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  1. #7621
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, there was a build up to it in lois and clark and convergence.
    Not really. In Convergence we get to see Clark about to have a kid. L&C jumps forward ten years, and all the changes and adjustments Clark would have gone through as a father have already happened. And that continued with Rebirth. There was no build-up or development, there was a decade of changing diapers and wiping tears and figuring out parenthood that happened off camera. Even Lois' pregnancy happened off camera in Convergence.

    Clark *could* grow to be a good parent. He's got the heart for it. But not getting to see any of that transition (even in L&C) just makes the whole thing so jarring it makes the Byrne era changes look quaint.

    But, not in postcrisis characterisation.
    You mean the era when he immediately dropped Kara off with people he didn't know on Themyscria? And left Conner, who was all of a few months old at the time (and mentally a immature teen) to the devices of a super shady Hollywood talent agent? And failed to protect Chris? And....did he put Mon-El/Valor/Lar in the Zone during post-Crisis too? I forget. Oh, and there's Power Girl too, his cousin from another reality he almost never, ever interacted with outside of team ups with the JSA. Clark had more interaction and a better relationship with John Henry than he did anyone who he was actually related to, even tangentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Hey! I am not the one who say clark is that bad of a dad. @ascended is.
    Damn straight. And anyone who looks at the actual publishing history without bias will see the same thing (perhaps "bad" is a tad too strong a word but I don't think we can call him "good" either...at best, he's maybe "barely capable"). When the best you can say about the guy is that "he dropped Kara off with good people" that's not saying much.
    Last edited by Ascended; 11-15-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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  2. #7622
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    To be fair PostCrisis Superman didn’t want Kara to go with Diana and was very protective of her. Pre Crisis Superman is the dick who made Kara go live in an orphanage because she could expose him otherwise lmao. But Post Crisis Superman was a dick to Kon and basically gave him the cold shoulder for a while until he finally decided to treat Kon like family. So Kal being a standoffish guy who isn’t very good at raising kids has ground in both Pre and Post Crisises.

  3. #7623
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not really. In Convergence we get to see Clark about to have a kid. L&C jumps forward ten years, and all the changes and adjustments Clark would have gone through as a father have already happened. And that continued with Rebirth. There was no build-up or development, there was a decade of changing diapers and wiping tears and figuring out parenthood that happened off camera. Even Lois' pregnancy happened off camera in Convergence.

    Clark *could* grow to be a good parent. He's got the heart for it. But not getting to see any of that transition (even in L&C) just makes the whole thing so jarring it makes the Byrne era changes look quaint.



    You mean the era when he immediately dropped Kara off with people he didn't know on Themyscria? And left Conner, who was all of a few months old at the time (and mentally a immature teen) to the devices of a super shady Hollywood talent agent? And failed to protect Chris? And....did he put Mon-El/Valor/Lar in the Zone during post-Crisis too? I forget. Oh, and there's Power Girl too, his cousin from another reality he almost never, ever interacted with outside of team ups with the JSA. Clark had more interaction and a better relationship with John Henry than he did anyone who he was actually related to, even tangentially.


    Themyscira, when diana 'insisted' is not exactly bad place. Clark trusts diana. Kara's life similar to jon's was in constant danger. Clark did what any parent would. Clark didn't exactly leave her on her own device nor did he with jon until bendis . He was very much part of the whole ordeal. He was overbearing, actually. As he should be depicted. As for conner, the guy came back from dead to see a teen hybrid clone. He wasn't even married. He was in the middle of his relationship about to get married . He was,Relatively young lad. Not the old gezzer we have right now(i am joking) . What do you expect? It's not like he said "buzz of kid", like in young justice. It didn't go that far. Not to mention conner found a home with Clark's parents, later on. Failing to protect your kid(chris) is not the same as being a shitty father. Many fathers unfortunately go through that. His cousin from another reality doesn't make them family. If that's the case clark and superboy Prime are family. They aren't. As for mon el, being back. That was paralleling precrisis guy and taking his lead.it had zilch to do with postcrisis guy own characterisation. Exactly the reason i hate amalgamation. Postcrisis guy should be overbearing .not, oh shucks! I poisoned my big brother accidentally.

    The jump was cause ten years had passed in the new52. There was a fair amount of clark adjusting to parent life in lois and clark for me. You want more. That's fine. Similarly, i want jon to grow at natural pacing. But, they are going the origin story route in both regards . I mean, jon and clark got to have this long drawn origin and they are still going through it.

    Can i ask you something? Would you feel the same way if postcrisis guy didn't take over? Did you feel the same way during lois and clark when Clark's life for last 10 years was being told in 12 issues?
    Besides the point, the shitty dad nonsense is overplayed. Every major protagonist is a shitty dad, except for maybe naruto and allmight who just juggle responsibilities . Clark being good dad was great for a change, untill it lasted. The guys(all might and naruto) fullfill all the same responsibilities with less power and abilities than clark does . I ask again, What is Clark's excuse for it? He got none. You say clark should be shitty dad. You don't say why he should be. Especially, at this juncture of his life. He isn't 25. Goku atleast has an excuse. He didn't have a normal upbringing. The guy was sheltered as f@*k. He doesn't exactly have the same world view. He sees his son more as a friend and competition. He is driven by ambition. Clark has none of the problems goku has. Except for the secret. even, that thing had been entirely put to rest in regards to most of his loved ones.
    My argument is perfectly sound, A 40 year old clark kent should never be written as goku level shitty father. Regardless of anything precrisis or postcrisis .
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-15-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #7624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not really. In Convergence we get to see Clark about to have a kid. L&C jumps forward ten years, and all the changes and adjustments Clark would have gone through as a father have already happened. And that continued with Rebirth. There was no build-up or development, there was a decade of changing diapers and wiping tears and figuring out parenthood that happened off camera. Even Lois' pregnancy happened off camera in Convergence.

    Clark *could* grow to be a good parent. He's got the heart for it. But not getting to see any of that transition (even in L&C) just makes the whole thing so jarring it makes the Byrne era changes look quaint.



    You mean the era when he immediately dropped Kara off with people he didn't know on Themyscria? And left Conner, who was all of a few months old at the time (and mentally a immature teen) to the devices of a super shady Hollywood talent agent? And failed to protect Chris? And....did he put Mon-El/Valor/Lar in the Zone during post-Crisis too? I forget. Oh, and there's Power Girl too, his cousin from another reality he almost never, ever interacted with outside of team ups with the JSA. Clark had more interaction and a better relationship with John Henry than he did anyone who he was actually related to, even tangentially.



    Damn straight. And anyone who looks at the actual publishing history without bias will see the same thing (perhaps "bad" is a tad too strong a word but I don't think we can call him "good" either...at best, he's maybe "barely capable"). When the best you can say about the guy is that "he dropped Kara off with good people" that's not saying much.

    In fact, it always seemed very odd to me that Clark simply leaves people related to him to the care of others and hardly try to create a real relationship with them.

    The issue is that story does not even recognize this as a Clark's flaw. They just write it that way, because they need the story of these characters to move in a certain direction, while Superman is a hindrance to this.

    Superdad (or at least something similar) is probably how Clark would act if the writers wanted him to really take care of Kara or Conner too (and form a real relationship).
    Last edited by Konja7; 11-15-2019 at 10:37 AM.

  5. #7625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not really. In Convergence we get to see Clark about to have a kid. L&C jumps forward ten years, and all the changes and adjustments Clark would have gone through as a father have already happened. And that continued with Rebirth. There was no build-up or development, there was a decade of changing diapers and wiping tears and figuring out parenthood that happened off camera. Even Lois' pregnancy happened off camera in Convergence.

    Clark *could* grow to be a good parent. He's got the heart for it. But not getting to see any of that transition (even in L&C) just makes the whole thing so jarring it makes the Byrne era changes look quaint.
    More importantly, until Superman Reborn SuperDad wasn't even really "THE Superman". The official Superman, that is the main character of Action Comics and Superman, was New52 Superman. The fact that according to Didio and Jurgens the main character of Lois and Clark was post-Crisis Superman is completely irrelevant; I would even argue that it isn't even a really honest statement, because post-Crisis Superman was married, but didn't have a kid. This huge, HUGE change happened entirely off camera.There was no build-up at all and personally speaking I never felt that Post-Crisis Superman ever came back after New52. As far as I am concerned, SuperDad is a different character.
    Pulling the rug under New52 Superman's feet and replacing him with SuperDad is probably one of the unfairest moves ever attempted by DC.

    EDITED - a couple of mistakes here and there.
    Last edited by Myskin; 11-15-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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  6. #7626
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    More importantly, until Superman Reborn SuperDad wasn't even really "THE Superman". The official Superman, that is the main character of Action Comics and Superman, was New52 Superman. The fact that according to Didio and Jurgens the main character of Lois and Clark was pre-Crisis Superman is completely irrelevant; I would even argue that it isn't even a really honest statement, because pre-Crisis Superman was married, but didn't have a kid. This huge, HUGE change happened entirely off camera.There was no build-up at all and personally speaking I never felt that Pre-Crisis Superman ever came back after New52. As far as I am concerned, SuperDad is a different character.
    Pulling the rug under New52 Superman's feet and replacing him with SuperDad is probably one of the unfairest moves ever attempted by DC.
    Didio and Jurgen's said this was precrisis superman? when? At best it was implied that this was a composite superman. This was very much continuation of post crisis guy, until reborn. As for the unfairness, i can get behind it. They should have planned and marketed it better.
    Also, dc did the same to wally for barry.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-15-2019 at 10:47 AM.

  7. #7627
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Didio and Jurgen's said this was precrisis superman? when? At best it was implied that this was a composite superman. This was very much continuation of post crisis guy, until reborn. As for the unfairness, i can get behind it. They should have planned and marketed it better.
    Also, dc did the same to wally for barry.
    Postcrisis. My mistake.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

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  8. #7628
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    Anyway, just for once I'll play the speculation game instead of my old colleague Superlad.
    This is a list of the solicitations for some of the future issues of Action Comics, including the ones for February 2020, which have just been released.

    One of the biggest Superman stories of all time continues in “Metropolis Doom” part two! War and chaos strikes the heart of Metropolis. The Invisible Mafia, Lex Luthor, and the Legion of Doom all stand their ground to take over Metropolis.
    One of the biggest battles in Superman history tears through Metropolis as the super-villain team-up of Lex Luthor, the Legion of Doom, and Leviathan come to change Superman’s city forever!
    The alliance between Leviathan and the Legion of Doom has fractured—and all hell breaks loose! The Justice League and Young Justice guest star as the Year of the Villain hits a powerful note. Metropolis won’t be the same after this massive battle for the future of the world.
    I may be the only one who has noticed it, but maybe - just maybe - another radical redesign of Metropolis is about to happen; the third one as far as I remember, after Y2K Metropolis (my favorite one) and Johns/Busiek's Up, up and away.
    Metropolis' impersonal architecture has always been a major gripe of mine, so maybe - MAYBE - this time the new design will finally stick.
    I still hope for a cyberpunk Metropolis, but I don't hold my breath.
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  9. #7629
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Postcrisis. My mistake.
    Ok, then. But, birth of jon was shown, twice actually . And mundanity of everyday parenting is never going to be shown in comics. We are not going to see clark change diapers or something. Otherwise, keypoints similar to an origin story was shown. As bendis, said didio had planned for the 5G for quite a while. Jon had a dream of himself as superman. It was also foreshadowed in Manchester black arc. They are going for the origin story route with jon and clark as president. We didn't get to see bruce getting old in batman beyond. We skipped it. Only showed how bruce quit. Its the same deal here. We jumped to where jon begins to show his abilities.

  10. #7630
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    To be fair PostCrisis Superman didn’t want Kara to go with Diana and was very protective of her. Pre Crisis Superman is the dick who made Kara go live in an orphanage because she could expose him otherwise lmao. But Post Crisis Superman was a dick to Kon and basically gave him the cold shoulder for a while until he finally decided to treat Kon like family. So Kal being a standoffish guy who isn’t very good at raising kids has ground in both Pre and Post Crisises.
    In fairness Kon was a clone created without his knowledge or consent, in the middle of being dead just before his marriage and transformation, and Superman had to take time out to become family in the middle of becoming king of the world.

    With Jon out there and now that he's only gonna be president maybe he'll have some more space to convince people haha. But really, I don't get how he's not supposed to be good with family at this point of maintaining his family for this long just because it was off panel.
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  11. #7631
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I may be the only one who has noticed it, but maybe - just maybe - another radical redesign of Metropolis is about to happen; the third one as far as I remember, after Y2K Metropolis (my favorite one) and Johns/Busiek's Up, up and away.
    Metropolis' impersonal architecture has always been a major gripe of mine, so maybe - MAYBE - this time the new design will finally stick.
    I still hope for a cyberpunk Metropolis, but I don't hold my breath.
    Good chance. I might even say very good chance of this going down.

    Bendis, Rucka, and Fraction meet regularly to plan out how they want to breath in more to the city, and how they want it to have just as much personality as the relatively more distinctive Gotham City.

    And over in Fraction Jimmy Olsen he's now made it so the Olsens and the Luthors basically built the city. In Bendis' Legion the whole city becomes Legion HQ. So there's something distinctive in mind for the city's past and future, so why not its present?

    Adding to your theory, Bendis said he wanted to make Metropolis a city of immigrants because it's home to the most famous one of all. And now we're establishing the UP, Earth taking part in the galactic conversation, and present day President of Earth, I'm fairly convinced that we'll see the establishment of the UP embassy at the heart of Metropolis like it usually is in the 30th and 31st centuries. I'm thinking this may lead to actual alien immigration to Earth in present day DC, and Metropolis is on its way to becoming a galactic melting pot. And if we do get that 3 to 4 year timeskip for 5G I'm expecting, then we'll get to see it up and running, and we'll likely get a whiff of the social and political.

    Whatever they decide to do, I'm really glad Action Comics is essentially a Metropolis book complete with a focus on the News and underbelly. Makes the idea of changes like these all the more relevant and beyond cosmetic.
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  12. #7632
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok, then. But, birth of jon was shown, twice actually . And mundanity of everyday parenting is never going to be shown in comics. We are not going to see clark change diapers or something.
    Nobody would like to see that (or maybe someone would, just for fun). But you can create a build-up in a lot of different ways. This character was just there, all of a sudden, impossible to ignore. One of the reasons I don't care much about some people complaining about Jon's age-up is that just a couple of years before the exact same thing, possibly even more traumatic, happened with Jon's introduction and SuperDad replacing New52 Superman. It's the same trick. Once you accept such an unforeseen change as a narrative possibility, complaining about DC playing the same card twice is pretty useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As bendis, said didio had planned for the 5G for quite a while. Jon had a dream of himself as superman. It was also foreshadowed in Manchester black arc. They are going for the origin story route with jon and clark as president.
    I have way fewer problems with Jon as a legacy character and Superman's identity being public. It's a wholly different scenario, with its own distinct feel, very recognizable, and its own rules. And they are reaching that point with a reasonably slow build-up.
    Last edited by Myskin; 11-15-2019 at 11:36 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  13. #7633
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Adding to your theory, Bendis said he wanted to make Metropolis a city of immigrants because it's home to the most famous one of all. And now we're establishing the UP, Earth taking part in the galactic conversation, and present day President of Earth, I'm fairly convinced that we'll see the establishment of the UP embassy at the heart of Metropolis like it usually is in the 30th and 31st centuries. I'm thinking this may lead to actual alien immigration to Earth in present day DC, and Metropolis is on its way to becoming a galactic melting pot. And if we do get that 3 to 4 year timeskip for 5G I'm expecting, then we'll get to see it up and running, and we'll likely get a whiff of the social and political.
    So turn it into a comic version of Supergirl's National City?

  14. #7634
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So turn it into a comic version of Supergirl's National City?
    I dunno. I don't watch that show, but if you say so
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    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


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  15. #7635
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I still want to see Bendis work on that “City of Immigrants” idea because it’s a good one, but so far I haven’t seen him do much with it specifically.

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