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  1. #3646
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    This is exactly it. Look, I’m not even saying that there won’t be anything good in the issue. There might be some lovely stuff in there. Who knows? But I’m very uncomfortable with the road to get here and I am very tired of Lois being used as a punching bag like this so that everyone can feel bad for Clark. Because this is what they ::always:: do. The DC Comics Twitter today did it as well.

    I’ve been married 10 years. Marriage ::is:. hard and it’s not always perfect. I’m the last person asking for some utopian view of marriage. But what I do know after a decade of marriage is that this is not how you depict a loving, equal relationship in a way that is fair to both parties.
    Thanks. What's so tiresome about all of this is that often it's because there is this assumption/recognition that Lois and Clark/Lois are iconic and loved that they feel messing with them is the only way to create buzz or put their fingerprint on the mythos. Everything about what Bendis has done comes across as an egotistical attempt to get attention and leave a lasting mark on the Superman mythos. It's exploitative, in my opinion, and I don't think it's served the characters well. The parts of his run that are good or entertaining are not related to or reliant on these factors either, like the new villains and new characters and the mystery/journalism element, so they could have been used to tell a compelling story without all of this other garbage.
    Last edited by misslane; 10-22-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #3647
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Thanks. What's so tiresome about all of this is that often it's because there is this assumption that Lois and Clark/Lois are iconic and loved that they feel messing with them is the only way to create buzz or put their fingerprint on the mythos. Everything about what Bendis has done comes across as an egotistical attempt to get attention and leave a lasting mark on the Superman mythos. It's exploitative, in my opinion
    Unfortunately that's part of the job though. Having them married again wasn't for much more than a repositioning of characters and to create as much of a hard line in the sand between one take and another. The same thing is true for Jon Kent even being a thing, right? It's in part a writer's job to exploit the characters and their situations to facilitate conflict and story. It's maybe hardest to swallow in comics sometimes due to the fact that none of the creators writing the characters today are the ones that made them, and they're only just an addition to a mountain of writers. But on top of that they're artist. I feel like anyone would be lying if they said they could take over a comic character without any intention at all of trying to leaving a run defining mark. Every run is, if we're honest, a soft reboot in a lot of ways. And part of that is functional because with all the big numbers in comics and trepidatious newcomers created by the new pop cultural climate, you sort of need a surface to latch onto and call your run more so than the creative team. They shared consciousness take of the character (the ideal we're all aware of via osmosis) needs to be taken into account and then either reinforced, subverted, or both while making long time fans feel like this some sort of continuation.

    It doesn't hit home for everyone, and that sucks, because it's always great to like things obvious, but that, like the above, is part of the job.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  3. #3648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    H
    We are not a minority
    Mh, technically speaking literally everyone who posts his/her opinion on this forum is a minority. In the sense that every single opinion here, no matter how vocal it is, has little or nothing to do with what the majority of the buyers think, and which IMHO nobody here knows for sure or can claim to be a representative of. I'd say that everyone here is only a representative of his or her own personal opinion and nothing else. And that opinion counts very little in the market.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  4. #3649
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    What's good about it? Ultimately, this is about a couple and a family who love each other and people who are supposed to be hopeful, kind, people who work together. I can't accept the way Bendis has approached the decision making of these characters.

    It doesn't seem logical to believe that leaving with Jor-El for a trek around the universe without his father—a father who disapproved of the decision—would be an effective and appropriate way to deal with Jon's issues. Even the idea that Jon would be so uniquely troubled makes little sense. If rumors are to be believed, it doesn't seem sensible to make Lois/Superman the public relationship for anyone's sake. It puts Lois in incredible danger to be seen as Superman's beloved, and it seems more likely to blow up their anonymity as a family and make them more of a target for threats and scrutiny. Worse, if Lois has already started writing her book, she has decided on this move without consulting her husband about it. All the while, she's absent from the books and the mystery is used to create negative gossip and controversy about her in the real world and in the fictional world, and as usual painting Clark as the victim in all of this while she gets very little point of view.

    Even if we can say that ultimately the status quo change was wise, I don't think that this was the best way to handle it. Having Lois and Clark work together as a team and working things out as a family with truth and hope as their guides feels more in the spirit of Superman than the contrived, out of character, trashiness that Bendis has brought to the books.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I'm struggling too. With Jon, if his parents are publicly Lois and Superman, that puts his mom in danger and makes him more of a celebrity. I think it would also make it harder to believe that Clark and Jon Kent aren't Superman and Superboy, which would only make having some privacy and living any semblance of a normal life more difficult. I know Bendis likes to say that they all need to face that they're not a normal family, but I think they always knew that. The idea in the Superman books was always that balance was key between public/private, alien/human, superhero/civilian hero. Some normal is good for them.

    So, what happens here? Does Jon continue to live a double life as Superboy and Jon Kent, making Jon have to deal with the same pity and controversy as Clark currently is at work over Lois loving and being married to Superman with their own son, Superboy, instead of being her son and her being married to his father, Clark Kent? Or will he be outed entirely and therefore not get to live a civilian life as Jon Kent anymore? I don't see how either of those scenarios is helpful to him.
    These posts are spot on, and I wish that level of thought had been put into the stories.

  5. #3650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    How do you figure? Are you under the impression that the few guys that post on this forum represent the majority of feelings? Because that’s absurd and you don’t really have any right to claim that.
    I was referring to people like Sacred who are opposed to the super-marriage.

    I'm sometimes annoyed by how "matter of fact" he sounds when he calls the marriage stale or that he hates Jon, but I know that opinion isn't shared by a majority, so I call it more a preference than an opinion

    That said, Lois and Clark need to have ups and downs in their relationship...so long as those struggles make sense, and I think Bendis handling things the way he has makes sense given the kind of occupation Lois has as a renowned reporter working with what she has in front of her...she's been exposed to a larger universe now, her husband's universe, and that requires a bit of navigation to make sure he can carry on with his mission of upholding truth and justice. Bendis has said there are things Lois knows that Clark doesn't, and possibly can't know about. She's always made it clear, even to Clark, her biggest obligation is to the truth and the bigger picture. There are things bigger than her husband and her family and she 's now taken on that responsibility, if anything she's sharing the kind of weight Clark puts on his shoulders as Superman.

    This amount of negativity towards Bendis comes from not just impatience, but a desire to see the Kents continually domesticated, and in drama, that is a foundation that can only stand for so long. I disagree with Sacred that it only took a year for that foundation to collapse, but every now and then, you need it to wibble and wobble, so long as it stands firm again by the end of the journey ready for the next wibble and wobble.

    Some relationships can go on being positive forever with minimal shake-up if they're in a place where that can be tolerated and doesn't pose a threat to long-term buisness (Peter and MJ in the ASM newspaper strip), but in a competitive market, you need to put the characters through some kind of struggle to remind people what time of year or month it is, otherwise you feel like it's Groundhog day.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 10-23-2018 at 03:53 AM.

  6. #3651
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    . Everything about what Bendis has done comes across as an egotistical attempt to get attention and leave a lasting mark on the Superman mythos.
    Wasn't that pretty much obvious from the get go though ?
    • MY oc killed Krypton
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  7. #3652
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I was referring to people like Sacred who are opposed to the super-marriage.

    I'm sometimes annoyed by how "matter of fact" he sounds when he calls the marriage stale or that he hates Jon, but I know that opinion isn't shared by a majority, so I call it more a preference than an opinion
    And I still don't get why. When I'm asked a question and I answer their question, its a 100% given that what I'm offering is my opinion. I will sound matter of fact in my opinion because its what I believe, just like anyone else will. I'm not going to be obnoxious or trollish about it but I'm also not going to walk on eggshells about it, especially when specifically asked a question to which such an answer is completely relevant to the discussion. I didn't just rip on the marriage unprovoked, I was asked why I was interested in shakeups to it. And again for the record by and large you don't know what opinions are shared by the majority. Neither do I. No one does. Superman's a gigantic property of tons of incarnations and ideas throughout the years. None of us have empirical evidence one way or another about what are majority/minority opinions about a lot of aspects outside of the very most basic. Hell not even some of that anymore, as fans can't even seem to agree on something so simple as powerset these days.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-23-2018 at 08:22 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  8. #3653
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Right and frankly, there's no reason for anyone to throw your opinion under the bus when addressing someone else.

    I'm on the fence myself about all this but I don't see why we can't be more aware of the respect we exhibit for differing opinions.

  9. #3654
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truman Burbank View Post
    These posts are spot on, and I wish that level of thought had been put into the stories.
    Glad I'm not the only one recoiling from what's going on in the Super comics in regards to the family and everything.

    And before someone says it, I never read Bendis' Marvel stuff, good or bad. I gave it a fair chance, to see what he would write. And so far, not liking it. Others put it far better than I can. But since Bendis took over, and particularly since he shipped Lois and Jon out, it just felt all kinds of off for the series.

  10. #3655
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't doubt a large margin of people, whether they ended up liking it or not, gave it a fair chance over not. I'm the same as you just coming away with a different conclusion. In my time reading comics I maybe had ever read a grand total of 2-3 works of Bendis before, as I had read a couple of issues of Ultimate Spider-Man a long time ago. That was basically all I knew of him. I missed that whole train because by and large I had become divorced from Marvel well before he ever became a name.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  11. #3656
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    Sorry Sacred.

    I'll be glad when this issue's out and we can know for certain what Bendis' goal is with resetting/redefining Lois and Clark.

  12. #3657
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    As always no worries, I wasn't annoyed myself, I just don't like the idea that my posts might annoy others when they're certainly not intended to. Lots of marriage fans here and I respect 'em all and enjoy conversation with all of you. When I get colorful in my personal descriptions in how I see it portrayed, that's just for me, not meant to purposefully rile up a fan.

    I'd only do that to Injustice fans.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-23-2018 at 08:56 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  13. #3658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    As always no worries, I wasn't annoyed myself, I just don't like the idea that my posts might annoy others when they're certainly not intended to. Lots of marriage fans here and I respect 'em all and enjoy conversation with all of you.
    I ought to be made of tougher skin on here, there's always going to be hardened opinions, laced with a hint of passion. Maybe I'm just too protective of my own preferences.

  14. #3659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Right and frankly, there's no reason for anyone to throw your opinion under the bus when addressing someone else.

    I'm on the fence myself about all this but I don't see why we can't be more aware of the respect we exhibit for differing opinions.
    Well, I speak for myself, but without a doubt the amount of toxicity which I see in some posts on this forum since Bendis came on board is simply unbearable (I find some opinions very hard to read even if - generally speaking - I am not soft in my criticism myself). The impression I get is that a lot of reasonable fans are forced to spend way more time in explaining why some arguments simply don't have a solid basis rather than speaking about the stories.

    A lot of people is doing their best to make some of the worst stereotypes about fandom a reality.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  15. #3660
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I ought to be made of tougher skin on here, there's always going to be hardened opinions, laced with a hint of passion. Maybe I'm just too protective of my own preferences.
    Would you believe that on the old DC forums, I was on the other side of these discussions? I was kinda getting bored back then, but at the same time I wasn't in a place of even entertaining retcons or anything like that as I was still mostly a post-Crisis frame of mind guy. But yep, at one time I was total pro-marriage until I ripped off my Clois shirt and revealed I was a member of the NWO all along!
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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