Official : Bendis gets both books

[Superlad93]

The difference is when a shonen does time skip.It is not just the main character that gets aged up. All the others get aged up.The kid hero,Most oftenly does not lose what makes them endearing to his fan.Sure he becomes stronger, sometimes more mature.He reaches a level in that is similar to the mentor figure(kakashi,rayleigh..etc).Some dynamics, change but his goal will be the same.

None of that is always true. Shounen manga have a wide assortment of ways to age their characters independent of other characters. For example Ichigo from Bleach goes through a personal time skip when he learns the final getsuga tenshou with his dad. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber/The Room of Spirit and Time made it so Gohan and Trunks spent years with their fathers while only a day or so pass for everyone else. Gohan even comes out physically changed because of it. For both characters that was the longest one on one time they've ever spent with their fathers up till that point. That amount of time actually leads to Vegeta having maybe the biggest bit of character growth till that point: fight on behalf of Trunks after Cell kills him. But only days before that showdown Vegeta watches the moth of his child and his son get shot down by 20, and he doesn't lift a finger (Gohan saves them). That's character development off screen based on the time he spent getting to know Trunks. If future Trunks would've gotten killed at any point before that, I doubt he'd care all that much.

And in terms of personality, that's usually left up to what the author choosing. They can either be basically the same person like Naruto, or they can be closer to Attack On Titan's Eren Jaeger who changes in not only skill but drastically in personality. Or they can be somewhere in the middle like Vegeta and how he grows to show affection for his son, but we don't see how he got there on screen, however we can logically guess what lead to it (spends time with him in the chamber).

Speaking just in terms of the physical, Goku's original time skip after training with God/Kami shares quite a few parallels with Jon's time skip. In terms of character design, Goku changes the most drastically out of everyone of his friends. The same time passed for all of them, but Goku's body was hitting puberty. And as far as I've found out, there were a few editors who were unsure about the physical changes to Goku Toriyama wanted to make. They thought he's be stripped of his physical marketability and cuteness, and also lose the charm of the small assuming fighter beating giants. Sound familiar? Toriyama's editors wanted to keep Goku looking something similar to the ageless and cute Arale for max marketability, but Toriyama wanted to try something a bit new with his character.

And, again, it should be stressed that we don't know what Jon's personality will be like. At the very least we know that he's very much willing to still ask his dad for help when he's in over his head.

[Armor of God]

I think all the solicits sound pretty good.

I'm not sold on this whole thing with Jon. But until it actually happens I'm keeping an open mind. I don't even know what *is* happening with Jon yet, yknow? And Bendis has done right by me so far, so I'm willing to see where this goes. For all I know, I'll enjoy it more than anything Jon has done yet.

Super Sons looks promising, as always. So even if Bendis ends up disappointing, I at least still have this issue for "original version" Jon.

Young Justice barely mentioned Conner but who cares? He's back and I'm still just riding that high right now.

My only real sticking point is that Nightwing doesn't appear to be involved in this spy story, and there's every possible reason for him to be. Grayson dealt with Leviathan and Spyral and has tons of experience dealing with other spy networks and secret societies, he's (supposed to be) tight with Clark, he's a skilled detective. Nightwing should, by rights, be here for this. And I have very little faith that he'll be used at all. I don't know what Bendis' opinions on Nightwing are, but DC seems intent on driving Nightwing into the dirt and probably wouldn't allow him to be in a story that looked even halfway good. However, the cover with Jimmy is almost enough to make up for this massive oversight; that image is classic.

Lets be honest here, if we're going by logic and history then its Batman, Damian and Dick who should be part of this event, not Superman and his family. Leviathan is at core the story of Damian's mother killing him, of her creating an entity to match Batman because thats the only way Batman would ever pay full attention to Talia.

[Yoda]

Why *would* he? It's very clear that Hal is a co-worker, not a friend.

I get that to a certain extent, but the reaction he had to Hal's question is a little extreme given the facts as he knew them at that point in the story. They were a long distance phone call away at that point. And I think describing the core 7 of the JLA as co-workers is underselling the relationship a little. Hal might not be Batman, but they are more than just people who run into each other in the cafe.

Now, I totally understand your point about the characters not revealing their motivations to the reader. That can be annoying as hell and I'm annoyed along with a lot of us here. I want to know what's going on! But this is just a little mystery meant to keep us guessing. Its not the huge deal people are making it out to be, and so far nothing Bendis has done is actually out of character. There's actually nothing new happening here at all; Bendis is just spinning the concepts a little differently and mixing them together in a slightly different shape. But every idea in play has already been done in the Superverse before.

Again, I agree. One review characterized things as rearranging the elements of the story without breaking anything. And while Jon's changes may "break" the character for some people, there isn't anything Bendis has done that has irrevocably altered any elements of the characters.

I just want to be clear; I got no problem with any fan who isn't enjoying the books on their own merits, or who has concerns about what the new status quo going forward might be. I'm not sure if I'm going to like where things end up yet. But there's a difference between that and claiming that this run is doing things it isn't (or hasn't yet at least) just because someone has an ax to grind with the author, or out of general suspicion.

I actually think I am going to like status quo going forward more than the "Superfamily" status quo of the last couple of years. And I generally have been really pleased with Man of Steel, Action, and Superman so far. I mean, my interest and excitement is enough that I sought out this forum again after not posting since the big restart years ago. At the same time, I think given the reaction to Action 1004 in particular with the negative interpretations of the status and motivations of Lois, it was probably the first serious misfire of Bendis's run. The stuff he hasn't done, i.e. set up the mystery Lois is working on or the stakes of the story she has to write, actively undermined his stated intent to have it be a positive statement on their relationship. He didn't intend for their to be questions about their relationship status beyond them working out a new balance. Yet half the reviews and articles written about the issue interpreted it as a break, the first step towards a divorce, or an excuse to shelve Lois from the ongoing stories.

Again, I actually think the new status quo will be great for both Lois as a character and the stories going forward! But the execution was lacking.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think Jon might have a less tolerant/innocent outlook. He still wants to be a hero and he still has his parent's values but he's more impatient/judgemental towards. Growing up with Jor-el would have made him more arrogant mixed in with teenage angst.

Jon doesn't really blame his dad for it or feel like his dad abandoned him. Clark just feels like he missed out on 5-6 years of his son's life and can't adequately help him through this. (5-6 years is a guestimate).

[manwhohaseverything]

None of that is always true. Shounen manga have a wide assortment of ways to age their characters independent of other characters. For example Ichigo from Bleach goes through a personal time skip when he learns the final getsuga tenshou with his dad. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber/The Room of Spirit and Time made it so Gohan and Trunks spent years with their fathers while only a day or so pass for everyone else. Gohan even comes out physically changed because of it. For both characters that was the longest one on one time they've ever spent with their fathers up till that point. That amount of time actually leads to Vegeta having maybe the biggest bit of character growth till that point: fight on behalf of Trunks after Cell kills him. But only days before that showdown Vegeta watches the moth of his child and his son get shot down by 20, and he doesn't lift a finger (Gohan saves them). That's character development off screen based on the time he spent getting to know Trunks. If future Trunks would've gotten killed at any point before that, I doubt he'd care all that much.

In dbz,hyperbolic time chamber is not a time skip,It is entirely different.It is just a plot device.Sure,Gohan came out a bit muscular,taller and But largley the same character,personality..etc.Fighting and killing was not his thing.It took android 16 to change that,to make him go all out.Same with Ichigo.The only thing that changed was a little bit of height and hair length(which changed back).These physical changes are trivial for normal audience.Their(Gohan,Ichigo) relationships with outside world stayed largely stayed the same.And,I am not talking about whether Jon will be ultimatley changed or not.I am saying that,the marketing,the cover..etc suggests a change in personality and tone in story. I will talk about the story when it is released.

And in terms of personality, that's usually left up to what the author choosing. They can either be basically the same person like Naruto, or they can be closer to Attack On Titan's Eren Jaeger who changes in not only skill but drastically in personality. Or they can be somewhere in the middle like Vegeta and how he grows to show affection for his son, but we don't see how he got there on screen, however we can logically guess what lead to it (spends time with him in the chamber).

Attack on titans,does have less typical shonen flavours.It is only called a shonen because it is published in a shonen magazine.Some say,it feels more like seinen.Something like berserk.Vegeta has always had this selfish love/pride for his son,it has parallel with his father.It just became more nuanced,but it did not change his or trunks relation with outside world like Goku,Gohan or even Bulma .The core characterstics of the characters remained same with some development.Vegeta was still prideful,Goku was still fight Obsessed,Gohan still thought his mentors were superior to him after,he came out.And payoffs or realisation to audience that these changes for Vegeta and Gohan happened during Cell tournament arc.Gohan and Vegeta were made to realise the changes during tournament by outside forces like goku(making gohan realise he had better potential),android 16(making gohan go all out),Cell(by attacking Trunks,I believe don't remember).It was visible.Here it feels like,Developments are skipped.

But my hero,on the other hand, is typical shonen.Has many of it's tropes.Deku won't become someone like Enji Todoroki or even bakugo after a time skip.He might start becoming a bit like all might(grow confidence).He would still be Deku-muttering stuff,writing stuff in his book..etc

[Jackalope89]

None of that is always true. Shounen manga have a wide assortment of ways to age their characters independent of other characters. For example Ichigo from Bleach goes through a personal time skip when he learns the final getsuga tenshou with his dad. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber/The Room of Spirit and Time made it so Gohan and Trunks spent years with their fathers while only a day or so pass for everyone else. Gohan even comes out physically changed because of it. For both characters that was the longest one on one time they've ever spent with their fathers up till that point. That amount of time actually leads to Vegeta having maybe the biggest bit of character growth till that point: fight on behalf of Trunks after Cell kills him. But only days before that showdown Vegeta watches the moth of his child and his son get shot down by 20, and he doesn't lift a finger (Gohan saves them). That's character development off screen based on the time he spent getting to know Trunks. If future Trunks would've gotten killed at any point before that, I doubt he'd care all that much.

They spent a year in there, and it at least has been explained at what happens in the Room of Spirit and Time. Jon though, goes to space as a 10 year old, and returns a few months later in his mid-teens. That's pretty significant. Plus, it wasn't like little Gohan was suddenly left with say, a Bardock after his mysterious return and slaughtering countless people. Gohan trained with Goku, spending real time with him for the first time since before Raditz showed up. But even after, Gohan was basically more muscular than before. And a Super Saiyan. Whereas Future Trunks was already 17, and was still largely the same when he emerged. Just stronger with longer hair. And for Vegeta, it wasn't until the Cell Games themselves, after his first encounter with Perfect Cell, that he began to actually change.

And in terms of personality, that's usually left up to what the author choosing. They can either be basically the same person like Naruto, or they can be closer to Attack On Titan's Eren Jaeger who changes in not only skill but drastically in personality. Or they can be somewhere in the middle like Vegeta and how he grows to show affection for his son, but we don't see how he got there on screen, however we can logically guess what lead to it (spends time with him in the chamber).

Vegeta caring for his son is part of his long developing character development over the course of DBZ.

Speaking just in terms of the physical, Goku's original time skip after training with God/Kami shares quite a few parallels with Jon's time skip. In terms of character design, Goku changes the most drastically out of everyone of his friends. The same time passed for all of them, but Goku's body was hitting puberty. And as far as I've found out, there were a few editors who were unsure about the physical changes to Goku Toriyama wanted to make. They thought he's be stripped of his physical marketability and cuteness, and also lose the charm of the small assuming fighter beating giants. Sound familiar? Toriyama's editors wanted to keep Goku looking something similar to the ageless and cute Arale for max marketability, but Toriyama wanted to try something a bit new with his character.

Except, everyone else also aged up with Goku. Goku was just the last to his (late) growth spurt.

And, again, it should be stressed that we don't know what Jon's personality will be like. At the very least we know that he's very much willing to still ask his dad for help when he's in over his head.

The solicit itself said that Jon has changed quite a bit in a few months time. And even in Bendis' little flashbacks, he only ever shows Jon as being angsty or angry. The "happiest" he's ever been portrayed by Bendis is just before he gets shipped off into space where he's suddenly unsure of trusting his parents.

[Yoda]

And then Bendis made it clear at the end of the issue that there is no distance.

I agree, but at the same time it wouldn’t take much to spin that ending into the beginning of the end. He asks her not to let go of him, which is Clark asking her not to let go of their relationship. She responds she won’t, which I think Bendis meant to be taken as a positive statement that there is no distance. But the end result could easily be that she does. In fact it’s pretty much a trope that one or both partners on a “break” in a relationship “let go” of the relationship entirely.

I honestly don’t think that was his intent! But it’s not unreasonable to read it that way and plenty of people appear to have.

[Superlad93]

In dbz,hyperbolic time chamber is not a time skip.

Huh? By definition it's 100% a personalized time skip for whoever goes in there because they literally come out older and having experienced a large amount of time passed.

Their relationships with outside world stayed largely stayed the same.

Not true. Vegeta's relationship with Trunks changed to the point where fought Cell on behalf of Trunk's death. But before the time skip in the chamber Vegeta didn't even bat an eyelash at the mother of his son and his son having their car shot down in front of him. That's literally a relationship that changed in direct response to the time he spent with his son in the chamber. Time we as the reader didn't see.

Attack on titans,does have less typical shonen flavours.It is only called a shonen because it is published in a shonen magazine.Some say,it feels more like seinen.Something like berserk.

And I'd agree to an extent (a work that deliberately breaks or deconstructs the rules of its genre is still in said genre. It's just knowingly subverting ideas within it).

Vegeta has always had this selfish love/pride for his son

Up to that point (fighting Cell for Trunks) in Dragon Ball this is flat out not true. We don't even see Vegeta acknowledge Bulma or Trunks by that point, and when they are finally in the same scene together, her flying car is shot down by Android 20 and Vegeta doesn't lift a finger. Gohan is the one who saves them. That's not "love/pride" for neither Trunks nor Bulma. That's apathy. This only changes to love/pride AFTER the off screen time skip in the time chamber. That's just a fact.

Cell(by attacking Trunks,I believe don't remember).It was visible.Here it feels like,Developments are skipped.

Cell attacking Trunks wouldn't have mattered to him before the time chamber time skip, and we see an example of this when Bulma and baby Trunks are put into danger by Android 20, and Vegeta doesn't care. The development/lead up of him reaching a point where he cares for Trunks enough to fight for him is technically skipped and we get the culmination of that lead up.

My point is that

1. This is very similar to a time skip in a manga because as the reader you're only presented with the shocking physical advancements of the character (appearance and power), and you, as the reader, wonder what how much of their personality has changed or stayed the same. As the reader you have to read on to see how much of them has changed personality wise and how much has stayed the same. Again, Goku is a great example, because Toriyama's editors were scared that his cute marketability or the loss of the big guy vs little guy dynamic would never be given fair compensation, and they were scared of how readers would react. And all readers had to read through the manga step by step from that point forward to see how much of him was changed. And in truth, some of his was fundamentally changed while quite a bit stayed the same. He was more serious and clam, and he was apparently mature enough to get married, but the fundamentals of his personality were still present. He fought with a zest for battle, loved his friends, smiled, and wasn't above a prank or two. But he had changed functionally.

2. We do not--and I really, really wanna stress this--know what Jon's personality will be like. We know that there will be changes to his outlook, but we also know that he isn't so different that he no longer respects his dad or minds help from him (given the solicit from issue 8). We've already seen the physical change, so now, similar to Eren Jaeger and Goku, we as the reader have to see how far the changes run, and how much has stayed the same.

Because of these two points, I think I've made a pretty fair and clear point of comparison to the developments in Jon's story and in a manga. They are not 1 to 1 with any particular manga, no, but there are enough similarities that saying that there is no overlap or comparison to be made what so ever seems odd.

[Superlad93]

They spent a year in there, and it at least has been explained at what happens in the Room of Spirit and Time. Jon though, goes to space as a 10 year old, and returns a few months later in his mid-teens.

And it's been shown via Bendis twitter that it will be shown what happened out there. Like, I can actually post picture of their space trip being explained in an upcoming issue of Superman if you like. It's readily available for all to see. It's also been hinted at that Jon may physically differently than Clark or humans. Again, similar to how Goku to that large jump in growth or how Goten and Trunks are technically in their teens now, but they still look ten. The excuse for all being alien biology

Vegeta caring for his son is part of his long developing character development over the course of DBZ.

That had 3 off screen major developments. 1. being attracted to Bulma (no hits of this till it happened) 2. having a son 3. caring about either of them (he doesn't seem to care about them when they've just been shot down by an Android).

Except, everyone else also aged up with Goku. Goku was just the last to his (late) growth spurt.

Yes, and character design wise this was the only drastic change, thus the only one of real note or potential controversy. As of now Superman seems to be indicating that months to a year has passed for everyone, but due to Jon's specific biology he hit the growth spurt and got the drastic change in character design.

[Superlad93]

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, this is a special sequences by artist Brandon Peterson going over Lois, Jon, and Jor-El's time in space. This is confirmed to be starting in issue 7 of Superman. And via the DC site I see that it's also going to extend into issue 8. As you can see Peterson is listed as an artist working on that issue along with the regular art team.

https://www.dccomics.com/comics/supe...018/superman-8

[manwhohaseverything]

Up to that point in Dragon Ball this is flat out not true. We don't even see Vegeta acknowledge Bulma or Trunks by that point, and when they are finally in the same scene together, her flying car is shot down by Android 20 and Vegeta doesn't lift a finger. Gohan is the one who saves them. That's not "love/pride" for neither Trunks nor Bulma. That's apathy. This only changes to love/pride AFTER the off screen time skip in the time chamber. That's just a fact.



Cell attacking Trunks wouldn't have mattered to him before the time chamber time skip, and we see an example of this when Bulma and baby Trunks are put into danger by Android 20, and Vegeta doesn't care. The development/lead up of him reaching a point where he cares for Trunks enough to fight for him is technically skipped and we get the culmination of that lead up.

I don't remember actually,I haven't seen dbz in years.But still Vegeta still the same,his relationship and dynamics with anyone outside the chamber was same.And my point was it was parallel to the King Vegeta-Vegeta jr relation.His father was similar to Vegeta in many ways.I remember there being other foreshadowings(I might be wrong).So,Vegeta having pride for his son did not feel like it came for left field.I remember Vegeta wanting future Trunks to be stronger than kakkarot's son.Broly was banished because this selfish pride for his son by King Vegeta.

My point is that

1. This is very similar to a time skip in a manga because as the reader you're only presented with the shocking physical advancements of the character (appearance and power), and you, as the reader, wonder what how much of their personality has changed or stayed the same. As the reader you have to read on to see how much of them has changed personality wise and how much has stayed the same. Again, Goku is a great example, because Toriyama's editors were scared that his cute marketability or the loss of the big guy vs little guy dynamic would never be given fair compensation, and they were scared of how readers would react. And all readers had to read through the manga step by step from that point forward to see how much of him was changed. And in truth, some of his was fundamentally changed while quite a bit stayed the same. He was more serious and clam, and he was apparently mature enough to get married, but the fundamentals of his personality were still present. He fought with a zest for battle, loved his friends, smiled, and wasn't above a prank or two. But he had changed functionally.

2. We do not--and I really, really wanna stress this--know what Jon's personality will be like. We know that there will be changes to his outlook, but we also know that he isn't so different that he no longer respects his dad or minds help from him (given the solicit from issue 8). We've already seen the physical change, so now, similar to Eren Jaeger and Goku, we as the reader have to see how far the changes run, and how much has stayed the same.

Because of these two points, I think I've made a pretty fair and clear point of comparison to the developments in Jon's story and in a manga. They are not 1 to 1 with any particular manga, no, but there are enough similarities that saying that there is no overlap or comparison to be made what so ever seems odd.

And I am not saying about,the story but the marketing.For instance, New 52 superman was marketed as this radical cool version of the character,but in-story he was not.I will judge the book when it comes out on it's own.
Plot devices like hyperbolic time chamber did not radicaly change the character and relationships with people outside time chamber.time chambers don't affect everyone.The physical changes were trivial in such plot devices like T.C and personalities,core characteristics remain same to mitigate audiences shock turning to anger to apathy.Vegeta did not start loving bulma after time chamber with trunks.

Even with time skips,They don't change characters massively(shonen formula).Goku did not have a major personality change.Tone of the character remain same(shonen).He was still a fighter.Sci-fi was added to story,but still same story. End goal of shonen character still remain same like becoming hokage,priate king...etc.Even outlook remains the same.Naruto didn't care about peace even after time skip,untill pain questioned him about it,made him realise his own contradictions.Here,relations and dynamics may change for instance Vegeta and Bulma.Physical appearence may or may not be trivial but will affect everyone.
Doomsday clock is a timeskip.It is universal.Here,superboy is the only one who's physical appearence has changed.Clark,Lois,Damian..etc did not become 5 years older.And from the marketing it feels like this the second coming of superboy prime not old Jon personality-wise albeit with some changes.So,it is neither a time skip or time chamber like plot device.

Both Time skips and T.C don't feel like reboots to character and his relations(Marketing..etc).

[Superlad93]

I will judge the book when it comes out on it's own.

And from the marketing it feels like this the second coming of superboy prime not old Jon personality-wise albeit with some changes.So,it is neither a time skip or time chamber like plot device.

What I'm having trouble understanding from any of your post to me on this subject is how you're so sure of the changes to Jon's personality will be removing him competently from who he was before. You haven't read the issues yet (neither have I), and the solicits are vague, but you're still saying it has no point of relation to who he was before personality wise. That doesn't make any sense. Based just off the facts we know (an amount of time has passed for everyone in the story, and a character has undergone a large physical change and has had aspects added to their character) it has quite a lot in common with a shounen time skip in terms of functionality. I mean, you're saying that the end goals of all the shounen characters remain the same, and that's why Jon isn't like them, but, again, you don't know what he's going to be like, so how can you say that without the shadow of a doubt? You even say "I'll judge the book when it comes out" yet you're currently condemning it for faults you are only speculating about as we speak because you're assuming Jon's personality won't at all resemble his old one and thus will not have any similarities to most shounen. But, the fact of the matter is, you don't know that at all. And like you, I don't know if the opposite will be true.

This is still a time skip, dude. It says that months to a year have passed for everyone. It doesn't get clearer than that. Just because Jon is the only one who went through a big physical change doesn't make it any less of a time skip.

I don't really understand your stance by this point. Marketing/covers vs the actual story are two wildly different things, so I don't understand your point or your argument against my observations.

[Yoda]

This is still a time skip, dude. It says that months to years have passed for everyone. It doesn't get clearer than that. Just because Jon is the only one who went through a big physical change doesn't make it any less of a time skip.

Plus, the Superman timeline has to catch up with Action Comics. Jon isn't back in Action, but Lois is. And Lois isn't back when the Earth was shunted off to the Phantom Zone. Moreover, Clark & Lois discuss his aborted attempt to go find them in Superman 1. The ending of Superman #6 likely will have a time jump up to at least Action Comics post-1006.

And a year is a big deal for a 11 year old. I mean, really there's no mystical or scifi explanation necessary. He's 10 at the start of Rebirth. 11 or maybe even 12 at the start of Man of Steel (I maintain MoS happens after Doomsday Clock). He comes back at 12 or 13, you can write off a good chunk of aesthetic changes to just aging normally. Now it looks like he's older, but still. Comic book artists are notorious for having a poor grasp of drawing teens as teens instead of (slightly) shorter adults.

[Superlad93]

Plus, the Superman timeline has to catch up with Action Comics. Jon isn't back in Action, but Lois is. And Lois isn't back when the Earth was shunted off to the Phantom Zone. Moreover, Clark & Lois discuss his aborted attempt to go find them in Superman 1. The ending of Superman #6 likely will have a time jump up to at least Action Comics post-1006.

Exactly! I have nothing against the posters I was debating with, but I genuinely don't understand why I've had to debate the idea that time has been and will be skipped/passed in these books. It's textual information by this point. It's been months/a year for everyone. We just saw more of what happen in that time for Clark already. And we'll soon be seeing what happened for Jon as soon by the pictures above.

And a year is a big deal for a 11 year old. I mean, really there's no mystical or scifi explanation necessary. He's 10 at the start of Rebirth. 11 or maybe even 12 at the start of Man of Steel (I maintain MoS happens after Doomsday Clock). He comes back at 12 or 13, you can write off a good chunk of aesthetic changes to just aging normally. Now it looks like he's older, but still. Comic book artists are notorious for having a poor grasp of drawing teens as teens instead of (slightly) shorter adults.

While I think this is still well within the grounds of speculation, Lois in Action 1004 makes it quite clear that Jon's physical growth spurt was drastic enough that she took notice. Moreover, he'd been shown doing some growing before going to space in Man of Steel #1. It has yet to be stated exactly why (thus the rightful speculation), but I strongly suspect alien/hybrid genetics being at play here.

Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens left things pretty wide open in terms of how Jon's biology/powers would progress as time went on, so, realistically speaking, any writer coming onto the books can recontextualize it however the see is needed for their run till someone hammers it out clearly. Take Franklin Richards for example. Hickman has done maybe the most with him in all of his history, and by the end of his mega run in he had Franklin creating the whole multiverse with his dad and uncle Owen. However, once Dan Slott came on he simply said Franklin didn't have the power to make worlds anymore but he was still the most power hero in Marvel. The reasoning? "That part of his journey was done," and since nothing that Hickman established about his powers contradicts this idea, it's perfectly acceptable.

Child gods no longer creating universes, and human alien hybrids going through super puberty. Comics. Yes, they are in fact strange lol

[JAK]

That's totally possible. However, I'd personally like to think Jor-El was in fact doing what was physically best for the boy, though. I think that grays the conversation between him and Clark more, and allows for good points to be made on both sides, as opposed to the uncovering of an almost going over the same ground as the Manchester Black arc, Black Dawn with the growth stunting milk and Chester messing with the kid's power and promising him more power later. Makes Jor-El a more three dimensional character. Now that we've got him, I'd rather he be something more than evil. A tactless jerk? Sure. But Oz/Chester? I'd rather not right now.

And in terms of the narrative reasoning for it? Eh, narrative reasoning in long comics is more or less only applicable to the run you're in at the moment. The writer takes the ideas from the other runs before them and they decide what they want to directly follow up, recontextulize, or stay away from. Like, there was no narrative reason for Pre-52 Superman to become this world's Superman, or for the New 52 Superman to die. New 52 Superman's death in particular was a massive recontextualization of events from the past year or so that the writers decided would kill him. It's all about how you work the story you're writing. There is no set rule that says two male "teen" (in the physical sense. Both character are chronologically either under 13 or just 13 from what we know so far) Super characters function at the same time. I mean, Batman has Duke, Tim, and Damian who are all teen men (Damian is about 13 or 14). Also Dick and Jason are both men in their 20s.

I'm no writer but I can think of at least a reason or two for why it's okay that Jon and Conner can stand at roughly shoulder height to one another. At this stage, I can't say that we're poorer for not having kid Jon because I don't know what's in it's place, and I obviously wouldn't know if it should be a permanent thing or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Jor is an outright villain in my scenario there - I'm saying that he thinks that what he's doing is good for his grandson; it's just that it isn't, and ends up hurting him (unintentionally).

My problem with aging Jon from a narrative standpoint is that with said aging, they lose a narrative perspective. There are few stories with a teen Jon that Conner couldn't fill, etc. So I definitely prefer this as a temporary thing. We've had "kid Damien" for a lot longer than we've had "kid Jon," and it'd be a shame to lose it so soon.

I know. And it's a shame that DC is treating the character like this. I dont feel like this is being done with an eye towards building Nightwing up better than ever, in the same way that stories like Knightfall ultimately played out. I feel like this is just because DC has no clue what to do with Dick or anyone in his generation. And the timing really sucks; this is pulling Dick out of Heroes in Crisis where two of his close friends have died, and now Leviathan, where Dick's time with Spyral makes him a character who should be involved in the plot. "Ric" Grayson doesn't seem to be about making Nightwing a better character, it seems to be about trying to make Nightwing fans hope for a mercy killing.

And Clark's "family is destroyed?" Come on. Lois is working away from home. How many times has Clark taken off, for days and months at a time, because of "work?" We accept that without question and expect Lois to wait dutifully for his return. But now that Lois is doing something important that's keeping her out of Metropolis it's not okay? Obviously she's in something deep or she wouldn't be acting the way she is, but there is nothing wrong with her, Clark, or their marriage. And the last issue went out of its way to show us that they're okay.

And we don't know what is going on with Jon yet, but the fact that he returns home with "Grandpa is crazy" makes me feel like we're not going to see him go off the deep end. Well, he's hitting puberty maybe, and that's a certain kind of insane, but also normal. I figure the worst case scenario is Jon ends up co-starring with the Legion and spending his weekends in the future, just like his dad did. And if that means that Jon isn't a major feature in Clark's books....well, they're not Jon's books, are they? And just like Kid Flash and Robin and Aqualad don't *have* to be in their mentors' books, neither does Jon *have* to be a great big part of Clark's.

That's another thing... DC just doesn't seem to know what to do with the Nightwing generation, and I'd hate to see Jon get close to that area for that reason as well.

That's totally true, the text itself doesn't support such extreme measures. Yet. And if we didn't have all the interviews and solicits talking about things, I'd understand the concern a lot more. But most of us here know there's big stuff for Lois coming up, and the complaints just end up feeling really thin, like they're trying to justify an opinion they formed before the first issues even came out. It basically reads, to me, like people saying "Well, we know Lois will be a big deal in arc two, but she wasn't a big deal in arc one so clearly no one understands her!"

As for the "family being destroyed/etc" and the reactions we've seen, DC has given us good reasons over the years not to trust them, so I really can't blame people who see things and get worried quickly - especially after we've had it so good. It took Rebirth and Reborn before I fully trusted DC with Superman again. And two years ago isn't that long of a time. So while I still have some trust overall... aging Jon up (imo) has the markings of a red flag, even for me.

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On another note, it's interesting that Lois is wearing the ReBIRTH costume, not the ReBORN costume. Not that I mind, but so much for that being the narrative reason Superman went back to the trunks.