get' it from the word go. Plus, like the Superman line, I think Bendis is hunkering down for a while. He says as much in his latest podcast interview, so by the time he moves on, there's gonna be possible miles of establishment. And Jon, firmly established as Superman's son and heir, remains that tangible link back in a way neither Mon or even Kara function as.

But if teen Clark saw super kids flying in the future and stomping crime? Him flying in the present stomping crime makes more sense, right?

In a sense, yeah, but I'd say there's something to be said about the idea that he was just a guy that did good deeds that grew in scale and involvement, made it up as he went along, and he ushered in a new age. I think there's something equally--in not more fascinating and admirable to that idea. The fruits of this labor that he grew from this tiny seed coming back to him in the form of his brave and strong son, and a Legion of super kids all inspired by the example of his legacy makes a lot of sense to me. And it firmly plays to the idea of faith and hope inherent to Superman. It's starting a non-profit with nothing but gumption, drive, and faith, and then one day being seeing it become a household name, and seeing your kid turn out great because it turns out you didn't screw them up even when your life seemed like it would. Those two things your grew from the smallest of seeds coming back to say "thank you" is something pretty special and grand while being so very relatable, and I think this personifies that.

bro-fist!!<

Received and reciprocated!!

As with all things it'll come down to the execution and what it adds to the narrative, compared to what it takes away. And there is tons of great stuff in Jon being with the Legion. That part I am still all-in for. But, well you know me, I hold pre-Crisis elements as being pretty important, and I don't adjust to changes there very easily or willingly.

I hear, man. I really do. I guess the way I've been looking at it is that Bendis has been doing Pre-Crisis, but he's been remixing it and turning it into its own song.

But Bendis has done right by me so far, and I'm willing to see where he goes. I'm not convinced at all it'll be to my liking, but dude has earned some trust thus far.

Just you giving it at shot at all is all anyone can ask for, right?

And if it doesnt work out (by my subjective standards) then me and Sacred can bitch about it together.

Aww well, at least you'll have a buddy

[Ascended]

If Bendis puts as much elbow grease into really hammering this out as he did the Ultimate line, then I think it'll be in a much better place for more writers to 'get' it from the word go. Plus, like the Superman line, I think Bendis is hunkering down for a while. He says as much in his latest podcast interview, so by the time he moves on, there's gonna be possible miles of establishment. And Jon, firmly established as Superman's son and heir, remains that tangible link back in a way neither Mon or even Kara function as.

That's a good point, though expecting any kind of consistency from the Super-verse beyond a creative team or two? That's brave, good sir.

In a sense, yeah, but I'd say there's something to be said about the idea that he was just a guy that did good deeds that grew in scale and involvement, made it up as he went along, and he ushered in a new age. I think there's something equally--in not more fascinating and admirable to that idea. The fruits of this labor that he grew from this tiny seed coming back to him in the form of his brave and strong son, and a Legion of super kids all inspired by the example of his legacy makes a lot of sense to me. And it firmly plays to the idea of faith and hope inherent to Superman. It's starting a non-profit with nothing but gumption, drive, and faith, and then one day being seeing it become a household name, and seeing your kid turn out great because it turns out you didn't screw them up even when your life seemed like it would. Those two things your grew from the smallest of seeds coming back to say "thank you" is something pretty special and grand while being so very relatable, and I think this personifies that.

Oh, it's a totally beautiful idea, I agree. I get why you see the appeal here. And I think that also sorta plays to the kind of.....blue collar physicality/mentality.....we both love in Superman; that "hands on" build it up from scratch vibe (is that making sense? not sure if Im getting the sentiment across), and it has a lot of meta undertext that's fun to play with (potentially, anyway). I just happen to prefer the Legion's involvement; they're sort of the prime example/poster child for "Clark's life has always been crazy and extraordinary" and nothing captures the essence of that like spending your summers in distant, future galaxies.

I hear, man. I really do. I guess the way I've been looking at it is that Bendis has been doing Pre-Crisis, but he's been remixing it and turning it into its own song.

I actually agree, which is why this swerve caught me off guard. I had hoped for the Legion long before it became a certainty, but I didn't think Bendis would clear that out of Clark's history, I figured he'd just spin it back for Jon.

Aww well, at least you'll have a buddy

Oh yeah. We'll echo chamber the hell out of it.

[Kuwagaton]

I think the metaphor you've brought up has as great a successor as we could hope for (far better than the literal nothing of Post-crisis) in the idea that it's taking the idea of legacy that both Jon and the Legion represent, and it's combining them.

The switch was made from Superboy's legend as their guide to simply experiencing Superman in his own time. As they well might here. It gets kind of confusing, mostly because you also have to read the Legion books to understand as the changes weren't actually made in the Superman office retcons, but "nothing" is incorrect. Like, we're talking a Legion in issue 8 instead of 15 type deal. Dunno if Bendis as the Legion guy saw nothing... I tend to see reoccuring ideas (a Superman AND Superboy team for a Legion introduction) as a coincidence until confirmed, but it's a pretty strong one. I mean for a guy who came from Marvel and started with a 6 issue Man of Steel mini that transitioned into writing the two main titles.

But it's maybe weirder now that we're just a few years removed from the restored Legion history, the restored connection to Smallville Superboy, and the general Rebirth company line... and now it looks like another reboot. They sort of need one IMO but it's probably not a bad idea to have them on their own clock with Jon as an entry POV character.

[MeGrimlock420]

Event Leviathan #2 preview

https://www.cbr.com/event-leviathan-...tman-red-hood/

[Sam]

Event Leviathan #2 preview

https://www.cbr.com/event-leviathan-...tman-red-hood/

Green Arrow is still my guess, but maybe that's a bit too obvious.

[MeGrimlock420]

Green Arrow is still my guess, but maybe that's a bit too obvious.

I don't think it's Green Arrow. I think he would know Clark is Supes. Queen would've done more to Clark than just strap him with Kryptonite in the Leviathan Rising issue.

[Korath]

I don't think it's Green Arrow. I think he would know Clark is Supes. Queen would've done more to Clark than just strap him with Kryptonite in the Leviathan Rising issue.

That was all Talia's doing. Leviathan freed Clark and seemed almost privy to his dual identity (at least, I read his interaction with him as such) and tried to kill Talia because she antagonized Superman.

[Sam]

Exactly. There have been quite a few hints pointing to Queen both in the text and behind the scenes. Whether that’s because he’s the guy or because he’s a red herring, I don’t know, but something is definitely happening there.

Personally, I hope he’s just a red herring, cause DC so far has spent 2019 screwing with the other two members of my top 3 favorite DC characters, so really don’t want it to become 3 for 3.

[MeGrimlock420]

Naomi #6 preview

https://www.newsarama.com/45902-naomi-6-preview.html

[Jackalope89]

Event Leviathan #2 preview

https://www.cbr.com/event-leviathan-...tman-red-hood/

He even writes Jason Todd as Generic Character #3.