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  1. #8371
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ultraboy is not a new character. He's been around since 1962 (first appearing in Superboy issue #98 as a counterpart to Superboy).
    I wasn't talking about him. I've heard rumors DC might want to use a totally original character. Perhaps I should have clarified that in my post. Still, I'd prefer (a version of) Val to Ultraboy for the "New Superman" but to each their own.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-04-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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  2. #8372
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    In my opinion, yeah, you could've gone either way. Both are very similar to Superman/Superboy. I could totally see a situation where new version of Mon-El (who was a person of color) got the role, yeah. But I think the important bit of difference is just how different Ultra Boy is from Superman/Superboy. Ultraboy has no link to Krypton, the yellow sun, or a weakness to a compound or substance, and his powers, while being similar, are functionally different with a built-in sense of stakes to them. Because of that I feel like Ultraboy is the smarter and more interesting choice if this is your goal.
    It just kind of sounds to me like jumping through hoops to make Ultra Boy fit into a niche that is, traditionally, meant to be Mon-El's if it's ever anyone's. So I'm just not convinced of the necessity.
    But it's also the kind of franchise that's unfortunately been dormant for years, and not at all on the general public's radar when not involving someone with the word Super in their name for long (that's the just the facts of how WB/DC like to use them 90% of the time). Simply graduating one of the (to outside looking in) Superman/Superboy clones/variations on the team to an actual Superman in the 31st century gives you that connection while not being totally beholden to a Superman or Superman character with their own franchise to return to. It's a functionality thing imo.
    I wonder if this is why they're trying to make Wonder Woman and the JSA a thing in the comics, although Stargirl is their JSA spearhead on TV with the show coming up.

    If we were going to really put a clone/variation in that role, Mon-El would seem like the more obvious choice then Ultra Boy. Unless Bendis still thinks people hate him because of the Supergirl show.

    I'd imagine the Legion will probably still be connected to the Super-franchise and family one way or another, so I don't think it will be much of a problem.

  3. #8373
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The problem with Kal-El is simply that WB/DC sucks with him by and large. Point blank period. I don't buy that they're simply noticing some really strong interest in diversification and that's their main goal here. Not saying that's a desire absent amongst consumers, of course its there to some degree and any company worth their salt would try and capitalize on it somehow. But once again they're missing the point badly. The reason its a thing WB is so gung-ho on is because they're so stupid when it comes to the actual Superman. They've screwed up so many times and they think the problem is with him. So, they move on to something else. Be it Supergirl, be it a black Superman, be it Superman's son. So to me its a flawed initiative from the word go. They're operating now on the idea that there's something wrong with the classic Superman. And that right there is the fatal flaw. They're the problem, not Kal-El/Clark Kent.

    Miles Morales wasn't created because Marvel thought there was something wrong with Peter Parker after repeated screw-ups that were there own fault. Peter was still incredibly popular and still embraced wtihin the company when Miles was created. It was an addition, not a replacement in totality (in the sense that he replaced one verse's Peter yes, but the main one was still swinging). That over time became embraced and was able to stand alone on his own merits. Sadly that's not the case with DC and Superman. They're looking to put Clark on the shelf (or at the very least (d)evolve him into some old ambassador or something equally stupid) because they've screwed him up so much and just don't get it. To me that does both the classic vision a disservice, not to mention cheapens any aim to diversify the mythos in any way. That's why unlike Marvel, this and any other dumb idea WB/DC has with replacing Superman be it with Jon or Calvin or Val-Zod or whatever, will be doomed to failure. Once again they're clueless. This push is already over before its even really truly began. It'd be funny if the Superman brand won't suffer yet again for it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 04-04-2020 at 12:52 PM.
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  4. #8374
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It just kind of sounds to me like jumping through hoops to make Ultra Boy fit into a niche that is, traditionally, meant to be Mon-El's if it's ever anyone's. So I'm just not convinced of the necessity.
    In terms of functionality, I'd say it's a necessity for it not to be someone indistinguishable from Clark and Jon in terms of power or power source, yeah. But I also think part of the point is playing on expectations. Going off my theory, I think Mon-El is a direct descendant of Jon's. He's already *seemingly* commented on his look by saying that Jon should obviously recognize who he looks like. I took that to mean that Mon was lucky enough to inherent Jon and Clark's looks in the 31st along with a similar power set. I think playing against the idea that this has to be a line of blood succession (especially since Jon perpetuates that) is the point of using Mon-El (a character usually regarded as family to Clark and the Superman family) like this. And I also think that's why Jo is possibly used the way he is, given the fact that historically he gets his start as a counterpart to Superboy back in the Superboy comic in 62, and he's often part of the Legion's powerhouse "big 3" alongside Mon and Superboy, but he usually falls short of both because of the limitations and differences with his powers.

    To me, in an "Ultimate" way, this isn't really much of a stretch or set of hoops to jump through. It's streamlined if you ask me.

    I wonder if this is why they're trying to make Wonder Woman and the JSA a thing in the comics
    I can pretty much assure you that's why Wonder Woman is now the inspiration for man of the heroes on the JSA, and will be part of their team (likely as leader). Like the Legion, the JSA has been out of comics for a while now, and --maybe even worse than the Legion-- they have basically no presence to the general public. Wonder Woman's profile has seen quite a bump recently, and she's already known for function in the past, so it lines up pretty well.

    If we were going to really put a clone/variation in that role, Mon-El would seem like the more obvious choice then Ultra Boy.
    Yes, and that's the point. We're already doing the almost kingly and mythic line of succession with Clark to Jon (down to the whole "lost prince finds his way home" idea), so something not as obvious as the guy with Superman's exact powers and "El" in his name becoming Superman in the 31st century seems like a nice complementary contrast.

    I'd imagine the Legion will probably still be connected to the Super-franchise and family one way or another, so I don't think it will be much of a problem.
    Agreed, but the tangibility of being able to point at a future forward POC Superman given the blessing of the son of Superman as a the team's resident Superman seems like a solid move. It's especially solid if say someone were to adapt this to film or cartoon movie and they needed focal point after the Superboy has gone home. That's especially needed for an relatively obscure and densely populated property like Legion. I just think it's good business.
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  5. #8375
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't buy that they're simply noticing some really strong interest in diversification and that's their main goal here.
    This (be it my theory or the meeting with MBJ) is most certainly not a pure of heart push for diversification (neither was Miles for the record. Just a different situation). It's something built on reaction to the handling of the IP in popular media up to this point, yes, but it's also in reaction to shifts in the collective culture.
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  6. #8376
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Oh hey Superman is trending on Twitter. Maybe something got announced movie wise or about the TV show?

    *Its Boon and Taylor advocating for an Injustice movie*

    Oh Christ. Every time I start to feel good about Supesí position in pop culture Iím reminded of this rampant cancer thatís just currently destroying him. Itís really going to happen at some point. Feels inevitable honestly. We got a temporary reprieve when Snyder got sacked but it was only ever temporary. **** me for hoping that was the end of it. Of course one day weíll get the biggest Batwank story that destroys Superman in ways that will make people who thought DKR was his lowest point look downright naive. Superman completely raped as a character and utterly destroyed by those who hate him and canít wait to turn him into a stooge for Batgod to beat up. Iím so tired. I wish I liked Batman more like the rest of the plebs. Or Spidey. Thatís probably unkind to say but itís late and Iím stuck inside under quarantine with nothing to do but think about how bad things look. In the morning Iíll hopefully have chilled out and stopped feeling so depressed but man itís so hard. When the rest of the world hates your favorite character so much and talk about how he works better as a villain for Batgod it just destroys you man. Canít wait for Injustice 3 where Supes will fry a baby with his heat vision and eat it, and Tom Taylor will write another 50 issues shilling Harley Quinn as an innocent angel whom everyone loves. **** it all.

  7. #8377
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Oh hey Superman is trending on Twitter. Maybe something got announced movie wise or about the TV show?

    *Its Boon and Taylor advocating for an Injustice movie*

    Oh Christ. Every time I start to feel good about Supes’ position in pop culture I’m reminded of this rampant cancer that’s just currently destroying him. It’s really going to happen at some point. Feels inevitable honestly. We got a temporary reprieve when Snyder got sacked but it was only ever temporary. **** me for hoping that was the end of it. Of course one day we’ll get the biggest Batwank story that destroys Superman in ways that will make people who thought DKR was his lowest point look downright naive. Superman completely raped as a character and utterly destroyed by those who hate him and can’t wait to turn him into a stooge for Batgod to beat up. I’m so tired. I wish I liked Batman more like the rest of the plebs. Or Spidey. That’s probably unkind to say but it’s late and I’m stuck inside under quarantine with nothing to do but think about how bad things look. In the morning I’ll hopefully have chilled out and stopped feeling so depressed but man it’s so hard. When the rest of the world hates your favorite character so much and talk about how he works better as a villain for Batgod it just destroys you man. Can’t wait for Injustice 3 where Supes will fry a baby with his heat vision and eat it, and Tom Taylor will write another 50 issues shilling Harley Quinn as an innocent angel whom everyone loves. **** it all.
    As if snyder was doing injustice. Please, superman had problems before snyder took on the character.As long as superman is written to be this unachievable goal, some kind of false example that strives to teach people to ignore or suppress their desires. He would come of as a saint giving sermons.The character would never prosper.i wouldn't blame miller or snyder for that. The character has been twisted into that. Furthermore, the insufferable drama.

    Fans want a hollow saint, in batman's world. (yes, dc is batman's world).They might or might not get that. But, others don't want it.They would rather see the ubermensch beat up the dead god.And they will sure as hell get it.

    Edit- tom taylor wasn't advocating for injustice movie. He seemed to be mocking zack snyder's vision and release the Snyder cut movement . For the record, he likes donner superman. He wants that kinda superman.He does not like zack Snyder's superman. But, contrary to that people took it seriously and started championing it. People actually want to see injustice. This is a sad day.
    https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...191934465?s=19
    People seem to think zack snyder was going to do injustice movie. At best he was retelling the arc in dcau.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-05-2020 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #8378
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'd be interested to see if the next Legion adaption doesn't use a premise of a Superfamily member or a young Superman going back to the future with them. Do they need a Superman that's not from the past and isn't basically Mon-El? How it compares/contrasts with the last Legion cartoon. I guess I'm curious how Young Justice will handle the team if they can fit them in with their 65+ characters and plotlines.
    We already know there'll be LOSH in YJ season 4, Saturn Girl and her flight ring were shown in the finale of Outsiders.
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  9. #8379
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    When the rest of the world hates your favorite character so much and talk about how he works better as a villain for Batgod it just destroys you man.
    It's not the rest of the world. The world loves Superman. Didn't he just win a popularity contest at Disney World, in the very depths of Avengers territory? People love Superman.

    It's not the world my friend, it's just DC.

    And the fact that, despite DC's best efforts, Superman is still this popular says sooo much about his staying power and importance to our culture. Decades of crap in the comics, decades of crap appearances in larger media, but he's still king. Sit back and think about that. If DC screwed up Batman for thirty years, and made Batman movies that people hated, and didn't give him cartoons.....would he still be such a big deal? I doubt it. He'd still probably be popular, but I don't think he'd take it as well as Clark has. Yet Superman endures, and it seems that no matter how hard DC tries, they can't shake him.

    The people at DC who keep screwing up, whether intentionally or not, will leave. Some, like Berganza and Didio, already have (not to mention the people who began this downward spiral in the 80's). Superman outlived those guys, he'll outlive the ones who're still around. And at some point, by accident or design, a product will be put out there that reminds everyone why Superman is still king, despite DC's best efforts.

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  10. #8380
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    While I wouldn't deny that superman is more fundamental in nature than batman. I wouldn't say that character isn't struggling. This is not a good situation for the character to be in. He hasn't had something that isn't divisive in other media of quality . On top of that, people have prejudices both for and against the character. Overcoming that would be a herculean task. People rarely change their minds in a mob or bandwagon so to speak.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-05-2020 at 10:12 AM.

  11. #8381
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    In terms of functionality, I'd say it's a necessity for it not to be someone indistinguishable from Clark and Jon in terms of power or power source, yeah. But I also think part of the point is playing on expectations. Going off my theory, I think Mon-El is a direct descendant of Jon's. He's already *seemingly* commented on his look by saying that Jon should obviously recognize who he looks like. I took that to mean that Mon was lucky enough to inherent Jon and Clark's looks in the 31st along with a similar power set. I think playing against the idea that this has to be a line of blood succession (especially since Jon perpetuates that) is the point of using Mon-El (a character usually regarded as family to Clark and the Superman family) like this. And I also think that's why Jo is possibly used the way he is, given the fact that historically he gets his start as a counterpart to Superboy back in the Superboy comic in 62, and he's often part of the Legion's powerhouse "big 3" alongside Mon and Superboy, but he usually falls short of both because of the limitations and differences with his powers.

    To me, in an "Ultimate" way, this isn't really much of a stretch or set of hoops to jump through. It's streamlined if you ask me.
    I think if we were going for streamlining, Mon-El would be the more sensible choice. Nothing against Jo Nah, but just on paper it just seems to make more sense. He even has a costume, was Superman for hot minute, and everything.
    I can pretty much assure you that's why Wonder Woman is now the inspiration for man of the heroes on the JSA, and will be part of their team (likely as leader). Like the Legion, the JSA has been out of comics for a while now, and --maybe even worse than the Legion-- they have basically no presence to the general public. Wonder Woman's profile has seen quite a bump recently, and she's already known for function in the past, so it lines up pretty well.
    Yeah, I can see what they're going for. I really don't agree with it for both properties, but I guess from a marketing perspective it makes sense although media wise it doesn't seem like they'll be following it with any of their other interpretations of the JSA.
    Yes, and that's the point. We're already doing the almost kingly and mythic line of succession with Clark to Jon (down to the whole "lost prince finds his way home" idea), so something not as obvious as the guy with Superman's exact powers and "El" in his name becoming Superman in the 31st century seems like a nice complementary contrast.
    I don't think that's what Bendis was going for at the time. Although thematically I'd think you'd go for the more obvious choice.
    Agreed, but the tangibility of being able to point at a future forward POC Superman given the blessing of the son of Superman as a the team's resident Superman seems like a solid move. It's especially solid if say someone were to adapt this to film or cartoon movie and they needed focal point after the Superboy has gone home. That's especially needed for an relatively obscure and densely populated property like Legion. I just think it's good business.
    I think Kenan would probably stand out more in that vein then trying to implement something like this with the Legion, especially if a media adaption is more likely to emphasize a Superfamily member from the past joining the team...otherwise they won't need to have to have a Superman on there to begin with in my opinion. That seems more likely to me then trying to make someone on the Legion the team's new Superman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Oh hey Superman is trending on Twitter. Maybe something got announced movie wise or about the TV show?

    *Its Boon and Taylor advocating for an Injustice movie*

    Oh Christ. Every time I start to feel good about Supes’ position in pop culture I’m reminded of this rampant cancer that’s just currently destroying him. It’s really going to happen at some point. Feels inevitable honestly. We got a temporary reprieve when Snyder got sacked but it was only ever temporary. **** me for hoping that was the end of it. Of course one day we’ll get the biggest Batwank story that destroys Superman in ways that will make people who thought DKR was his lowest point look downright naive. Superman completely raped as a character and utterly destroyed by those who hate him and can’t wait to turn him into a stooge for Batgod to beat up. I’m so tired. I wish I liked Batman more like the rest of the plebs. Or Spidey. That’s probably unkind to say but it’s late and I’m stuck inside under quarantine with nothing to do but think about how bad things look. In the morning I’ll hopefully have chilled out and stopped feeling so depressed but man it’s so hard. When the rest of the world hates your favorite character so much and talk about how he works better as a villain for Batgod it just destroys you man. Can’t wait for Injustice 3 where Supes will fry a baby with his heat vision and eat it, and Tom Taylor will write another 50 issues shilling Harley Quinn as an innocent angel whom everyone loves. **** it all.
    To play devil's advocate...I really doubt WB is going put the resources down for a live action Injustice movie. They're still trying to make Mortal Kombat work on film again.

    Plus, I dunno, I'm not sure Injustice would work in live action as well as it did in the game. At least with the game you had recognizable VA's playing the characters, distorted as they could be, so there was that factor that helped sell the AU's, but they would probably have to get an all new cast, make them believable as the characters to the audience, and then pull the rug out from under them.

    And then there's the question of how to adapt the story. The obvious way would, honestly, be the first game which actually features a heroic version of Superman to contrast with the evil one.

    Frankly I think the next likely iteration of Injustice is Injustice 3, and I'm expecting if the game follows my expectations of emphasizing the multiverse more, we'll end up with a heroic Superman again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    We already know there'll be LOSH in YJ season 4, Saturn Girl and her flight ring were shown in the finale of Outsiders.
    I know, I'm just curious how much they'll get into the group and their time period when the show already has so much going on.

  12. #8382
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    And this is why you should never check Twitter at 1am in the morning thanks to insomnia. Thanks for the replies guys I feel less depressed now. Had a good convo with some people on Twitter and it’s made me want to go read back through Busiek Superman and Morrison Superman. Need some uplifting Superman stuff right now.

  13. #8383
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's not the rest of the world. The world loves Superman. Didn't he just win a popularity contest at Disney World, in the very depths of Avengers territory? People love Superman.

    It's not the world my friend, it's just DC.

    And the fact that, despite DC's best efforts, Superman is still this popular says sooo much about his staying power and importance to our culture. Decades of crap in the comics, decades of crap appearances in larger media, but he's still king. Sit back and think about that. If DC screwed up Batman for thirty years, and made Batman movies that people hated, and didn't give him cartoons.....would he still be such a big deal? I doubt it. He'd still probably be popular, but I don't think he'd take it as well as Clark has. Yet Superman endures, and it seems that no matter how hard DC tries, they can't shake him.

    The people at DC who keep screwing up, whether intentionally or not, will leave. Some, like Berganza and Didio, already have (not to mention the people who began this downward spiral in the 80's). Superman outlived those guys, he'll outlive the ones who're still around. And at some point, by accident or design, a product will be put out there that reminds everyone why Superman is still king, despite DC's best efforts.

    Thanos might be inevitable, but Superman is eternal.
    And while I don't think DC Universe is a good sampling size of the general public, Reign of the Supermen is apparently the most watched animated film on the service.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    And this is why you should never check Twitter at 1am in the morning thanks to insomnia. Thanks for the replies guys I feel less depressed now. Had a good convo with some people on Twitter and it’s made me want to go read back through Busiek Superman and Morrison Superman. Need some uplifting Superman stuff right now.
    I know it's not popular on the forum, but I re-read Secret Origins by Johns and found it pretty darn uplifting .

  14. #8384
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Secret origins is very much beloved outside the forum by Superman fans from what i have seen.Speaking of superman and uplifting. Supes has been on a mission to stop suicides everywhere from day one. It's a neverending battle and you are stronger than you think.

    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-05-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  15. #8385
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And while I don't think DC Universe is a good sampling size of the general public, Reign of the Supermen is apparently the most watched animated film on the service.

    I know it's not popular on the forum, but I re-read Secret Origins by Johns and found it pretty darn uplifting .
    For me Supes & the LoSH is my favorite Johns Superman story, going to add that to the pile. Also Wonder Twins and Dial H for Heroes, need to reread those since I loved reading them issue to issue and now wanna read them all together since quarantine brought me so much free time. Whatever you think of Bendis on the main books, his Wonder Comics stuff has been aces. Tons of all time great Superman appearances in those books. Especially amazed at how Humphries did such a great job with Dial H.

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