Official : Bendis gets both books

[manwhohaseverything]

Nobody would like to see that (or maybe someone would, just for fun). But you can create a build-up in a lot of different ways. This character was just there, all of a sudden, impossible to ignore. One of the reasons I don't care much about some people complaining about Jon's age-up is that just a couple of years before the exact same thing, possibly even more traumatic, happened with Jon's introduction and SuperDad replacing New52 Superman. It's the same trick. Once you accept such an unforeseen change as a narrative possibility, complaining about DC playing the same card twice is pretty useless.

Damian was there out of the blue as well. Most legacy characters are like that.
The problem with this is that they don't see it like that. They see it like this. Superdad and Jon's origin story-read convergence, lois and clark. You are basically caught up. It can function like one effectively. They think that was the origin and this, the current status quo.Unforseen change has been part of the narrative since birthright. That's a whole different issue. But, Rebirth's promise was stability(anti reboot) , history.. Etc. Which meant expectation of this status quo lasting a long while .People got suckered in. It's not like people knew this was going to happen and They were going to return to form.
Again age up is forgivable,if bendis actually got Jon's voice correctly and superparents didn't become comicbook version of goku all of a sudden. Jon just lack any personality now. Before he was goofy, energetic, spunky.. Etc. The stories were like that of a shonen protagonist exploring his world.which i must admit it still might be,If a certain theory is true.

[MeGrimlock420]

Solicitations for February 2020

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-solici...february-2020/

[Myskin]

Damian was there out of the blue as well. Most legacy characters are like that.

But Damian wasn't, and IMHO still isn't, part of a family the way they presented Jon since his first appearance. He appeared all of a sudden, but the characters were taken by surprise too. Part of the enjoyment for the reader was sharing Batman and Alfred's difficulties in having to deal with a situation which was entirely different for them too, especially since Damian is a jerk who apparently goes against a lot of things Batman stands for. Damian's death is touching because it is the final step in a long process of Damian learning to be a son, coherent with Batman's creed. When Jon appeared, SuperDad and Lois already had a strongly consolidated routine. Worst of all, he gave Superman an excuse to teach him a lot of corny, cheesy life lessons as if they were pearls of wisdom, and nothing is worse than a paternalistic Superman.

[Superlad93]

Solicitations for February 2020

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-solici...february-2020/

* Damn Superman 20 sounds like a great time. It'll be fun to get some classic Superman villains in this run. I probably should've guessed Mongol would show up in a bigger role this run. Bendis maybe him a pretty fun gag before to set up Naomi, but that seemed to also be there to prime us for seeing him again.

* I'm in wait and see mode with Action as far as the Invisible War goes. It's not that I don't think it'll be good, but rather that I'm waiting for it to get me hype.

* Not gonna lie, I'm kind of bothered by Williamson putting hands on not just Zod, but also the idea of Kandor. The solicit and the cover have a very misdirect-y feel to it, so I won't judge. What I really hope for is that Zod is going to Ra's for the locations of a Lazarus pit in hopes of reviving Kandor. If it's a viable option will be the story. But regardless I don't want anyone messing with Magneto Zod !

* Really cool to see Walker as cowriter for YJ.

* Lois and Jimmy never stop being quality books.

* Glad we're getting the Legion origin story within the first few issues. That's a good move.

* Justice League sounds like a transition run before 5G and while Snyder gears up for Crisis. That book's line up (both characters and creative team) feel like they're gonna change.

* Super hype for the Villains one-shot!

[manwhohaseverything]

But Damian wasn't, and IMHO still isn't, part of a family the way they presented Jon since his first appearance. He appeared all of a sudden, but the characters were taken by surprise too. Part of the enjoyment for the reader was sharing Batman and Alfred's difficulties in having to deal with a situation which was entirely different for them too, especially since Damian is a jerk who apparently stands against a lot of things Batman stands for. Damian's death is touching because it is the final step in a long process of Damian learning to be a son, coherent with Batman's creed. When Jon appeared, SuperDad and Lois already had a strongly consolidated routine. Worst of all, he gave Superman an excuse to teach him a lot of corny, cheesy life lessons as if they were pearls of wisdom, and nothing is worse than a paternalistic Superman.

maybe it's because i am a manga guy. Timeskips fairly regular in mangas. You might not like cheesy life lessons. Many enjoyed it.what do you expect to teach a 10 year old? Base ball? well, he did that as well. in stratosphere, i might add. And it is better than sending kid of with a lunatic. That's just bad. As for adjustment, that was an on going process. It was very much evident . Clark had unpredictable kid with physiology that is different from his own to work through. on top of that the struggle was to let the kid have a balanced life. That was the draw. The idea is to view superman through the eyes of child. Not viewing a child through superman's eyes. It works fairly well in that regards. Jimmy can't fulfil that purpose anymore. Only a child can. Superman got popular because of max fleischer cartoons not because he was dealing with complex social issues.They were for kids. Simplistic ideas work better for that.

[Frontier]

Solicitations for February 2020

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-solici...february-2020/

I'm...fairly apprehensive at Bendis writing Mongol. Especially with that one line in the solicit.

Ra's and Zod share similar roles in their respective heroes' Rogues Gallery so I guess this might be the only chance we have to see them team-up.

[Myskin]

maybe it's because i am a manga guy. Timeskips fairly regular in mangas. You might not like cheesy life lessons. Many enjoyed it.what do you expect to teach a 10 year old? Base ball? well, he did that as well. in stratosphere, i might add. And it is better than sending kid of with a lunatic. That's just bad. As for adjustment, that was an on going process. It was very much evident . Clark had unpredictable kid with physiology that is different from his own to work through. on top of that the struggle was to let the kid have a balanced life. That was the draw. The idea is to view superman through the eyes of child. Not viewing a child through superman's eyes. It works fairly well in that regards. Jimmy can't fulfil that purpose anymore. Only a child can. Superman got popular because of max fleischer cartoons not because he was dealing with complex social issues.They were for kids. Simplistic ideas work better for that.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I have heard the motivations of people who like Jon many, many, many times and no, I am not convinced and I will never be. If you like him fine, you probably have enjoyed the Rebirth era more than I did, but the mere thought of some of Superman's "lessons" in that run makes me shudder. It's not the time skip (I read mangas too even if I like very specific authors), I firmly believe that there is a huge difference between simplistic and simple, it's not about social issues and it's not about seeing something through a child's eyes. I simply can't stand this specific child, this specific way of giving lessons and this approach to describe a father/son relationship. I can't stand this paternalistic version of Superman which per se is nothing new, it's the same Superman who gave cloying life lessons in the Silver Age, just with an additional justification to do so, that his being a father. I am utterly convinced that there are like millions of more interesting ways to depict a family or even a childlike attitude, even in comic books, and there are thousands of comics which are more interesting and sophisticated. I think that the exchanges between Lois, Superman and Jon in that run are just a bunch of clichés, phony representations, stereotypes which are constantly present in US pop culture. As far as I am concerned, IF there is a vague chance that I will ever like Jon, it will happen in Bendis' next issues if I am patient enough to read them, but not by re-reading Tomasi's run (the villains were fine though) or even watching a CW TV series (ESPECIALLY because it is a CW TV series).

[Tzigone]

They let their ten year old son run off with a man who, the last time they saw him, was a straight up villain. Just because he cried about the big kids not letting him play with them (a rejection that he still completely misunderstood but that's an argument for another day). And for what? So Jor El could teach him things Clark was already teaching him? How was anyone in this situation acting in character? Even Jon was being unusually stupid (though he at least admits, later on, that it was a bad idea)

Even if Bendis had given them time to think about it, the only way to make this whole thing in character would have been for Clark to go with them....and not leave after a few days like Mom of the year did.

I agree that is horrible and OOC. What's even worse, is that Lois left Jon with Jor-El, even though her assessment of Jor-El at that time was not at all positive. I mean, she said as much. And I get that she can't physically oppose Jor-El (though I'd prefer a Lois that tried), but then she didn't even immediately tell Clark about so he could go get their kid from the psycho. And her not wanting to contact him because of the danger made absolutely no sense in light of her making her presence back on earth known to others by turning in the book. Unless something changed after that - I quit reading shortly after Jon came back grown (not immediately, but soon) because I had such problems with the characterization.

[Cmbmool]

To be fair PostCrisis Superman didn’t want Kara to go with Diana and was very protective of her. Pre Crisis Superman is the dick who made Kara go live in an orphanage because she could expose him otherwise lmao. But Post Crisis Superman was a dick to Kon and basically gave him the cold shoulder for a while until he finally decided to treat Kon like family. So Kal being a standoffish guy who isn’t very good at raising kids has ground in both Pre and Post Crisises.

Even I have to ask and wonder: Why don't we get a true SUperman family team up story or downtime which them just in a family gather for an issue or two and trying to bond with each other ?

[Cmbmool]

But Damian wasn't, and IMHO still isn't, part of a family the way they presented Jon since his first appearance. He appeared all of a sudden, but the characters were taken by surprise too. Part of the enjoyment for the reader was sharing Batman and Alfred's difficulties in having to deal with a situation which was entirely different for them too, especially since Damian is a jerk who apparently goes against a lot of things Batman stands for. Damian's death is touching because it is the final step in a long process of Damian learning to be a son, coherent with Batman's creed. When Jon appeared, SuperDad and Lois already had a strongly consolidated routine. Worst of all, he gave Superman an excuse to teach him a lot of corny, cheesy life lessons as if they were pearls of wisdom, and nothing is worse than a paternalistic Superman.

Death can change a person as it has done to Damian in a way...right ?

[Superlad93]

But....like....what did Jor-El actually do to Jon outside of making Jon feel really sorry for him?

He didn't toss him in a black hole nor are we lead to assume that he facilitated it (quite the opposite really).

By all accounts Jor-El said he wanted to help Jon understand himself and the galaxy, and that he'd have him back to Lois and Clark safe. We saw nothing to suggest he wasn't going to honor that had the black hole not shown up.

Jor-El's biggest and only slight against Jon is being sad old man who has trouble getting his feelings across. And even then he apologizes, and Jon apologizes back for writing off his grandpa so quickly.

And in reality Jor-El had Jon out there for just under a month.

[Yoda]

But....like....what did Jor-El actually do to Jon outside of making Jon feel really sorry for him?

He didn't toss him in a black hole nor are we lead to assume that he facilitated it (quite the opposite really).

By all accounts Jor-El said he wanted to help Jon understand himself and the galaxy, and that he'd have him back to Lois and Clark safe. We saw nothing to suggest he wasn't going to honor that had the black hole not shown up.

Jor-El's biggest and only slight against Jon is being sad old man who has trouble getting his feelings across. And even then he apologizes, and Jon apologizes back for writing off his grandpa so quickly.

And in reality Jor-El had Jon out there for just under a month.

He got in the equivalent of a car accident. This is what I don't really understand about all this criticism. If Clark and Lois had been with him, there's no indication that anything different would have happened, it would have been the same outcome.

And Lois really only called Jor El a "piece of work" or things along that lines. Basic in-law criticisms, but nothing indicating she ever thought he was dangerous.

[Superlad93]

He got in the equivalent of a car accident. This is what I don't really understand about all this criticism. If Clark and Lois had been with him, there's no indication that anything different would have happened, it would have been the same outcome.

Exactly.

Jor-El even finds out that the reason for the black hole was the breaking of the Source Wall. He has literally nothing to do with that black hole. This could've even happened if he were out on a mission with Clark. The black hole is an outside force in all of this.

Then of course we know that Jor-El spends years and years pushing his mind to the limit looking for him.

Like actual parents would, some fans need some character to blame, but Jor-El isn't it. Jor-El did right by Jon.

[Sam]

Uh, no. Jor-El essentially kidnaped Jon...twice. Once during the Oz Effect when he was trying to destroy the world. Sure he was crazy and brainwashed, but this was the only context either Lois or Clark knew him under. They gave their child to someone who they only knew as a dude who tried to destroy the world and take their child without their permission. You would at least need a period of time to build up trust before you give your only child over to this maniac. The second time, of course, being when he wouldn't take Jon home. Yes, Jon told him that it was all fine and he didn't need to go home, but Jon is a kid. The onus is not on him to tell Jor-El what he needs. The onus is on freaking Jor-El to be the responsible adult and bring the kid home regardless, especially if you also happened to cause an intergalatic war that might become an issue later. It's also your responsiblity to watch the skies for black holes, and stay in touch with the actual parents of the child. If communication is suddenly cut off, you don't stop until you reunite the kid with his parents. It's not as clearly apparent as if Jor-El was beating the child, but that doesn't mean he didn't fail as a caretaker. To say Jor-El wasn't being irresponsible is simply inaccurate. To say Clark and Lois would super wrong to let Jon go off with Jor-El is also inaccurate. It doesn't matter though, since none of this was about the characters acting rationally. It was about getting Jon from point A to point B and not bothering to do it in a way that didn't make the characters look like jerks.

I should probably add that irresponsible caretakers of kids is something that sets me off. Hence, the forcefulness of my comment.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't want to sound harsh, but I have heard the motivations of people who like Jon many, many, many times and no, I am not convinced and I will never be. If you like him fine, you probably have enjoyed the Rebirth era more than I did, but the mere thought of some of Superman's "lessons" in that run makes me shudder. It's not the time skip (I read mangas too even if I like very specific authors), I firmly believe that there is a huge difference between simplistic and simple, it's not about social issues and it's not about seeing something through a child's eyes. I simply can't stand this specific child, this specific way of giving lessons and this approach to describe a father/son relationship. I can't stand this paternalistic version of Superman which per se is nothing new, it's the same Superman who gave cloying life lessons in the Silver Age, just with an additional justification to do so, that his being a father. I am utterly convinced that there are like millions of more interesting ways to depict a family or even a childlike attitude, even in comic books, and there are thousands of comics which are more interesting and sophisticated. I think that the exchanges between Lois, Superman and Jon in that run are just a bunch of clichés, phony representations, stereotypes which are constantly present in US pop culture. As far as I am concerned, IF there is a vague chance that I will ever like Jon, it will happen in Bendis' next issues if I am patient enough to read them, but not by re-reading Tomasi's run (the villains were fine though) or even watching a CW TV series (ESPECIALLY because it is a CW TV series).

Okay, tell me what exactly then would you have him be teaching jon?if you have a reference for it give it to me. You and @korath always accuse of paternalism . Fine, tell me a non-paternalistic reference point that's fatherly. It's not about you liking jon,though.i never asked anyone to like jon. I just want to understand the other viewpoint because i simply don't get it. I don't get how all star superman or rebirth guy is paternalistic.
Edit- anyways, we where discussing time jumps not this. I disagree, that there was anything that had not seen a run-down