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  1. #7651
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    I gotta say, I'm really not a fan of how this upcoming action comics "blockbuster" art sounds. Besides the incoming terrible art from Romita, I liked action being the more lowkey daily planet book that Bendis's strong suits were best on. I'll read it, but the most hate bendis gets are from the type of the stories like this.

  2. #7652
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    To be fair PostCrisis Superman didnĀ’t want Kara to go with Diana
    Oh yeah, that's true! Sorry, been a good long time since I read those issues and forgot that detail.

    My point still stands (as you yourself went into) but I did forget that detail about Kara's post-Crisis arrival.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Can i ask you something? Would you feel the same way if postcrisis guy didn't take over? Did you feel the same way during lois and clark when Clark's life for last 10 years was being told in 12 issues?
    I'd absolutely feel the same way. This isn't post-Crisis hate or anything. I'm not knocking any particular version of Superman. Which is actually kinda my point; in virtually every continuity, every version (including a lot of larger media adaptations), for most of a century, Clark's acted in a certain way when it comes to family. It's shown over and over again that Clark struggles with this and tends to push blood relations away. That's his character. That's what is true for the person of Clark Kent, whether it's post-Crisis or pre-Crisis or New52 or what the hell ever.

    So Superdad? It's out of character. And it's fine if people liked it, whatever. Hell, I enjoyed a lot of Tomasi's run too. But let's not pretend that Clark is and has always been a good dad, because that's a lie. And yeah, it makes me laugh when people talk about how "wrong" it is that Clark's made such big mistakes as a parent during Bendis' run. Because the writer who got it wrong was Tomasi.

    Now, Clark could grow and change and become a good father. Hell just by *keeping* Jon he's improved considerably! But that's still a 180 turnaround from eight decades of characterization. It's a pretty damn well established aspect of who Clark is. So if DC or Tomasi or whoever want me to believe that Clark's changed and grown in such drastic ways, they better earn that claim. And telling us "yeah, it all happened off camera" isn't earning a damn thing.
    Last edited by Ascended; 11-15-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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  3. #7653
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Yeah!i don't think tomasi got it wrong at all. It's just not the characterisation you like. You just like the crazed loner thing of precrisis. That's completely fine. But, i don't think postcrisis guy should be that.I don't think that's even intentional for superman to have shitty father troupe. I don't think it should be part of postcrisis characterisation. Especially, post crisis because He has no excuses for it. As said, he was overbearing towards supergirl.Even with death, cloning, relationship troubles .. Etc. He came to accept conner as family. There is absolutely nothing wrong with superdad. And Bendis's promise was to carry on what tomasi, jurgen and Gleason built. Not bring back characterisation that doesn't mesh from before 1985. It just doesn't fit. Postcrisis guy is the lovable farmboy from kansas.

    If anyone should have a cute family is that guy. Not the too smart and wierd for everyone precrisis guy. He isn't even the vigilante of goldenage. Muddying waters always creates these kinds of problems. I can't read something postcrisis without getting whiplash of clark suddenly becoming smart enough to create a new gods computer all of sudden. Why do this kind of nonsense?stick to a characterisation. Either write him as superintelligent being or just above average guy(in comics world ) . Superman can't be both.Nobody understands postcrisis superman better than jurgens. If he was fine with it then i am all for it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-15-2019 at 10:40 PM.

  4. #7654
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Okay, tell me what exactly then would you have him be teaching jon?if you have a reference for it give it to me. You and @korath always accuse of paternalism . Fine, tell me a non-paternalistic reference point that's fatherly. It's not about you liking jon,though.i never asked anyone to like jon. I just want to understand the other viewpoint because i simply don't get it. I don't get how all star superman or rebirth guy is paternalistic.
    But All-Star Superman is not paternalistic. Or, it might be better to say, there are some moments where he is seriously at risk of becoming paternalistic (including the scene with the suicidal girl), but Morrison and Quitely are such masterful storytellers and they execute the ideas so well that you never get the idea of a Superman giving bombastic speeches. This specific version of the character acts a lot a doesn't talk much, and there are moments - like Superman opening his hand with the mini-Kryptonian doctors to the characters AND the readers too - which simply work very well. Also, it is such a multi-layered story that you can reread it a dozen times and get a lot of different impressions each time. Isn't the Superman-God creating our world in All-Star Superman 10 somehow an ambiguous figure, since he gave birth to a universe full of dangers and suffering where he purposefully CHOOSES not to intervene? I'd say that also Joe Kelly's Superman was not paternalistic (well, for the most part), because Kelly attenuated the magniloquent moments with a lot of irony (real irony, not self-serving irony).
    Rebirth Superman is full of certainties and constantly talks, they created a narrative context where he is constantly presented as a wise authority figure even if a lot of what he says is just shallow and cheesy. I never got the idea of a realistic (even in a happy, optimistic context) father-son relationship. This recurring idea of presenting superheroes as exemplary figures is so risky and immature that it should be avoided at all costs. Getting a life lesson from a superhero speech is like using Coca Cola, or McDonald's, or a Wrestling match, as a moral point of reference. That's how idiotic initiatives like presenting Wonder Woman as a UN ambassador (in the real world) are born. It's not that you can't tell poignant and meaningful stories with superheroes - you can, but you must be VERY careful, make what the characters do significative and compelling because of the situation they live through, as it always happens with EVERY form of narrative, not because of what they pretend to teach. But let's stop now, for a run which I thoroughly hated it's as if I can't stop talking about Jon and SuperDad.
    Last edited by Myskin; 11-15-2019 at 11:10 PM.
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  5. #7655
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    I gotta say, I'm really not a fan of how this upcoming action comics "blockbuster" art sounds. Besides the incoming terrible art from Romita, I liked action being the more lowkey daily planet book that Bendis's strong suits were best on. I'll read it, but the most hate bendis gets are from the type of the stories like this.
    The art is going to be terrible, and that’s going to hurt the book I agree. I get that Bendis and Romita go way back but when you’re almost in the 30k’s as Bendis is, and you want to hype up your next big arc, you should not be using Romita. His covers looks absolutely terrible.

  6. #7656
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock420 View Post
    Zod and Ra’s teaming up is EXACTLY what I was hoping to happen after Kandor died. And it’s nice to see other Superman villains besides Lex getting used by other writers. And Derington is freaking great! Looking forward to this.

  7. #7657
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    But All-Star Superman is not paternalistic. Or, it might be better to say, there are some moments where he is seriously at risk of becoming paternalistic (including he scene with the suicidal girl), but Morrison and Quitely are such masterful storytellers and they execute the ideas so well that you never get the idea of a Superman giving bombastic speeches. This specific version of the character acts a lot a doesn't talk much, and there are moments - like Superman opening his hand with the mini-Kryptonian doctors to the characters AND the readers too - which simply work very well. Also, it is such a multi-layered story that you can reread it a dozen times and get a lot of different impressions each time. Isn't the Superman-God creating our world in All-Star Superman 10 somehow an ambiguous figure, since he gave birth to a universe full of dangers and suffering where he purposefully CHOOSES not to intervene? I'd say that also Joe Kelly's Superman was not paternalistic (well, for the most part), because Kelly attenuated the magniloquent moments with a lot of irony (real irony, not self-serving irony).
    Rebirth Superman is full of certainties and constantly talks, they created a narrative context where he is constantly presented as a wise authority figure even if a lot of what he says is just shallow and cheesy. I never got the idea of a realistic (even in a happy, optimistic context) father-son relationship. This recurring idea of presenting superheroes as exemplary figures is so risky and immature that it should be avoided at all costs. Getting a life lesson from a superhero speech is like using Coca Cola, or McDonald's, or a Wrestling match, as a moral point of reference. That's how idiotic initiatives like presenting Wonder Woman as a UN ambassador (in the real world) are born. It's not that you can't tell poignant and meaningful stories with superheroes - you can, but you must be VERY careful, make what the characters do significative and compelling because of the situation they live through, as it always happens with EVERY form of narrative, not because of what they pretend to teach. But let's stop now, for a run which I thoroughly hated it's as if I can't stop talking about Jon and SuperDad.
    i can get behind the talking part. But, when the most famous storyline this guy had is "what's so funny about truth, justice and the american way". its natural that people expect it. Many make a fuss when they don't get it. And unlike those stories which didn't even bother to address the issue genuinely. This is nowhere as faulty. Things were pretty confined to taking responsibility for yourself like doing chores before going gallivanting across other dimensions. As for uncertainties and other subtleties, that's not something i expected from a story that comes out back to back as biweekly without much of an end point. I didn't expect pa kent to say "i don't know" after saying something like "you are here for a reason" every single time you know. I just went with it. But, i can understand getting irked by it. It's like when naruto would give his talk no jutsu over and over again. It's full of idealisms and he is very confident. Also, i didn't say you said all star was paternalistic. But @korath did. It is the same accusation. I still don't think rebirth superman was paternalistic. He never tried to control Jon's life like that. I was don't think realism was anything they were going for at any level even emotional one. It's more about Disney fairy tale-esque vibe.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-16-2019 at 12:13 AM.

  8. #7658
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    i can get behind the talking part. But, when the most famous storyline this guy had is "what's so funny about truth, justice and the american way".
    That specific story works - until the very end - exactly because it shows Superman's crisis in a meaningful way. In it, Superman is a character, not a teacher. He lives through a very specific situation. The ending is more muddled, it poses a question without ever really answering it and the final moment ends in a rhetorical speech, even if it could be argued that a matter as complex as the use of lethal force cannot have a final, definitive answer. But 90% of the story works, because Kelly - who, as far as I am concerned, is in the same league as Morrison in the right stories - creates such a compelling setup and interesting characters that there is a reason for the story to be so memorable. In general though, most superhero comic books are rhetorical and cornily educational. Not even fairy tales are so preachy, even when they serve an educational purpose, because they use situations and narrative solutions and the moral of the story comes at the end (and sometimes it's a bitter lesson). The only form of narration which adopts so strongly the same approach superheroes use is, as far as I can think, Saturday Morning Cartoons or TV specials.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  9. #7659
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Holy shit! ALEX GARNER is the new variant artist for Legion!

    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

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  10. #7660
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah!i don't think tomasi got it wrong at all. It's just not the characterisation you like. You just like the crazed loner thing of precrisis. That's completely fine. But, i don't think postcrisis guy should be that.
    You got it all wrong actually. I used to think Clark would be a great father and I started out as a hardcore post-Crisis fan. That's the era I came up with, the Death-Return triangle era was my first exposure to the comics and for like, ten years I never missed a single issue. That was my guy. And I thought the same way you did.

    Then I started to really look at the character; not what I wanted/expected Clark to be or the emotional resonance of a story but what was actually on the page. I dont intend to sound mean here, we all have our preferences and I'm not attacking anyone for that, but the characterization that is on the page itself? Including post-Crisis? Clark's bad with family. That's just basic literary analysis and it's not very hard to see it. That's not a matter of what I want, that's who Clark is, and it's established over and over again. Not seeing it is just blinding yourself to an aspect of the character you don't like.

    If you don't like it, that's cool. No one said you had to. But that's who Clark is. What you (or I) want is immaterial; apply some basic lit analysis and you'll see that I'm right. Or you can just read the last couple pages of this thread; myself and others have all mentioned the many, many times Clark, including post-Crisis, failed at family (he does do it right on occasion too; he's not 100% horrible). You don't have to like it, but let's not pretend it's not who he is, because eighty years of stories tell us otherwise.

    So yeah, Tomasi got it wrong. He just got it wrong in a way you enjoyed. Which doesn't change the fact he got it wrong. And we can say that, in the ten years we never saw, Clark changed and grew and became a better father. I got no issue with a character growing and changing. But that is a huge change to how Clark has always been written (including post-Crisis, stop thinking this is a pre- versus post-Crisis thing, because it's not, Clark's struggle with blood relatives isn't limited to any particular version!) and for me, you don't get to sweep a change that big under the rug and then say it's okay. If you're going to change how Clark interacts with people to that big a degree then readers deserve to see that change unfold; otherwise it's not character growth, it's just writing Clark out of character and making excuses for it.

    Oh, and the scene you posted with Pa Kent? Doesn't apply. Clark's always had a good relationship with the Kents. What he struggles with is blood relations like Kara and Conner and people like Valor, not his adopted parents.
    Last edited by Ascended; 11-16-2019 at 08:44 AM.
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  11. #7661
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Holy shit! ALEX GARNER is the new variant artist for Legion!

    Ugh I feel like I just witnessed the unveiling of a new type of raspberry cake. It tempts me to go and get the first cheung variant to match up.
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  12. #7662
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The art is going to be terrible, and that’s going to hurt the book I agree. I get that Bendis and Romita go way back but when you’re almost in the 30k’s as Bendis is, and you want to hype up your next big arc, you should not be using Romita. His covers looks absolutely terrible.
    Yeah, I'm not sure what's happened to Romita lately. His work just doesn't seem as polished as it used to .
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Holy shit! ALEX GARNER is the new variant artist for Legion!

    Another artist who can make these Legion designs work .

  13. #7663
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    If this reveal does anything, I hope it boots "mild mannered reporter Clark Kent" out. It's immensely charming in old stories, and AoS (my favorite live action Superman), but in 2019 it doesnt work. It's also never written well, with most writers either not caring about it or not having any idea how to write modern journalists. Tomasi's run felt like it took place in a weird fever dream or something, just no semblance of real life or human emotion.

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  14. #7664
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    If this reveal does anything, I hope it boots "mild mannered reporter Clark Kent" out. It's immensely charming in old stories, and AoS (my favorite live action Superman), but in 2019 it doesnt work. It's also never written well, with most writers either not caring about it or not having any idea how to write modern journalists. Tomasi's run felt like it took place in a weird fever dream or something, just no semblance of real life or human emotion.
    Maybe not "Mild mannered" in the way Reeves was, but I think there are ways to capture it in a modern context.

  15. #7665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You got it all wrong actually. I used to think Clark would be a great father and I started out as a hardcore post-Crisis fan. That's the era I came up with, the Death-Return triangle era was my first exposure to the comics and for like, ten years I never missed a single issue. That was my guy. And I thought the same way you did.

    Then I started to really look at the character; not what I wanted/expected Clark to be or the emotional resonance of a story but what was actually on the page. I dont intend to sound mean here, we all have our preferences and I'm not attacking anyone for that, but the characterization that is on the page itself? Including post-Crisis? Clark's bad with family. That's just basic literary analysis and it's not very hard to see it. That's not a matter of what I want, that's who Clark is, and it's established over and over again. Not seeing it is just blinding yourself to an aspect of the character you don't like.

    If you don't like it, that's cool. No one said you had to. But that's who Clark is. What you (or I) want is immaterial; apply some basic lit analysis and you'll see that I'm right. Or you can just read the last couple pages of this thread; myself and others have all mentioned the many, many times Clark, including post-Crisis, failed at family (he does do it right on occasion too; he's not 100% horrible). You don't have to like it, but let's not pretend it's not who he is, because eighty years of stories tell us otherwise.

    So yeah, Tomasi got it wrong. He just got it wrong in a way you enjoyed. Which doesn't change the fact he got it wrong. And we can say that, in the ten years we never saw, Clark changed and grew and became a better father. I got no issue with a character growing and changing. But that is a huge change to how Clark has always been written (including post-Crisis, stop thinking this is a pre- versus post-Crisis thing, because it's not, Clark's struggle with blood relatives isn't limited to any particular version!) and for me, you don't get to sweep a change that big under the rug and then say it's okay. If you're going to change how Clark interacts with people to that big a degree then readers deserve to see that change unfold; otherwise it's not character growth, it's just writing Clark out of character and making excuses for it.

    Oh, and the scene you posted with Pa Kent? Doesn't apply. Clark's always had a good relationship with the Kents. What he struggles with is blood relations like Kara and Conner and people like Valor, not his adopted parents.
    Again.

    Clark is bad in these relationships, because the writers want characters like Conner and Kara (and teen Jon) to be more independent. They want Clark to be apart of these characters.

    "Clark not taking care of his blood relatives" isn't a flaw the writers see in the character, it is just the more convenient for their stories.

    Superdad (or something similar) is what happens when the writers want Clark to take care of a person and form a true relationship.

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