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  1. #6856
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'll be honest, the more I think about it the more it pisses me off that now even the inspiration is being divvied up between the whole DCU. Now everyone is their inspiration? Last I checked the Legion wasn't born as a concept and didn't become popular in the first place because of Batman. Nor because of Wonder Woman. Nor because of Aquaman. Nor because of Green Lantern. Etc. Etc. The property became something popular because of Superman. Period. That's just the truth. But now inspiration for their forming has to be shared and equal. It just irritates me.
    To be fair, when they first appeared Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were basically the only superheroes DC was publishing (outside of back-ups), and the shared universe more or less only existed in theory.

  2. #6857
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'll be honest, the more I think about it the more it pisses me off that now even the inspiration is being divvied up between the whole DCU. Now everyone is their inspiration? Last I checked the Legion wasn't born as a concept and didn't become popular in the first place because of Batman. Nor because of Wonder Woman. Nor because of Aquaman. Nor because of Green Lantern. Etc. Etc. The property became something popular because of Superman. Period. That's just the truth. But now inspiration for their forming has to be shared and equal. It just irritates me.
    Yeah, gods forbid Clark gets to actually be as special as DC's lip service claims he is.

    Honestly I'm more annoyed about this than I am the idea of Jon being the one to join the Legion instead of Clark. I get what Bendis is saying about Jon and the Legion and he's got a valid point, even though I don't agree with him. But this is just.....yeah, let's take something else away from Clark so other characters can ride his success.
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  3. #6858
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Bendis is having him actually found the United Planets and apparently do the work of trying to run it though, so thatís something. And unlike Batman, Inc this isnít going to freaking collapse in less than a year lmao! But yeah I do think taking everything away from Clark and giving it to someone else is annoying. But Bendis isnít the first to do this, pretty much ALL of Post Crisis Superman had (canon) Superman and the LoSH never interact. Kara hung out with Waidís LoSH, and Kon hung out with Johns.

    At this point though thereís zero reason to keep Secret Origin in canon. Itís the second weakest one and Iíd rather Wolfmanís Origin took its place. Man and Superman is a pretty good compromise between Byrne and Morrison, even though it was written long before Morrison!

  4. #6859
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    I mean, I'd be just as wound up as some of you when it comes to Superman not being named as the individual inspiration for the Legion.......if we didn't have photographic proof that a suitable and arguably more important role wasn't given to Superman's actions. As a bonus, said role is actually the direct reason that the Legion is a thing in this continuity.






    Superman and his family unambiguously create the United Planets right on panel in an actual comic book. The Legion don't come back to the past to see Batman punch Bane in the face for the 3rd time, or Wonder Woman tie up Doctor Poison for the 6th. The come back to the past to see, in there own words, "the day that changed everything." It's "the day the put the galaxy on a path towards a real future." And in no uncertain terms "it was the decision to form the United Planets that saved all of us."

    Hell, they even named this day a freakin galactic holiday. August 18th is now "Unity Day." It's a straight up Miracle Monday homage on top of everything. And then to put the icing on the unambiguous cake, that moment--that day is "the greatest day of the age of heroes."

    Now obviously this isn't the more nebulous inspiration of before where they are inspired by him simply because he's Superman (which in and of itself is perfectly cool by me. I've always found the idea extremely charming in and of itself). It's a far more tangible and direct legacy he leaves with a far greater reach. Clark and his family create the base for an intergalactic unified government that will take root and thrive a thousand years from now, and he'll also apparently because Earth's first president.

    I don't expect it to satisfy everyone who would rather the original alternative, but it's not as if Bendis is pulling a post-crisis Mon-El and leaving Clark with no fair compensation and alternative means for new story.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-17-2019 at 09:42 PM.
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  5. #6860
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'll be honest, the more I think about it the more it pisses me off that now even the inspiration is being divvied up between the whole DCU. Now everyone is their inspiration? Last I checked the Legion wasn't born as a concept and didn't become popular in the first place because of Batman. Nor because of Wonder Woman. Nor because of Aquaman. Nor because of Green Lantern. Etc. Etc. The property became something popular because of Superman. Period. That's just the truth. But now inspiration for their forming has to be shared and equal. It just irritates me.
    Life has been kicking my butt lately so I'm behind on my reading/news and I've mostly been lurking, but I must have missed something because I don't see where it was explicitly stated this was the case? I don't doubt it, that sounds like something DC's current editorial would do, but where was that said?

    It sucks. I understand where Bendis wants to go with making Jon the central figure for the new Legion (he wants to have a Superboy and the Legion for a new generation, which isn't awful even if I dislike how we got there), but Clark is really losing his place in the DCU to prop others up. It's strange. Everyone on the JLA is allowed to overcome their built in weaknesses from launch (yellow, needing to be near water, bondage) but it's Clark and J'onn who can't get over their weaknesses, yet Clark also has his corner of the universe harvested for the greater DCU. Brainiac is treated more like a JLA/DCU villain these days, and Luthor's A-Game is reserved for team-ups. The Legion is now being pulled from him. What's next?

    I swear, DC hates him but loves everything around him.

    EDIT: Just saw the page above. I know Bendis means well, but this absolutely sucks and needs a retcon. They're doing everything they can to piecemeal what makes him special/unique and make Clark irrelevant. He's not going to be special if you do your best to make him generic.
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-17-2019 at 11:39 PM.

  6. #6861
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I mean, I'd be just as wound up as some of you when it comes to Superman not being named as the individual inspiration for the Legion.......if we didn't have photographic proof that a suitable and arguably more important role wasn't given to Superman's actions. As a bonus, said role is actually the direct reason that the Legion is a thing in this continuity.
    I haven't seen those images yet. Nice. Man, is there anybody who does this stuff better than Reis? That man's talent is incredible! Even the talking heads are fun to look at.

    No, you're right that Bendis *is* giving Clark something in return. And the idea of Clark being President of Earth could very much balance out, or even outweigh, the loss of the Legion's involvement in his origin (and you know I'm crazy excited about the potential here). I do think that Bendis, while he's taking things out of Clark's story, really *is* trying to put stuff back in as well, and he seems to be trying to include stuff that will advance the entire story (the next step in life, like getting married or having Jon were, and I love that stuff), which is a bigger gain than stuff that mostly only gets mentioned in origins or the occasional origin-related storyline.

    I mean, *if* this Earth President thing takes off, and *if* it becomes a regular factor in Clark's story, and *if* it outlives Bendis' run and becomes a staple of Superman stories.....then I'll accept the loss of the Legion and Clark being the direct inspiration for them. We will have, if nothing else, broken even (probably made solid gains, if it works right). But otherwise? It won't balance the scales for me yknow?

    So no, it's not as bad as post-Crisis where almost everything unique about Superman was stripped away and (sometimes) given to other characters like Valor (I will NEVER call him Mon-El!! NEVER!!!!! Bwahahaha!!). But still, I have spent decades watching some of the craziest, coolest aspects of Clark's mythos be taken away from him. I know Bendis is doing all this with good intentions and he's earned my trust with Superman. Odds are when the dust settles I'll consider this a minor annoyance I can ignore (like how awful Rogal is) at worst, and a great new addition at best. But this sort of thing makes me very nervous, and the bottom line is I've seen it happen far too often to want to see it done again, even if, for once, it's done well and we get something back in return.

    I know it's greedy, but I want stuff added to the mythos like Clark founding the UP and being President of Earth, *without* having to lose something in return.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-18-2019 at 07:51 AM.
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  7. #6862
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I mean, I'd be just as wound up as some of you when it comes to Superman not being named as the individual inspiration for the Legion.......if we didn't have photographic proof that a suitable and arguably more important role wasn't given to Superman's actions. As a bonus, said role is actually the direct reason that the Legion is a thing in this continuity.






    Superman and his family unambiguously create the United Planets right on panel in an actual comic book. The Legion don't come back to the past to see Batman punch Bane in the face for the 3rd time, or Wonder Woman tie up Doctor Poison for the 6th. The come back to the past to see, in there own words, "the day that changed everything." It's "the day the put the galaxy on a path towards a real future." And in no uncertain terms "it was the decision to form the United Planets that saved all of us."

    Hell, they even named this day a freakin galactic holiday. August 18th is now "Unity Day." It's a straight up Miracle Monday homage on top of everything. And then to put the icing on the unambiguous cake, that moment--that day is "the greatest day of the age of heroes."

    Now obviously this isn't the more nebulous inspiration of before where they are inspired by him simply because he's Superman (which in and of itself is perfectly cool by me. I've always found the idea extremely charming in and of itself). It's a far more tangible and direct legacy he leaves with a far greater reach. Clark and his family create the base for an intergalactic unified government that will take root and thrive a thousand years from now, and he'll also apparently because Earth's first president.

    I don't expect it to satisfy everyone who would rather the original alternative, but it's not as if Bendis is pulling a post-crisis Mon-El and leaving Clark with no fair compensation and alternative means for new story.
    The odd thing here is that, there is an August 18 for the entire galaxy? I have to say this has a great potential and sounds pretty cool. I haven't read much of LoSH, so i am not the biggest fan of them being part of Superman's formative years. At one point i really preferred that Superman should not be Superboy or had adventures with LoSH. That felt childish and made Superman's origin more complicated. (A young Superman was inspired by those whom he inspired as Superman). But over time i have grown to love the concept. (Kids represent the future. Superman is an inspiration to them. Superman is right to be so optimistic). At the same time i have not stopped liking the more 'streamlined' origins. This just might be the thing for me. To have the cake and eat it too. Hopefully, United Planets play important part in the stories, in times to come. And Jon shines along with LoSH. And i would be a happy camper.

  8. #6863
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I mean, I'd be just as wound up as some of you when it comes to Superman not being named as the individual inspiration for the Legion.......if we didn't have photographic proof that a suitable and arguably more important role wasn't given to Superman's actions. As a bonus, said role is actually the direct reason that the Legion is a thing in this continuity.






    Superman and his family unambiguously create the United Planets right on panel in an actual comic book. The Legion don't come back to the past to see Batman punch Bane in the face for the 3rd time, or Wonder Woman tie up Doctor Poison for the 6th. The come back to the past to see, in there own words, "the day that changed everything." It's "the day the put the galaxy on a path towards a real future." And in no uncertain terms "it was the decision to form the United Planets that saved all of us."

    Hell, they even named this day a freakin galactic holiday. August 18th is now "Unity Day." It's a straight up Miracle Monday homage on top of everything. And then to put the icing on the unambiguous cake, that moment--that day is "the greatest day of the age of heroes."

    Now obviously this isn't the more nebulous inspiration of before where they are inspired by him simply because he's Superman (which in and of itself is perfectly cool by me. I've always found the idea extremely charming in and of itself). It's a far more tangible and direct legacy he leaves with a far greater reach. Clark and his family create the base for an intergalactic unified government that will take root and thrive a thousand years from now, and he'll also apparently because Earth's first president.

    I don't expect it to satisfy everyone who would rather the original alternative, but it's not as if Bendis is pulling a post-crisis Mon-El and leaving Clark with no fair compensation and alternative means for new story.
    Now I just imagine the old-school Superboy and Legion team-ups but the Legion having to stop themselves from calling teen Clark "Mr. President" .

  9. #6864
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Life has been kicking my butt lately so I'm behind on my reading/news and I've mostly been lurking, but I must have missed something because I don't see where it was explicitly stated this was the case? I don't doubt it, that sounds like something DC's current editorial would do, but where was that said?

    It sucks. I understand where Bendis wants to go with making Jon the central figure for the new Legion (he wants to have a Superboy and the Legion for a new generation, which isn't awful even if I dislike how we got there), but Clark is really losing his place in the DCU to prop others up. It's strange. Everyone on the JLA is allowed to overcome their built in weaknesses from launch (yellow, needing to be near water, bondage) but it's Clark and J'onn who can't get over their weaknesses, yet Clark also has his corner of the universe harvested for the greater DCU. Brainiac is treated more like a JLA/DCU villain these days, and Luthor's A-Game is reserved for team-ups. The Legion is now being pulled from him. What's next?

    I swear, DC hates him but loves everything around him.

    EDIT: Just saw the page above. I know Bendis means well, but this absolutely sucks and needs a retcon. They're doing everything they can to piecemeal what makes him special/unique and make Clark irrelevant. He's not going to be special if you do your best to make him generic.
    First off, hope things are slowing and steadying for ya IRL.

    But yeah, I agree with all this. I definitely don't think Bendis means ill will or anything like that but I just don't agree with the bulk of these changes. I mean, Superman basically starts the United Planets, which in turn will result in everything else and that's cool, I like that. In theory that's meaningful. But will it be in practice? What I mean by that is, it just seems that when we get to the 31st century and the characters that matter most, the actual Legionnaires, Superman's meaning to them has the potential to be diminished with this sharing of inspiration initiative, and losing out on Superman being the first to meet them and have adventures with them as a kid. A close interpersonal relationship is now earmarked for Jon, and hell even the first arc will seem to revolve around something Aquaman-related. I just see the total mindset here as a step forward, two steps backward type thing as it pertains to Superman himself. And like you I feel like this crap is always happening to him. His mythos is always being harvested to benefit others to his specific detriment.

    I hope I'm surprised and a strong Superman-specific focus within the group and lore is retained and practiced in a different way. If it does and it works, I'd be the first to pat Bendis on the back for a good plan. I've liked plenty of his other Superman ideas. But this portends ominous in my head. We'll see.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-18-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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  10. #6865
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    I just don't get how this makes him the least bit generic or homogenized with the other heroes? Isn't this the total opposite?

    Like, Clark's literally the only person in the 21st century who could pull of something as big and game changing as this. Bendis kind of spends the whole run telling and showing us this. Martian Manhunter explains that Superman is the only one who could bring Earth into the galactic conversation (and that he's the only one that they'd trust implicitly). Jor-El explains to Lois that because of Superman's actions, the House of El are nearly royalty around the galaxy. Jon explains to his mom and dad that during his studies he found that even though Earth isn't really recognized or known by many in the galaxy, Superman is. Clark is able to stop looters the same way a parent stops a kid from touching the stove. Superman is also able to stop 3 different armies at once primarily because of his rep and how people around the galaxy respect him, his deeds, and his power.

    Neither Wonder Woman, nor Batman, nor Green Lantern, nor Flash, or any other hero could just walk up to a literal gathering of the galaxy's super powers while they are totally at odds and at their most suspicious of one another and then have them agree to a galactic community. None of them got it like that. And certainly none of those heroes is as widely loved, and inspires as much trust and good will that they'd apparently be elected president of a planet.

    I mean, we usually spend so much time paying lip service to the idea that Superman's a big deal or that he gives people some nebulous idea of hope, but this is legitimately putting the money where the mouth is on the grandest scale possible without going for the all to often (but never unappreciated on my part) metatextual importance that really, if we're all honest, amounts to just a knowing wink to the reader. This is technically more tangible and direct (not saying it's objectively better, but that it is objectively more direct) than simply inspiring the Legion through acts that aren't really distinguishable from the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, or Green Lantern. This is something he directly made, and not only stands in the 31st century but thrives.

    And now his acts are held up as the absolute apex of the heroic age that inspires the Legion. And again, it's far, far more tangible and clearer than it was before. In previous context its not at all clear why they'd pick Superman over say Martian Manhunter or Wonder Woman. Not to belittle the idea (because to be fair it was an idea born from when Superman was the only hero, so there's an inherent flaw when adapting it to a shared universe) but is it that he punched Darkseid the hardest? Is it that he saved the world "the best?" Is it that he was nebulously inspiring? In this new context you have a very real line you can draw where Superman tangibly contributes the actual greatest and most important advancement in the galaxy that's completely unique from literally anything Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, or Flash has ever done.

    Hell, Lighting Lad even says that "we each dedicated ours lives to the ideals superheroes in direct honor of this very day." It's worded differently because now Superman did something very specific to both ensure their future and directly inspire them, but he's the reason.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-18-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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  11. #6866
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I just don't get how this makes him the least bit generic or homogenized with the other heroes? Isn't this the total opposite?
    The idea of Clark starting the UP and being the first President of Earth is very much something only Superman could do. You're right about all that of course and I am excited as hell about all that. But what a lot of us are taking issue with is other unique elements of Clark's lore being removed for the benefit of others. Jon is getting the Legion, and their place in Clark's origin was a very unique thing for Superman (I get where Bendis is coming from and his logic is sound but it's still Clark losing something for someone else's benefit, after he's lost so much over the decades). And now that the future has been inspired by the "entire heroic age" instead of Clark specifically, that's again something that was unique about Clark that is being removed from his specific story for the benefit of others.

    Now, Im an issue behind I think, and dont read interviews, so maybe this "the Legion is inspired by all the early heroes" thing sounds worse than it is. You'd know better than me here since you're following this more closely. And we *are* getting something in return (something that is f**king amazing!). But I think a lot of us are just sick and tired of seeing things taken out of Clark's story so other characters can reap the rewards. I bet you real money if all this Earth President/forming the UP stuff was happening without losing the Legion in his origin, all of us bitching about it would be thrilled beyond measure at the narrative taking steps forward.
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  12. #6867
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But still, I have spent decades watching some of the craziest, coolest aspects of Clark's mythos be taken away from him. I know Bendis is doing all this with good intentions and he's earned my trust with Superman. Odds are when the dust settles I'll consider this a minor annoyance I can ignore (like how awful Rogal is) at worst, and a great new addition at best. But this sort of thing makes me very nervous, and the bottom line is I've seen it happen far too often to want to see it done again, even if, for once, it's done well and we get something back in return.
    I totally sympathize with this sentiment. I'll say that from what I can tell the only thing that is actively being lost is Clark being friends with the Legion as a kid. And while it's an aspect of his life that has gone pretty undeserved even when it was in continuity, I found great merit in the idea, but simply because it was always more of an idea than anything ever payed out I can't say I'll have much to miss in the way of story, ya know? But it's still an objective loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And now that the future has been inspired by the "entire heroic age" instead of Clark specifically, that's again something that was unique about Clark that is being removed from his specific story for the benefit of others.
    Technically he's still their inspiration. Lightning Lad says. "We each dedicated ours lives to the ideals superheroes in direct honor of this very day." Because again, in a shared universe, as a hero, what specifically about Clark would inspire the Legion that Wonder Woman, MM, Flash, and GL didn't do in some from if we're just talking about them being heroes. They usually just pin it on the nebulous idea of "he's inspiring" or "hopeful." And that has no tangle distinction from Wonder Woman, GL, Flash, or even Batman if we're honest. But now they're inspired by to uphold the ideals of the age of heroes (which Superman shares with all his peers) specifically because of a situation that Clark and only Clark could've pulled off.

    I bet you real money if all this Earth President/forming the UP stuff was happening without losing the Legion in his origin, all of us bitching about it would be thrilled beyond measure at the narrative taking steps forward.
    I'm sure that'd be the case, but at the very least the Legion stay in the family. More than we could say during the New 52 past Morrison's.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-18-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  13. #6868
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I just don't get how this makes him the least bit generic or homogenized with the other heroes? Isn't this the total opposite?

    Like, Clark's literally the only person in the 21st century who could pull of something as big and game changing as this. Bendis kind of spends the whole run telling and showing us this. Martian Manhunter explains that Superman is the only one who could bring Earth into the galactic conversation (and that he's the only one that they'd trust implicitly). Jor-El explains to Lois that because of Superman's actions, the House of El are nearly royalty around the galaxy. Jon explains to his mom and dad that during his studies he found that even though Earth isn't really recognized or known by many in the galaxy, Superman is. Clark is able to stop looters the same way a parent stops a kid from touching the stove. Superman is also able to stop 3 different armies at once primarily because of his rep and how people around the galaxy respect him, his deeds, and his power.

    Neither Wonder Woman, nor Batman, nor Green Lantern, nor Flash, or any other hero could just walk up to a literal gathering of the galaxy's super powers while they are totally at odds and at their most suspicious of one another and then have them agree to a galactic community. None of them got it like that. And certainly none of those heroes is as widely loved, and inspires as much trust and good will that they'd apparently be elected president of a planet.

    I mean, we usually spend so much time paying lip service to the idea that Superman's a big deal or that he gives people some nebulous idea of hope, but this is legitimately putting the money where the mouth is on the grandest scale possible without going for the all to often (but never unappreciated on my part) metatextual importance that really, if we're all honest, amounts to just a knowing wink to the reader. This is technically more tangible and direct (not saying it's objectively better, but that it is objectively more direct) than simply inspiring the Legion through acts that aren't really distinguishable from the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, or Green Lantern. This is something he directly made, and not only stands in the 31st century but thrives.

    And now his acts are held up as the absolute apex of the heroic age that inspires the Legion. And again, it's far, far more tangible and clearer than it was before. In previous context its not at all clear why they'd pick Superman over say Martian Manhunter or Wonder Woman. Not to belittle the idea (because to be fair it was an idea born from when Superman was the only hero, so there's an inherent flaw when adapting it to a shared universe) but is it that he punched Darkseid the hardest? Is it that he saved the world "the best?" Is it that he was nebulously inspiring? In this new context you have a very real line you can draw where Superman tangibly contributes the actual greatest and most important advancement in the galaxy that's completely unique from literally anything Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, or Flash has ever done.

    Hell, Lighting Lad even says that "we each dedicated ours lives to the ideals superheroes in direct honor of this very day." It's worded differently because now Superman did something very specific to both ensure their future and directly inspire them, but he's the reason.
    I thought Superman's inspiration of the Legion was rooted to some degree by his being such a public, successful, and well-regarded Superhero despite his alien status, which is something that the entire Legion can relate to.

    I mean, J'onn's an alien but somewhat deliberately he was never as much the face of a generation or this upfront, public, figure Superman is.

  14. #6869
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I thought Superman's inspiration of the Legion was rooted to some degree by his being such a public, successful, and well-regarded Superhero despite his alien status, which is something that the entire Legion can relate to.

    I mean, J'onn's an alien but somewhat deliberately he was never as much the face of a generation or this upfront, public, figure Superman is.
    You're totally right, but even with that, in a shared universe, it's still odd that he's in the beginning and end of their inspiration for that fact alone. And it's ultimately a far more passive role for Clark when compared to the new United Planets idea.
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  15. #6870
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    You're totally right, but even with that, in a shared universe, it's still odd that he's in the beginning and end of their inspiration for that fact alone. And it's ultimately a far more passive role for Clark when compared to the new United Planets idea.
    I mean, they're technically a Superman spinoff so on that note I think it's justifiable, but also from an in-universe perspective...again, Superman is always lauded as a big deal among normal heroes in his own timeline and is probably the biggest alien hero of them all on Earth.

    I don't see it as passive in as much as Clark's actions and heroics in his own time (which are chronicled in his own books) stand out still within the Legion's timeline.

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