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  1. #8341
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    https://www.cbr.com/legion-of-super-...true-superman/

    Oh, yay. More stuff Jon fans didn't want and Clark fans will hate. Making Jon the "real Superman".
    That's nonsense.ok,what the heck is a real superman? Does this have anything to do with the car from 1938 in action comics? Does this mean goldenage superman will be making an appearance?

  2. #8342
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Isn't it just a play on the quote "one true king" with king swapped out for Superman?

    I mean, Jon's journey up to this point kind of mirrors beats from Arthurian myth, and Lion King (itself inspired by Arthurian myth) in particular.

    No one remembers the "one true king" scene from Lion King? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGQnGQzlAmA

    Similar to Arthur and Simba, Jon comes of age away from his parents, grows up in harder conditions than he was born into, and he unites the "kingdom" (in this case the galaxy). More similar to Arthur though, he's whisked away by an old "wizard" stand-in (Jor-El) and that's what sets him on his path, and-- due to the fact that it's people in the future talking about it-- there's a "prophecy" foretelling his ascension to the "throne".

    I mean, there's literally a scene in issue 7 of Superman where Jor-El flat out tells Lois that being married to Superman makes her royalty as far as the galaxy is concerned. And now we're getting "The House of Kent" coming up in Action Comics. Clark essentially built a royal family from scratch without even realizing by just being his best self.

    Incidentally, this makes my "Space Prince" nickname for Jon EXTREMELY spot-on all of a sudden.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-01-2020 at 11:21 PM.
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  3. #8343
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Huh.
    Makes you think, right? Probably easier to advertise the Legion once Jon goes back home and they're out a Superboy/Superman if they have a 31st century Superman who is a person of color slapped on the front cover turning some perspective reader heads. But like I said, it's just my theory that I'm hanging onto, and this proves nothing.
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  4. #8344
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    If that is what the context of the line is. Then shouldn't, it be put more specific. By that i mean, the lack of a motif like the sword or a shadow image. This more or less feels like gary-stuish, than the parallel being apparent. Furthermore, arthur and simba both grew up as orphans and never actually meet their fathers again in most legends . Simba's father was killed. The throne was empty. Here, it isn't. The use of the word "real" doesn't work. There is only one true superman as long as he is alive or decides to leave it that's kal el.

  5. #8345
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Furthermore, arthur and simba both grew up as orphans and never actually meet their fathers again in most legends . Simba's father was killed. The throne was empty. Here, it isn't.
    And? Superman's not *literally* a king, but the parallel is very clearly made in story. Why would you assume the parallels would need to be *exact* to function as parallels? Clearly it's not going to be the same *exact* story. Lion King is inspired by Hamlet, yet is clearly not Hamlet. That doesn't stop it from being inspired by Hamlet and having some cherry picked parallels to the classic Shakespearean play.

    There is only one true superman as long as he is alive or decides to leave it that's kal el.
    Not to kids in the 31st century who view Jon's founding of the United Planets as the single greatest act in the age of heroes, and the reason they have the lives they do.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-01-2020 at 11:11 PM.
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  6. #8346
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And? Superman's not *literally* a king, but the parallel is very clearly made in story. Why would you assume the parallels would need to be *exact* to function as parallels? Clearly it's not going to be the same *exact* story. You're one step away from arguing semantics. Lion King is inspired by Hamlet, yet is clearly not Hamlet. That doesn't stop it from being inspired by Hamlet and having some cherry picked parallels to the classic Shakespearean play.



    Not to kids in the 31st century who view Jon's founding of the United Planets as the single greatest act in the age of heroes, and the reason they have the lives they do.
    I am not talking about being a king. I am talking absense of a motif which signifies something and can work as a foreshadowing. See, the stories signify power vacuum leading to absolute anarchy. If the lion king or arthurian legends are taken as the base of the story structure.Clark kent needs to be out of commission. Either he is dead or he is ineffective as superman. Therefore a true superman must emerge to take place and confront chaos. This is'nt the case with jon. Superman is here. He is clark. Throne isn't empty,is figurative speech. Jon has done no feat to earn it and there has been no foreshadowing of jon's legend. Jon isn't an orphan either. He doesn't have to fill any shoes.

    That also means,Clark as a symbol and as superman hasn't been able to stand the test of time. Jon's legend as superman is be all and end all. For the readers and many superman fans the concept would be pretty hard to get over. Why? Kal el is the main protagonist and superman. His stories being less significant than a new rookie, is going to be hard to digest, especially without the foreshadwing or motifs. It would be jarring.As you said, there is no prophecy. This was the prophecy basically . We only knew jon was gonna be superman because of 5G.But,foreshadowings till now never made it as though jon is true or real superman. He was a superman. Now, he is the superman. Which meant clark kent meant something to the people of future. Now, he will be less so with this statement and revelation .

    Granted, aquaman's trident being used by jon can be seen as a foreshadowing. I had basically said the same when that issue came out. But, people here said it isn't much of a feat and anyone can use it. In lion king, there is a motif of mirrors and shadows which signifies simba's changes. In arthurian legends, its the sword in the stone. We have not been exposed to any such things. Granted, we talked about Superman sword. But, it was only a wish of my for jon to snatch it and stop it's universal travels. Even, that hasn't been introduced. There is a motif in one piece as well, its the straw hat. For superman it was the el symbol crystal key in donner movies and snyder movies. (there was no arthurian inspiration in the original siegel and shuster superman origin)
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 12:19 AM.

  7. #8347
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am not talking about being a king.
    I'm aware you're not. That was an example of an indirect parallel. And that's my point.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-02-2020 at 12:17 AM.
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  8. #8348
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'm aware you're not. That was an example of an indirect parallel. And that's my point.
    Direct or indirect,the parallel doesn't work. The thor books did the same thing with jane thor. It follows this troupe and what it did was thor became unworthy. Jane was made into the thor. It made thor into a title,for the specific purpose(controversial ) . They used the hammer motif. Which was already intrinsic.

    Here superman is already a title like a king, a knight,.. Etc. It changes hands and is allowed to. But, the problem is clark kent hasn't fallen in anyway to be unworthy of being superman, either through death or shortcomings. Neither is there any motif being used. To anticipate what is to come. For readers, there is only one superman that is clark kent. Because there isn't title vacumm nor is the title officially handed down.

    In one piece, shanks loses his arm. Why is that sacrifice required? Its the same deal. He is betting on the future. When jor el sends clark of, the key or the crystal is the motif. Krypton, Jor el and lara, the sacrifice. Uther pendragon sacrifices raising the kid, and bets on the child being the future. The motif is the sword. With simba sacrifice is mufasa and the motif is the shadow of mufasa that simba sees in himself,in the water and in the clouds. Here, the same thing can be said with oz and clark. But, there isn't a motif.which basically leaves audiences with nothing.



    it would be jarring for superman fans to know that the legend of superman is connected to jon kent, rather than clark in the future. Because the execution is pretty bad if he meant or is using this structure.

    Edit-sorry, if i am repeating things or you feel like i am talking down. I just sometimes have wierd feeling or thinking that, people don't get what i am saying and so i repeat stuff. The point is bolded.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 01:24 AM.

  9. #8349
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    I think if one has followed Jon's journey under Bendis from the Superman title (starting with The Man of Steel) to the Legion up to this point the phrasing being evocative of the idea of "ascending to the throne" are both consistent and clear with fairly overt parallels. And I feel like the stipulations you've put in place for what can constitute a parallel miss the point of what "inspired by" can mean in a literary sense.

    Put simply: if issue 7 of Superman unambiguously says that to the greater galaxy Superman is royalty, and the people of the 31st century have been operating with that baseline thinking for 1000 years along with a literal line of succession of Supermen, then it's no wonder their choice in vernacular is analogues to speaking of a kingly myth.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-02-2020 at 07:06 AM.
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  10. #8350
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I think if one has followed Jon's journey under Bendis from the Superman title (starting with The Man of Steel) to the Legion up to this point the phrasing being evocative of the idea of "ascending to the throne" are both consistent and clear with fairly overt parallels. And I feel like the stipulations you've put in place for what can constitute a parallel miss the point of what "inspired by" can mean in a literary sense.

    Put simply: if issue 7 of Superman unambiguously says that to the greater galaxy Superman is royalty, and the people of the 31st century have been operating with that baseline thinking for 1000 years along with a literal line of succession of Supermen, then it's no wonder their choice in vernacular is analogues to speaking of a kingly myth.
    True, they did say superman is royalty. But, the character that sequence was centered around wasn't jon, it was lois. It didn't tie back to jon in anyway. Ascending to any throne require abdication of it by the previous owner. I have said, bendis has thus far only been forshadowing jon as a superman. That's acceptable. unlike a king, there can be two supermen or knights. But here, narrative has shifted rather swiftly and in a jarring fashion.It is going to cement the superman for a future generation(in universe). It makes superman title something like the title king, than a knight. Only one is allowed. That requires better reasoning on why and how. Why is jon required to take the throne? Since, clark is here(currently) as superman. How is he insufficient? There is no foreshadowing of Clark's fall of any kind.

    See, the motifs are always helpful in that it helps grab attention of readers and direct it towards particular aspect of the story. In stories like these, it's symbol of passage of the title. Suppose, jon does become the superman. How will the audience know the moment of passage? What will he get? A new costume was being shown. But, that's rather underwhelming. He is already wearing a costume, it would only be an upgrade. It wouldn't be a transformation nor a crowning moment of a character.Crowning moments require the motifs.superman gets the costume(clark never wore the coat of arms before) with with the key from jor el. Clark kent transforms into superman. Similarly

    This is what a crowning moment is.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  11. #8351
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    True, they did say superman is royalty. But, the character that sequence was centered around wasn't jon, it was lois. It didn't tie back to jon in anyway.
    I genuinely think this is an odd statement to make. Obviously it ties back to Jon. Jon is recognized by multiple people around the galaxy in the book (meaning there are multiple examples) as Superman's son. If Superman is royalty (a "king") then by the implied line of succession of royalty, Jon is a prince and next in line to the "throne". It genuinely couldn't be more straight forward of a comparison. And, again, it has textual backing to it.


    I have said, bendis has thus far only been forshadowing jon as a superman. That's acceptable. unlike a king, there can be two supermen or knights.
    Then how bout you wait to see if Clark will still go by Superman if/when Jon becomes Superman? It's a story still in progress.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-02-2020 at 12:20 PM.
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  12. #8352
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I genuinely think this is an odd statement to make. Obviously it ties back to Jon. Jon is recognized by multiple people around the galaxy in the book (meaning there are multiple examples) as Superman's son. If Superman is royalty (a "king") then by the implied line of succession of royalty, Jon is a prince and next in line to the "throne". It genuinely couldn't be more straight forward of a comparison. And, again, it has textual backing to it.
    .
    Well, that was pretty normal for jon to be recognised as such. It wasn't a moment of discovery or transformation. It was only for lois.Heck!Jon getting the cape is more of a crowning moment in lois and clark. Jon had already got el family signia. Bendis basically uses it as his motif. Which is where he fails. See, the el family signia is the norm for jon. The transformation factor is lost.With simba, he never truly caught his shadow. Simba ran from it because it was mufasa. Then rafiki makes him see himself in the water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Then how bout you wait to see if Clark will still go by Superman if/when Jon becomes Superman? It's a story still in progress
    It doesn't really matter if clark goes by Superman. Why? The story shifted to the attributes of the title itself. If a statement like real superman or true superman is being used. A hierarchy of importance is made and clark will be at the bottom of it, while jon at the top. Which till now wasn't the case is what i am saying.

  13. #8353
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, that was pretty normal for jon to be recognised as such. It wasn't a moment of discovery or transformation.
    Alright, I'm done. All you've been doing is moving the goal post. At this point we're not even talking about the same thing. So, yeah, I'm done with this. See ya.
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  14. #8354
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Alright, I'm done. All you've been doing is moving the goal post. At this point we're not even talking about the same thing. So, yeah, I'm done with this. See ya.
    Ok. I didn't move any goal post. i was always talking about the crowning moment. Why would i even post a video of arthur picking up a trident if i was'nt? Fair enough, jon is next in line to be superman.But, that was always been said that jon is prospective candidate for the title as a superman Even before jon's space trip. But, He doesn't become the "real" superman(king like title) , just because he is next in line to be a superman(knight like title) .Whenever bendis had forshadowed it. It was always the later, not the former. Which suddenly changed . A knight is royalty as well. Furthermore, kings require a crowning moment or motif foreshadowing that moment from the start. That sequence with lois meant nothing from jon's perspective.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-02-2020 at 02:42 PM.

  15. #8355
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Makes you think, right? Probably easier to advertise the Legion once Jon goes back home and they're out a Superboy/Superman if they have a 31st century Superman who is a person of color slapped on the front cover turning some perspective reader heads. But like I said, it's just my theory that I'm hanging onto, and this proves nothing.
    At this point I don't think making Ultra Boy the 31st-century Superman would really have much impact (to me it would just be random), but it could work in the context of Bendis' Legion. I'd personally prefer it as a thematic thing, although then I wonder what Mon-El's there for.

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