Official : Bendis gets both books

[manwhohaseverything]

He's different now because he's in a vastly different place in his life, that does not preclude him having a golden age like beginning. This type of thing does happen, even in real life. Like Nelson Mandela for instance he was a different man after he left prison than the one who went in. While his methodology evolved, the ultimate goal remained the same. The golden age past should be a part of any/every version of Superman. It's his history. The elder statesman Mandela would not be the man people know today without the armed struggle part of his life. Every bit of experience informs the whole, isn't that the whole point of DC now singing "everything happened"? For this fan at least, everything did happen.

Look, i don't think superman would evolve into a guy who wants to protect his image or celebrity-esque guy. I don't think the guy would be living in a huge apartment in the middle of the city like that either. I mean, i saw no indication of the guy owning anything. I mean, superman was the focus.As for punching people, well superman is very much still about that. He just doesn't bully back cause character can't come off less than perfect. It has nothing to do with ethics, morality , changing times, need of the hour.. Etc.I mean, if the character was anything like a guy with same conviction seeing the futility of violence deciding against it. I would have applauded him. It ain't, the character comes of like an image conscious dude who would bow before any kind of authority. Goldenage superman would have no problem flipping authorities off, even normal people that behave like jerks... Etc. goldenage superman wouldn't want to be tied to some organisation st the hips and their 'policies'.The guy hates chains. He would only work with them, on his own terms. He would rather work on the ground with people.

Look, i just can't picture goldenage superman evolving into this superman. He would have either been killed in a worst case scenario with k-metal (he who takes up a sword, dies by it). Best case, he would havye evolved into something like this.

He would have been a guy who has seen some **** and gone through hell. He wouldn't be stereotypical naive farmboy. Period. But, that's just me.Goldenage Superman fought for an ideal. Not for glory, power, vengeance or even acceptance. There is a fine line between an idealist and being a boyscout . The only times, i have see this superman get pissed was regarding his kid and because him being sidestepped by the people for caricature of 90's antiheroes. Its kinda funny, i imagined bruce being someone that becomes like commissioner Gordon or his father(more like gordon. He is batman's first support) . Yet, superman is the one who became that.

[rpmaluki]

I think your view of this Superman is distorted, you have him doing things that he's not actually doing just because he's not doing what you want him to do. To each his own.

[Konja7]

I agree about keeping it during Reborn as something that happens much earlier in his career, that ends amicably because they are simply not Steve or Lois. It wouldn't change how things are now, honestly. I expected N52 to "end" with the current status quo anyway because they'd made it clear at the start that Clark did have feelings for Lois (he never acted on because she was emotionally attached to someone else, just swap this Jonathan-Nobody for Superman) before he got with Diana but DC seemed desperate to throw the baby out with the bath water and as a result we've somehow lost the opportunity of solidify that golden age-like beginning as part of this Superman's career. I love that he starts off brash and impetuous but as the years pass he learns not every thing is solved with his fists even if he really gets good in that department.

Do we even have a lock in what the background is for this Superman?

Why Superman relationship with Diana will be restored, while Lois was in love with Superman image (instead of her New52 boyfriend)?

I mean, that seems too sad for Lois. At least, allow her to have her New52 boyfriend during that time.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think your view of this Superman is distorted, you have him doing things that he's not actually doing just because he's not doing what you want him to do. To each his own.

Why? The sword is just a metaphor for violence. As for everything else, it's pretty spot on. The guy is written to be safe. His portrayals have naive written all over it, instead of conviction or resolve.The guy fights cause his parents(from both sides) told him too. Sheesh!

[Vordan]

Why Superman relationship with Diana will be restored, while Lois was in love with Superman image (instead of her New52 boyfriend)?

I mean, that seems too sad for Lois. At least, allow her to have her New52 boyfriend during that time.

Oh man what was that guys name again? They never even broke Lois and him up, he just vanished I thought that was amusing. It was blatantly obvious he was just there to keep Clark and Lois apart and had no purpose beyond that.

[Nelliebly]

I think recontextualizing their relationship to being early in Clark's career as a superhero makes sense. He was frustrated with how Lois loved Kal but seemed to overlook Clark and met an equal in Diana who happened to be pretty damn groovy herself. Perhaps things weren't working quite so well with Steve at the time. They give a shot, doesn't last and they split as friends.

I don't think Reborn needed to erase it, but given the fanfare Rebirth got and how the New 52 Superman had a bad reputation, they really wanted to slam dunk "we're sorry, it's going to be what you like now" by erasing him from existence. Don't get me wrong, more of New 52 Supes was bad than good in my reading, but even I can see the value of shuffling the finer points of his adventures into "post Golden Age, pre the usual status quo" of his timeline. Obviously you lose stuff like Truth, but I dunno. Reading that the relationship happened again isn't something that can't work.

I have no problem with the relationship being part of history but your recount of Lois here is more than a little unfair.

There was little to no evidence even in the new 52 that Lois “loved Kal but seemed to overlook Clark.” If anything, there were a lot of issues that showed explicitly that Lois tried to reach out to CLARK but he was so deep in his own head that he pushed her away. He literally pushed her into the arms of Jonathan in the issues written by Andy Diggle.

In 2020 I really hope we can understand that the idea that Lois is to blame for Clark himself not being honest with her about how he feels is sexist and unfair. It is not on Lois to take blame for Clark not willing to be honest about how he feels about her and who he is. She was very much there and he pushed her away. The fact that the narrative and/or fandom continues to attempt to frame that as anyway her fault is absolutely sexist.

Also Lois is and always has been Clark’s equal just as much as Wonder Woman is and any narrative that frames it as otherwise is, again, problematic and sexist.

The real issue here isn’t that Superman and Wonder Woman dated at one point and it just didn’t work out. That’s fine. The issue is that the entire rollout of the relationship and the way it was executed was done in such an insulting way that led to this exact kind of crapping on Lois and that is what made it something that couldn’t be repaired. Under better writers they could have dated and it would not have had to be erased as it was. But the level of misogyny was so ridiculous and heavily criticized—the entire way they got together literally rooted in this “no one understands me” BS when Lois and Steve were literally :ushed:: away by disingenuous characterization that made that entire plot not salvageable. That’s the issue.

There comes a point where you’ve messed up too much to salvage a plot line. Where all you can do is try and fix it. The way they treated Lois around the entire rollout of that relationship was unforgivable and, trust me, they KNOW it. They know. They were never going to live down the criticism over how they treated Lois in the new 52. Which is why they did what they did. Again, better writers could have done this better from the start without treating Lois so poorly but that’s not what happened.

[Sacred Knight]

Why Superman relationship with Diana will be restored, while Lois was in love with Superman image (instead of her New52 boyfriend)?

I mean, that seems too sad for Lois. At least, allow her to have her New52 boyfriend during that time.

They should probably just keep it within Earth 52. Its not like it won't be just played as a meaningless stepping stone to Lois in this continuity anyway so there's really no point. If I trusted them to play it out that they had a meaningful relationship in the past with true feelings that just ended as lots of real relationships can do, sure why not. But they wouldn't. It would just be "Yeah we dated once but I knew it was Lois all along durrr".

Not to say it wasn't somewhat satisfying to see it acknowledged and not ignored as an albatross as has been edict for four years now.

[lotchj]

They should probably just keep it within Earth 52. Its not like it won't be just played as a meaningless stepping stone to Lois in this continuity anyway so there's really no point. If I trusted them to play it out that they had a meaningful relationship in the past with true feelings that just ended as lots of real relationships can do, sure why not. But they wouldn't. It would just be "Yeah we dated once but I knew it was Lois all along durrr".

Not to say it wasn't somewhat satisfying to see it acknowledged and not ignored as an albatross as has been edict for four years now.

I agree!! What's the point!!

[lotchj]

I don't see the point of restoring their relationship! Superman will always be with Lois Lane!! Dc and the fans will never let superman be with anyone but Lois Lane! That was proven in the New 52, in how poorly their relationship was handled!! I always thought it was odd that WW and SM never appeared as a couple in WW solo comic during Azz run, SM was never a part of her world in her solo comic even those he was suppose be her love interest!! But she was a part of his world in all of SM comics! I always wondered just how invested Dc was in their relationship?? That question was answered with how quickly dc wiped out their relationship with the rebirth reboot!! I was and still is a big fan of SM and WW being together as a couple!! But seeing how poorly their relationship was written in the new 52!! It was really a waste of time, they just wanted superman with Lois anyway! All you would read is when is SM and Lois going to get together or when is SM and WW going to break up, I forget the writer name that stated their relationship would end badly! Dc comic and the writers proved they were not invested in their relationship!! Their relationship was doomed to fail from the start!!

[Robanker]

I have no problem with the relationship being part of history but your recount of Lois here is more than a little unfair.

There was little to no evidence even in the new 52 that Lois “loved Kal but seemed to overlook Clark.” If anything, there were a lot of issues that showed explicitly that Lois tried to reach out to CLARK but he was so deep in his own head that he pushed her away. He literally pushed her into the arms of Jonathan in the issues written by Andy Diggle.

In 2020 I really hope we can understand that the idea that Lois is to blame for Clark himself not being honest with her about how he feels is sexist and unfair. It is not on Lois to take blame for Clark not willing to be honest about how he feels about her and who he is. She was very much there and he pushed her away. The fact that the narrative and/or fandom continues to attempt to frame that as anyway her fault is absolutely sexist.

Also Lois is and always has been Clark’s equal just as much as Wonder Woman is and any narrative that frames it as otherwise is, again, problematic and sexist.

The real issue here isn’t that Superman and Wonder Woman dated at one point and it just didn’t work out. That’s fine. The issue is that the entire rollout of the relationship and the way it was executed was done in such an insulting way that led to this exact kind of crapping on Lois and that is what made it something that couldn’t be repaired. Under better writers they could have dated and it would not have had to be erased as it was. But the level of misogyny was so ridiculous and heavily criticized—the entire way they got together literally rooted in this “no one understands me” BS when Lois and Steve were literally :ushed:: away by disingenuous characterization that made that entire plot not salvageable. That’s the issue.

There comes a point where you’ve messed up too much to salvage a plot line. Where all you can do is try and fix it. The way they treated Lois around the entire rollout of that relationship was unforgivable and, trust me, they KNOW it. They know. They were never going to live down the criticism over how they treated Lois in the new 52. Which is why they did what they did. Again, better writers could have done this better from the start without treating Lois so poorly but that’s not what happened.

I adore Lois, but in most incarnations once Superman is on the scene, she doesn't notice Clark in that light for a while; she very clearly has a crush on Superman, one he reciprocates so it's easy to forgive her for overlooking the man next to her.

I can see that time being frustrating to Clark and Diana appearing as a more viable option for him to pursue in that avenue. At the end of the day, they're both great women but Lois is the one woman Clark admires, loves and respects most and will naturally end up with her. That doesn't mean the triangle can't present problems for him, especially since she's usually the first time he has to deal with balancing romance with the secret ID. With Lana, he was just himself but now he's also Superman and he's not good at that wrinkle.

The New 52 itself, however, was not a good time for our favorite reporter.

I'm not casting aspersions to any character, nor am I sticking to any one continuity. For what it's worth, I don't think it's fair to blame Lois either. Superman is an extension of Clark and she (as with the rest of the world) is caught between Clark separating those two parts of himself and compartmentalizing his life. He is the one going out of his way to pseudo test Lois, if anything it's on him. It seems born of the insecurity he sometimes has with respect to the world's perception of him as an ideal instead of a man. Blaming Lois for it is wrong, but if we're speaking from Clark's perspective, yeah. He's going to wonder if she ever loves him for himself and perhaps Diana, who wouldn't be impressed by his powers since they're normal to him, would seem like an easier path to pursue.

I'm not saying it's right, but Clark's human in all ways but literal. Young men make a lot of mistakes, especially in love. I think those wrinkles make their love story more fun to read and the end result of marriage and Jonathan much stronger because of it.

We can't pretend the classic triangle isn't problematic because it's very easy to read it as Superman gaslighting Lois until he married her, which is abusive as all hell. Much like how people read Lois having dated Luthor as confirmation that she's into power. It can go ugly quickly, but for them to really work, there does need to be conflict on the way to OTP and I think that forms very naturally in Clark struggling with the secret ID and possibly dating Wonder Woman early on.

For my money? After a short period of being starstruck, Lois realizes he's Clark and just needs to prove it. She's the world's best reporter, she can't be satisfied without sticking the story to him. The triangle becomes a game of cat and mouse between them until Clark is comfortable to finally tell her. I mapped it out in my head on a long trip once and I swear it works.

[Superlad93]

To be perfectly fair to Lois, in those incarnations where Lois overlooks Clark she A) has no obligation to offer herself up to him just because he has a crush he isn't acting upon and B) Clark is *actively* doing literally everything in his power to create such a contrasting version of himself that he couldn't be mistaken for the more true version of himself, Superman. So, it kind of boggles the mind what Clark is even going for. "gosh, I sure wish Lois would fall in love with literally the most stark antithesis of who I am that I can come up with. That sure would be swell".

But in versions where Clark Kent as a persona is not too disingenuous, but more of a taking off of the luster that comes with Superman (in the sense that Clark is just as thoughtful, kind, and brave as Superman, but just in different ways that don't come with as much attention and scale) , then she's shown being attracted to him. The take away some people have is to call her shallow for not liking the meek guy over there, but that's totally not it (and also still not her obligation to do). It comes off more that she has a sixth sense for bull, and Clark operating with a plastic wrap buffer that is his antithesis and yet still expecting to find legitimate companionship with with this woman is not a point of endearment in his favor. It's an obstacle to overcome.

If those versions of Clark that present the falsehood have anything to be frustrated about it should be their cowardice. And I don't say that as a knock believe it or not, but rather as a way of pointing out a character arc. But Clark Kent The Falsehood as presented to Lois is a safety blanket.

[Konja7]

I adore Lois, but in most incarnations once Superman is on the scene, she doesn't notice Clark in that light for a while; she very clearly has a crush on Superman, one he reciprocates so it's easy to forgive her for overlooking the man next to her.

I can see that time being frustrating to Clark and Diana appearing as a more viable option for him to pursue in that avenue. At the end of the day, they're both great women but Lois is the one woman Clark admires, loves and respects most and will naturally end up with her. That doesn't mean the triangle can't present problems for him, especially since she's usually the first time he has to deal with balancing romance with the secret ID. With Lana, he was just himself but now he's also Superman and he's not good at that wrinkle.

The New 52 itself, however, was not a good time for our favorite reporter.

I'm not casting aspersions to any character, nor am I sticking to any one continuity. For what it's worth, I don't think it's fair to blame Lois either. Superman is an extension of Clark and she (as with the rest of the world) is caught between Clark separating those two parts of himself and compartmentalizing his life. He is the one going out of his way to pseudo test Lois, if anything it's on him. It seems born of the insecurity he sometimes has with respect to the world's perception of him as an ideal instead of a man. Blaming Lois for it is wrong, but if we're speaking from Clark's perspective, yeah. He's going to wonder if she ever loves him for himself and perhaps Diana, who wouldn't be impressed by his powers since they're normal to him, would seem like an easier path to pursue.

I'm not saying it's right, but Clark's human in all ways but literal. Young men make a lot of mistakes, especially in love. I think those wrinkles make their love story more fun to read and the end result of marriage and Jonathan much stronger because of it.

We can't pretend the classic triangle isn't problematic because it's very easy to read it as Superman gaslighting Lois until he married her, which is abusive as all hell. Much like how people read Lois having dated Luthor as confirmation that she's into power. It can go ugly quickly, but for them to really work, there does need to be conflict on the way to OTP and I think that forms very naturally in Clark struggling with the secret ID and possibly dating Wonder Woman early on.

For my money? After a short period of being starstruck, Lois realizes he's Clark and just needs to prove it. She's the world's best reporter, she can't be satisfied without sticking the story to him. The triangle becomes a game of cat and mouse between them until Clark is comfortable to finally tell her. I mapped it out in my head on a long trip once and I swear it works.

I like Wonder Woman, so I don't want her to be the "mistake" to make more funny the relationship of Clark and Lois. In fact, I prefer Clark doesn't use other women to escape from her feelings towards Lois.

Honestly, if Clark is in a romantic relationship with another woman, I prefer Lois to not be in love with Superman (I would like that Lois has her own romantic relationship in that situation).

[Robanker]

I like Wonder Woman, so I don't want her to be the "mistake" to make more funny the relationship of Clark and Lois. In fact, I prefer Clark doesn't use other women to escape from her feelings towars Lois.

Honestly, if Clark is in a romantic relationship with another woman, I prefer Lois to not be in love with Superman (I would like that Lois has her own romantic relationship).

Diana isn't a mistake. Creating such a complicated love triangle is a mistake on Clark's part. I didn't word that well.

[Konja7]

Diana isn't a mistake. Creating such a complicated love triangle is a mistake on Clark's part. I didn't word that well.

I understand your point, but I still don't want Diana to be part of Clark mistake.

[Robanker]

I understand your point, but I still don't want Diana to be part of Clark mistake.

He isn't any more than he is her mistake. In my mind, they're two people who ultimately decided they work better as friends, but without regrets. They just realized their hearts wanted other people and that was okay. Doesn't mean their time together was a mistake. I'm sure they both enjoyed it, hell if they were together they probably would be happy. Both are great people.