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  1. #6871
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I totally sympathize with this sentiment. I'll say that from what I can tell the only thing that is actively being lost is Clark being friends with the Legion as a kid. And while it's an aspect of his life that has gone pretty undeserved even when it was in continuity, I found great merit in the idea, but simply because it was always more of an idea than anything ever payed out I can't say I'll have much to miss in the way of story, ya know? But it's still an objective loss.
    The Legion's involvement with Clark has always been more of a "bragging point" than an actual story point, but yeah....it's an objective loss. And I feel like we've lost enough.

    Again, and I cant stress this enough, I've enjoyed Bendis' run a lot more than I expected to (and I had hope he'd do a good job when he signed on). I trust him with Superman more than most creators at DC, and infinitely more than anyone in DC's management. I'm (mostly) sure he'll end up spinning this in a way I'm willing to accept. Even if he somehow botches this, the UP and President of Earth stuff should keep me quiet and relatively happy, because those are big gains that could more than equal out what we're losing if done right. But gods damn it to oblivion I'm sick and tired of seeing Clark lose things so other people can benefit from it.

    Technically he's still their inspiration. Lightning Lad says. "We each dedicated ours lives to the ideals superheroes in direct honor of this very day." Because again, in a shared universe, as a hero, what specifically about Clark would inspire the Legion that Wonder Woman, MM, Flash, and GL didn't do in some from if we're just talking about them being heroes. They usually just pin it on the nebulous idea of "he's inspiring" or "hopeful." And that has no tangle distinction from Wonder Woman, GL, Flash, or even Batman if we're honest. But now they're inspired by to uphold the ideals of the age of heroes (which Superman shares with all his peers) specifically because of a situation that Clark and only Clark could've pulled off.
    I always figured you couldn't truly measure Clark's influence on the world/universe until he was retired/dead (who knows what he's yet to accomplish?), but I'd say things like being the first hero of the heroic age and the reason heroes are trusted like they are, defeating Imperiex, and all the other things he's done in-story were a good start. This is, yeah it's definitely adding one big thing the Legion can point to and say "Damn how cool is that??" but I don't feel like Clark's list of feats is so lacking it was needed for him to be remembered. Everyone else.....no one is gonna remember Batman and how he failed to save one city (they might remember him as how Nightwing got his start, I refuse to believe in a 31st century that doesn't recognize Nightwing's greatness! ). No one is going to remember that space cop who was better at being a cop than the other guys....no one is gonna remember the Flash's biggest wins mostly because they happen in weird timelines and alternate dimensions.

    I'm sure that'd be the case, but at the very least the Legion stay in the family. More than we could say during the New 52 past Morrison's.
    Ha! That's true.

    I mean, this is far from the worst thing that could happen. I'm just very annoyed and very tired of stuff being taken out of Clark's story. I get where Bendis is coming from but I really don't feel like this was necessary, or that Clark's story is somehow improved by moving these concepts out of his history.
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  2. #6872
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, they're technically a Superman spinoff so on that note I think it's justifiable, but also from an in-universe perspective...again, Superman is always lauded as a big deal among normal heroes in his own timeline and is probably the biggest alien hero of them all on Earth.

    I don't see it as passive in as much as Clark's actions and heroics in his own time (which are chronicled in his own books) stand out still within the Legion's timeline.
    I don't actually disagree with. I think it had s stronger foothold when DC was largely light on the shared universe idea, and it helps when writers simply just don't talk about the idea of other heroes outside of Superman in the context of the Legion. But when you do take a greater shared universe into account and the deciding factor then becomes that he was alien superhero, I personally think it makes him feel a little smaller.

    I honestly think that's why Johns added in the idea that Superman acted as a sort of unofficial go-between that would eventually facilitate the peace negotiations that would allow worlds to move towards the formation of the UP in his Superman and the Legion story. And apparently that was a big reason why they couldn't let him die in the future.

    For me, it feels like Bendis expounded on that idea and it ended up boosting the whole inspiration aspect. Now he's not only the direct reason for the UP, but he's apparently gonna be Earth's first president on top of being the most beloved Earth hero in the galaxy.
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  3. #6873
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    but I don't feel like Clark's list of feats is so lacking it was needed for him to be remembered.
    I don't really think they are lacking, but just that they are technically indistinguishable from other heroes outside of their scale.

    I just personally really dig that in the buffet of heroes to pick from, Clark made a tangle and long lasting monolith expressly created by him and because of the long and respected rep he's cultivated. That, for me at least, is far less nebulous, and far more satisfying.

    But I don't want to make it seem as though I didn't appreciate the more general idea of him just doing so much good over a long enough time, or the importance of him being an alien and doing these things. I think they're strong ideas on their own.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-18-2019 at 07:23 PM.
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  4. #6874
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I don't actually disagree with. I think it had s stronger foothold when DC was largely light on the shared universe idea, and it helps when writers simply just don't talk about the idea of other heroes outside of Superman in the context of the Legion. But when you do take a greater shared universe into account and the deciding factor then becomes that he was alien superhero, I personally think it makes him feel a little smaller.

    I honestly think that's why Johns added in the idea that Superman acted as a sort of unofficial go-between that would eventually facilitate the peace negotiations that would allow worlds to move towards the formation of the UP in his Superman and the Legion story. And apparently that was a big reason why they couldn't let him die in the future.

    For me, it feels like Bendis expounded on that idea and it ended up boosting the whole inspiration aspect. Now he's not only the direct reason for the UP, but he's apparently gonna be Earth's first president on top of being the most beloved Earth hero in the galaxy.
    Yeah, but that's also connected to his alien heritage and how that gives Superman this cosmic perspective that he brings to the table, so it still connects back to that.

  5. #6875
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, but that's also connected to his alien heritage and how that gives Superman this cosmic perspective that he brings to the table, so it still connects back to that.
    Totally agree.

    And I like I said, I like the direct nature of this version quite a bit. And now that you mention it, Bendis' run seems to have taken special care to pay respects to both Superman as the refugee son from Krypton, and also the self made galactic champion. Like, the House of El itself doesn't seem to be famous to the rest of the galaxy for any other reason than it's Superman's house. The S is Superman's symbol first before it belongs to the great house as far as the galaxy goes. But Clark clearly credits Krypton's allowed destruction as the base for creating the UP.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-18-2019 at 07:20 PM.
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  6. #6876
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I don't really think they are lacking, but just that they are technically indistinguishable from other heroes outside of their scale.
    That's kinda the point isn't it? Clark's actions were so huge, so big, tales of them withstood the test of a thousand years.

    Don't get me wrong. I love the idea that the Legion can point to a specific moment and say "This is it, this is why you're remembered." That's not my problem here. It's not necessary, but it's cool. This whole UP thing? It's perfect Superman. What I'm not such a big fan of is the idea of sharing that win with other heroes; people who, in all honesty, have not done the things Clark has done, have not overcome what he has, and quite frankly don't deserve to share the honor. No offense to those other heroes, I love them too and their accomplishments matter. But the Legion.....that's Clark's victory, he earned it and deserves to keep it.

    You said it yourself; Clark creates the UP and this is why he's remembered. And that's f**king awesome. So now that the reasons for Superman's legend are even more firmly entrenched, defined, and more important than they've ever been before.....why is he suddenly having to share inspiring the Legion with all of his peers, who have never had much of anything to do with the Legion or the 31st century and generally don't have the reputation in-universe nor the feats on the page to equal Clark's?

    Now, like I've said, I don't know much about this plot point beyond the idea that Clark will no longer be the sole inspiration behind the Legion. That's not enough for a informed opinion. So if it turns out that the Legion are like "The League? Yeah, they were amazing, we love them. Superman? Oh, *now* there was a hero! He's our main guy! Our favorite! He's the main reason we're doing this!" then cool. That's fine by me. Those other heroes are pretty great too. But if Clark has to give equal billing to the other guys, as if stopping the Joker a hundred times matters to history as much as all the crap Clark does every month? I won't care for it.

    I'm very, very happy with everything Bendis is adding here. It's what he's potentially taking away I dont like. Even if it turns out we gain more than we lose (which seems very likely if this goes well) I'm tired of Superman losing. What? He can be the person who starts the UP, but he can't also be the person who inspires the Legion? Why can't he have both, especially when one is his in the first place?
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-18-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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  7. #6877
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    But he does have both.

    Lightning Lad specifically says "we each dedicated ours lives to the ideals of superheroes in direct honor of this very day." As in "we wouldn't be doing this if it was for you and this day." It's still pretty unambiguously Superman's actions inspiring them. He even uses the word "direct."

    The dialogue goes pretty out of its way to make sure it's known that, had Superman not been Superman and did this, these kids wouldn't have looked into the idea of what it means to be a hero. I mean, the actual reason they come back to the past is to specifically witness the greatest hero doing the most noteworthy heroic act in history that apparently saved all of them (in Lightning Lads own words).

    I mean, I suppose I get being a little miffed at the wording, but, with obvious respect to you all, it feels kind of like splitting hairs to me.
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  8. #6878
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Eh, I'll wait until the actual issue comes out, but if Bendis does indeed intend to retcon away Superman's teenage adventures with the original Legion and replace that with Superman simply inspiring them by founding the United Planets, I'm gonna go right ahead and ignore that and just pull the same stunt they did back in the Silver Age when they tried to explain that the original Legion that Clark met as a teenager were the descendants of the current LSH.

    From his Word Balloon interviews, it sounded like that was Bendis's plan, which is why he specifically set the new LSH in the 32nd Century as not to invalidate any of the previous Legions. I guess that's changed.

  9. #6879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Eh, I'll wait until the actual issue comes out, but if Bendis does indeed intend to retcon away Superman's teenage adventures with the original Legion and replace that with Superman simply inspiring them by founding the United Planets, I'm gonna go right ahead and ignore that and just pull the same stunt they did back in the Silver Age when they tried to explain that the original Legion that Clark met as a teenager were the descendants of the current LSH.

    From his Word Balloon interviews, it sounded like that was Bendis's plan, which is why he specifically set the new LSH in the 32nd Century as not to invalidate any of the previous Legions. I guess that's changed.
    The more likely is that Bendis never planned to mention the original Legion or Superman meeting them. At most, the possibility of a 31nd Century Legion would still be there.

    However, Bendis probably wants his characters to be considered new versions of the characters (not totally new characters). So, he decided this should be the 31nd Century Legion.

  10. #6880
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I mean, I suppose I get being a little miffed at the wording, but, with obvious respect to you all, it feels kind of like splitting hairs to me.
    I probably am splitting hairs. I've become very touchy about Clark's lore and mythology getting screwed with and taken apart by DC over the years.

    As I've said, Bendis has earned my trust and I expect/hope this will work out alright despite my concerns. Once I have the issue/s in hand it'll probably read just fine. We'll see. But I either vent my concerns and twenty-plus years of frustration with DC's handling of Clark here with you guys, or I bitch about it to my wife and.....well, I love her enough to not do that to her.
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  11. #6881
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I probably am splitting hairs. I've become very touchy about Clark's lore and mythology getting screwed with and taken apart by DC over the years.

    As I've said, Bendis has earned my trust and I expect/hope this will work out alright despite my concerns. Once I have the issue/s in hand it'll probably read just fine. We'll see. But I either vent my concerns and twenty-plus years of frustration with DC's handling of Clark here with you guys, or I bitch about it to my wife and.....well, I love her enough to not do that to her.
    I'm right there with you. Its got me on the edge of my seat with equal parts dread and anticipation. This is all one really good development and a really bad one at the same time. I'm willing to give it a try though, but I can't help feeling like I'll be happier after the next reboot lol.

  12. #6882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I probably am splitting hairs. I've become very touchy about Clark's lore and mythology getting screwed with and taken apart by DC over the years.

    As I've said, Bendis has earned my trust and I expect/hope this will work out alright despite my concerns. Once I have the issue/s in hand it'll probably read just fine. We'll see. But I either vent my concerns and twenty-plus years of frustration with DC's handling of Clark here with you guys, or I bitch about it to my wife and.....well, I love her enough to not do that to her.
    The free trial expired. Tell her she'll be receiving our bill shortly

    But seriously, it's not as if I don't understand. Even when it's just the wording, it's still understandable to feel weird about the whole thing, and we are in fact doing away with him being part of that team. The general hope is that this is ultimately still really cool for Clark. And, at least by the sound of things, it can be.
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  13. #6883
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    The free trial expired. Tell her she'll be receiving our bill shortly

    But seriously, it's not as if I don't understand. Even when it's just the wording, it's still understandable to feel weird about the whole thing, and we are in fact doing away with him being part of that team. The general hope is that this is ultimately still really cool for Clark. And, at least by the sound of things, it can be.
    The biggest part of the whole thing that bugs me isn't immediate, it's what it tees up for DC editorial; not explicitly making them a response to Superman leads to the inevitable situation where Batman has a presence in the Legion which has usually been free of the Bat book's influence. Gag me when Karate Kid refers to "the ancient expert of combat, Batman" instead of his betters like Cass, Dragon or Shiva, not that I want much of that either (I'm fine if it's some big crossover where they visit like the Lightning saga, that makes sense there).

    This is true for other characters, but he's the one that is notorious for stepping into places he doesn't belong. I like Gotham. I like Batman. I just don't want them talking about him in what has always been a Superman inspired property. That Clark's the one who made it through time to inspire a generation was another thing that made him unique; it's not special if the entire JLA did it, and we all know which city invades a book when DC gets bored.

    I'm not sure Bendis would do it, but I'm certain it's coming. We made it like one issue before Lois Lane became deeply involved with Gotham City for Pete's sake. It's like there's no crime elsewhere.

    I love Bruce and when he teams up with Clark, but dammit I want Metropolis and it's characters to shine and they can't if DC keeps trying to define them using Gotham as a prism; goes double for the Legion.

    It turns Metropolis from it's own setting to "Gotham but if Superman was there," thus subordinate in nature. The future felt unique largely because outside Supes, it was a new place. They didn't even have Green Lanterns. I loved that.
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-19-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  14. #6884
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    I can't really speak to that at all, but Bendis is confirmed to be doing at least two continuations of legacy outside of Superman in the Legion. There's confirmed to be a (possibly blind) Gold Lantern, and a six armed new Doctor Fate on the Legion. So like, even if they're getting their actual power from some other line of legacy, they're, like Lightning Lad said, inspired to do this whole team thing by Superman's "Unity Day." And Aquaman's trident seems to have survived.

    And Dispenser of Truth has the theory that Mon-El is actually a decedent of Clark's because his 21st century phantom origin seems to be gone.

    But to be fair, adding in more of the DCU directly to the Legion isn't a new thing Bendis created. Johns' Superman and The Legion still has Wonder Woman statues sitting side by side with Superman's, Rainbow Girl now gets her powers from the Lantern established emotional light spectrum, and maybe the greatest of all, Earthman forms an actual Justice League based off the Justice League. Hell, in a Superman/Batman story Pre-52 Legion members Kent Shakespeare and Laurel Kent become the Superman and Superwoman of the 31st century alongside a new Batman and Robin that are still around.
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  15. #6885
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    To everyone I've been debating with.......there's totally no reason what so ever to go over and read the preview (basically last 4 pages) of Superman 14. I'll say it again: NO REASON WHAT SO EVER.

    Lol

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    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


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    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

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