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  1. #8746
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I thought 5g is dead.
    No official word and most rumor mills are saying "it's dead but some things may be retooled" and Jon is usually at the top of the list. We don't really know. It's possible he gets his own line of books, an "Ultimate Superman" of sorts. We'll see.

  2. #8747
    Fantastic Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Honestly, I'm at the point where I've got no interest in a return to normal. I've read stories with the classic status quo for over twenty years. I'm okay with exploring the next phase of Clark Kent's life.

    The execution has been shaky at times, but I'd rather read about Superman building the United Planets than read about Superman fighting Metallo again.

    I'd rather read about Clark finding his way in the new normal of an open identity than see DC stumble through what they think is a nuanced examination of the Clark-Superman duality, which they've f**ked up or ignored for so many years I can't remember the last time in modern comics it was handled correctly. Clark learning to live without secrets is in and of itself an interesting twist on his character that could fuel stories and character development for decades...and we've only gotten a couple issues into it.

    I'd rather read about Superman; President of Earth, than read about him trying to get enough evidence collected to put Lex behind bars. Again.

    Everything Bendis has done has been a natural extension of Clark as a character. Hell, nothing Bendis has done has even been original; Clark going public with his identity has been a factor in dozens upon dozens of "near future" stories and Elseworlds. Krypton being destroyed by external forces has been done a dozen times. Superman having a kid who grows up to fast has been a story in dozens upon dozens of comics (especially in the Silver Age, but also in stuff like Byrne's Generations).
    This.

    Plus, the secret identity is a very small price to pay because its heavily diminshed already by the previous status quo, the romance triangle was gone, Superman doesn't need it to live a normal life since he is happily married with a kid and has loving parents and friends, the investigative journalist angle was barely used and it certainly isn't why most people read Superman.

    So lets enjoy it as long as it last. After all the next reboot is on the way already :P

  3. #8748
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    No official word and most rumor mills are saying "it's dead but some things may be retooled" and Jon is usually at the top of the list. We don't really know. It's possible he gets his own line of books, an "Ultimate Superman" of sorts. We'll see.
    Bleeding Cool has said 5G is totally dead, but DC may do new versions of Superman and Batman in a Digital Original Comic overseen by creators like Ellis, Zdarsky, and Fraction. They can’t confirm that yet though.

  4. #8749
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man_of_Tomorrow View Post
    This.

    Plus, the secret identity is a very small price to pay because its heavily diminshed already by the previous status quo, the romance triangle was gone, Superman doesn't need it to live a normal life since he is happily married with a kid and has loving parents and friends, the investigative journalist angle was barely used and it certainly isn't why most people read Superman.
    While I would disagree that it diminishes the point of his ID to the point of needing to get rid of it, if we assume that these things are hurting its integrity to a high level, if anything that should be condemnation of the marriage and the kid then. If those two things are hurting the secret ID, I don't see how the answer is to get rid of the secret ID. Of all three of those things in Superman's mythos, the the secret ID is the most important. By country miles.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-09-2020 at 06:32 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  5. #8750
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    While I would disagree that it diminishes the point of his ID to the point of needing to get rid of it, if we assume that these things are hurting its integrity to a high level, if anything that should be condemnation of the marriage and the kid then. If those two things are hurting the secret ID, I don't see how the answer is to get rid of the secret ID. Of all three of those things in Superman's mythos, the the secret ID is the most important. By country miles.
    What diminishes the secret ID is DC itself.

    How often has Clark Kent actually mattered in recent years? How many stories have really played off that intrinsic duality and actually done it justice? Damn few. Seriously, other than Morrison has anyone in the main books actually used this to good effect in the last decade?

    Yang, back in the Truth days, talked about how the character of Kal-El could be found in the tension between "Clark" and "Superman." And he's right; to understand Superman you have to understand that he's in large part two separate people, and how those two people view the world and each other is where we discover the real "true" character of Superman.

    But DC barely uses Clark at all. We never get to see or explore this fundamental aspect of the character. So what's the damn point in keeping it? Just so we can see it used poorly on the rare occasion it gets used at all? I'll pass, thanks.

    When the New52 put Clark and Diana together, so many people hated the idea but I thought "this has decades and decades of precedence in Silver Age imaginary tales and stories set in the future. It can't be the endgame, because that's always Lois, but what's the harm in bringing this long-standing idea into main continuity for a while and really seeing what kind of mileage we can get out of it? As long as it doesn't end in marriage it'll be fine, and give us something new to read about." I feel the same way about the open identity; this has been seen in tons and tons of Elseworlds and "near future" stories, dating back to before I was born....so why not see what can be done with it in main canon? This is an established and viable next phase for Clark, used in several of the most popular out-of-continuity tales. So let's see what it can really do. I mean, what do we got to lose? We get a few bad stories? We get those anyway. A writer writes Clark out of character and makes him less nuanced than he should be? How is that different from 99% of comics now? We'll have other stories with the classic duality, like Smashes the Klan and (I assume) the upcoming CW show, and whatever else DC has planned. So we're not actually missing the classic set-up, it's still gonna be out there. And DC will reboot eventually anyway. So f*ck it, let's see where it goes. We've only had a couple issues with this new normal, we don't even know what it'll look like yet. I'd rather explore some relatively fresh territory than go back to the same-old-same-old before we've even had a chance to see what this is like.
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-09-2020 at 07:12 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #8751
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    What diminishes the secret ID is DC itself.

    How often has Clark Kent actually mattered in recent years? How many stories have really played off that intrinsic duality and actually done it justice? Damn few. Seriously, other than Morrison has anyone in the main books actually used this to good effect in the last decade?

    Yang, back in the Truth days, talked about how the character of Kal-El could be found in the tension between "Clark" and "Superman." And he's right; to understand Superman you have to understand that he's in large part two separate people, and how those two people view the world and each other is where we discover the real "true" character of Superman.

    But DC barely uses Clark at all. We never get to see or explore this fundamental aspect of the character. So what's the damn point in keeping it? Just so we can see it used poorly on the rare occasion it gets used at all? I'll pass, thanks.

    When the New52 put Clark and Diana together, so many people hated the idea but I thought "this has decades and decades of precedence in Silver Age imaginary tales and stories set in the future. It can't be the endgame, because that's always Lois, but what's the harm in bringing this long-standing idea into main continuity for a while and really seeing what kind of mileage we can get out of it? As long as it doesn't end in marriage it'll be fine, and give us something new to read about." I feel the same way about the open identity; this has been seen in tons and tons of Elseworlds and "near future" stories, dating back to before I was born....so why not see what can be done with it in main canon? This is an established and viable next phase for Clark, used in several of the most popular out-of-continuity tales. So let's see what it can really do. I mean, what do we got to lose? We get a few bad stories? We get those anyway. A writer writes Clark out of character and makes him less nuanced than he should be? How is that different from 99% of comics now? We'll have other stories with the classic duality, like Smashes the Klan and (I assume) the upcoming CW show, and whatever else DC has planned. So we're not actually missing the classic set-up, it's still gonna be out there. And DC will reboot eventually anyway. So f*ck it, let's see where it goes. We've only had a couple issues with this new normal, we don't even know what it'll look like yet. I'd rather explore some relatively fresh territory than go back to the same-old-same-old before we've even had a chance to see what this is like.
    I think there's something to be said for DC underutilizing and squandering the Clark Kent side of things as of late (ironically Bendis seemed to have a good grasp of it in his first Action arc) but at the same time...I dunno, the whole idea of Superman outing himself just feels kind of boring to me. Like it takes away some of the mystique and nuance in favor of yet another 24/7 Superhero and Bendis feels like he's repeating himself to some extent. I'd rather see a writer come in and re-emphasize the secret identity dynamic then just wholesale do away with it. But that's just my take on it.

    That being said, I think Bendis has put more thought into it then DC did when they paired Clark and Diana together, because that felt, at the time, more like it was set up for shock value and they went from there.

  7. #8752
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Bendis has executed the identity reveal better than virtually all the other ideas he's laid out in this run. Ironically, it's the one that he actually seemed to just kind of do off the cuff where the rest were part of his initial plans. The execution of it was excellent and the reveal issues are probably the best of the run.

  8. #8753
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    What diminishes the secret ID is DC itself.

    How often has Clark Kent actually mattered in recent years? How many stories have really played off that intrinsic duality and actually done it justice? Damn few. Seriously, other than Morrison has anyone in the main books actually used this to good effect in the last decade?

    Yang, back in the Truth days, talked about how the character of Kal-El could be found in the tension between "Clark" and "Superman." And he's right; to understand Superman you have to understand that he's in large part two separate people, and how those two people view the world and each other is where we discover the real "true" character of Superman.

    But DC barely uses Clark at all. We never get to see or explore this fundamental aspect of the character. So what's the damn point in keeping it? Just so we can see it used poorly on the rare occasion it gets used at all? I'll pass, thanks.

    When the New52 put Clark and Diana together, so many people hated the idea but I thought "this has decades and decades of precedence in Silver Age imaginary tales and stories set in the future. It can't be the endgame, because that's always Lois, but what's the harm in bringing this long-standing idea into main continuity for a while and really seeing what kind of mileage we can get out of it? As long as it doesn't end in marriage it'll be fine, and give us something new to read about." I feel the same way about the open identity; this has been seen in tons and tons of Elseworlds and "near future" stories, dating back to before I was born....so why not see what can be done with it in main canon? This is an established and viable next phase for Clark, used in several of the most popular out-of-continuity tales. So let's see what it can really do. I mean, what do we got to lose? We get a few bad stories? We get those anyway. A writer writes Clark out of character and makes him less nuanced than he should be? How is that different from 99% of comics now? We'll have other stories with the classic duality, like Smashes the Klan and (I assume) the upcoming CW show, and whatever else DC has planned. So we're not actually missing the classic set-up, it's still gonna be out there. And DC will reboot eventually anyway. So f*ck it, let's see where it goes. We've only had a couple issues with this new normal, we don't even know what it'll look like yet. I'd rather explore some relatively fresh territory than go back to the same-old-same-old before we've even had a chance to see what this is like.
    While I can appreciate the truth of pointing out DC sucks with it, it still doesn't make me ebb toward the side of getting rid of it just because they're bad at it. Again I just feel its too ensconced, too key. At the end of the day I just can't get on board with that when its still an aspect I like so much about the character. That they suck with it just doesn't make me want to abandon it and the hope it will be used correctly. I mean, really DC sucks at a lot of things with the character. Most things, I'd argue, at least in the main line which always gets the most attention. They've sucked with him for a long time now on average. But I don't want him abandoned wholesale because not many within the company can write him and higher up they flat out don't seem to care, content on him coasting on his name. To each their own of course and at the end of the day, if people are interested enough to see it play out for a little bit I don't disrespect that stance.

    But me personally, I just don't care about it. I remember back when Superman got new electric powers. I knew it was temporary, but at the same time I thought it might be kind of fun and I didn't mind. And for me it indeed ended up being fun. But this, it just does nothing for me. I don't even agree with the praise Bendis has gotten for how he's done it. I think that's been bad too. Its too perfect, there's zero conflict. Its the exact opposite of one of Truth's problems in that regard. Everything there was constant misery. Here everyone's just cool with everything about it and all's been well. So that its more than likely temporary isn't really much of a security blanket for me.

    To boot I've always felt there was a point in evolving a character to where its evolution that fundamentally changes them too much. Evolution can go too far in my opinion, and this is a particular case in which I feel it has for Superman. Again even with the knowledge that like most big changes it will be temporary. That's just my personal stance, agree to disagree on this one (holy crap it does happen sometimes!)
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-09-2020 at 09:45 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  9. #8754
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    How often has Clark Kent actually mattered in recent years?
    Wow! I have had the reverse complaint. Its all about clark kent, These past years.

  10. #8755
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    Well, this stinks. Aside from pacing issues and a few story choices/executions here and there, I have absolutely ADORED Bendis's time on these books. One of my absolute favourite modern runs. I hope whoever follows him isn't afraid to organically move this forward, make Superman himself more proactive as Bendis has, be as inventive with his powers... and I desperately hope they maintain the quality of his voice. It can't be understated how well Bendis has captured Superman himself. Let's hope that sticks.

  11. #8756
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Bendis on wrapping up his SM run:

    "It’s sooooo far away. Kind of a non headline. Don’t even worry about it today."

    https://twitter.com/BRIANMBENDIS/sta...76490048962560

  12. #8757
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    Quote Originally Posted by titansupes View Post
    Well, this stinks. Aside from pacing issues and a few story choices/executions here and there, I have absolutely ADORED Bendis's time on these books. One of my absolute favourite modern runs. I hope whoever follows him isn't afraid to organically move this forward, make Superman himself more proactive as Bendis has, be as inventive with his powers... and I desperately hope they maintain the quality of his voice. It can't be understated how well Bendis has captured Superman himself. Let's hope that sticks.
    I absolutely love Bendis' voice for Superman. He gets him. Everything else ranges from like to meh to ugh, no. Overall, I didn't hate his run.

  13. #8758
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I absolutely love Bendis' voice for Superman. He gets him. Everything else ranges from like to meh to ugh, no. Overall, I didn't hate his run.
    Yeah! Getting voice great and all his superman is very bland for me. Boring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Bendis on wrapping up his SM run:

    "It’s sooooo far away. Kind of a non headline. Don’t even worry about it today."

    https://twitter.com/BRIANMBENDIS/sta...76490048962560
    Well, here we go. I was hoping for a different voice on atleast superman, if not jon.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-10-2020 at 07:00 AM.

  14. #8759
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Bendis on wrapping up his SM run:

    "It’s sooooo far away. Kind of a non headline. Don’t even worry about it today."

    https://twitter.com/BRIANMBENDIS/sta...76490048962560
    Yep I’m calling it now, he won’t be off until at least after Death Metal. So 2021 perhaps is when he will be done.

  15. #8760
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I dunno, the whole idea of Superman outing himself just feels kind of boring to me. Like it takes away some of the mystique and nuance in favor of yet another 24/7 Superhero
    You're not wrong in that it moves Clark closer to the modern average where nobody has a secret identity, and in that way becomes less unique and distinct. But what earns this a free pass for me is the stuff we're getting on top of it. It's not just a matter of Bendis removing an element from the mythos and leaving us with less because of it, he's added in the UP/political element to make up the difference. So I see it less as Clark losing the dual identity and more like both sides evolving. We haven't really gotten to see how these things will play out yet (seriously, it's only been a couple issues, not nearly enough time to set up a new modus operandi) but there's potential here; "Clark Kent" was the guy who dealt with the various "shades of gray" that is humanity, and now it'll be "Superman" trying to navigate those waters. It was always "Superman" people looked to as a beacon of hope, but now "Clark Kent" is going to have to provide that security. It has potential to be a really interest examination of the tension between the two sides of Kal-El's life. Whether that potential will be realized? We'll have to give it time to find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    To boot I've always felt there was a point in evolving a character to where its evolution that fundamentally changes them too much. Evolution can go too far in my opinion, and this is a particular case in which I feel it has for Superman. Again even with the knowledge that like most big changes it will be temporary. That's just my personal stance, agree to disagree on this one (holy crap it does happen sometimes!)
    We *do* occasionally disagree, though I don't think we've ever disagreed on much at all until Bendis. And even then, it took some time for our opinions to diverge.

    Huh. I wonder if our politics align as much as our comic sensibilities do? I don't wanna talk about that though, for fear of people assuming we're the same guy again!

    And no, DC being super awful with the secret identity and the duality of Superman isn't reason enough to dump the concept. But it's a good enough reason to put it aside for a little bit and do something different. Besides, we're not losing the secret ID, it's still in every other Super product. It's not being forgotten and abandoned any more than the classic powerset was abandoned during the electric phase.

    I mean....I get it. You know what my opinions on Superman are and you know how much I value this aspect of the mythos. If Bendis wasn't making this interesting I'd feel the same way you do. And part of me thinks that Bendis is one of the few guys who actually gets and understands Superman (at least more than most writers) so it's kind of a shame that we're not seeing the duality and secret ID, since Bendis actually does it fairly well. But I look at it like you looked at the electric powers; yeah it's a big deviation but it's interesting and it's not likely to last long, and we've still got "classic" Superman in other places, so why not?

    I'm not trying to change your mind (or anyone else's). I'm just making my argument for why I like it. You don't like it, cool. I never thought I'd be saying "Bendis on Superman, and taking away the secret identity? Sign me up!!" But here we are.

    It won't last in any case, and unlike 99% of shock value changes this one actually makes sense. So I'm down with seeing how "politician Kent" plays out, comfortable in the knowledge that we'll be back to classic Clark before too long....and DC's inability to do it right. And for me, that's really the crux of it; right now we have a writer who I think gets the character and is telling (mostly) good stories with him. That's rare these days. So I'll take that, and the changes Bendis wants to play with, over a Superman who has all the classic trappings but isn't written like Superman at all, but instead a shallow caricature of him.

    Wow! I have had the reverse complaint. Its all about clark kent, These past years.
    I'm just using the term differently than you're thinking of it, I think. Yes, there hasn't been a lot of "Superman" in the books, what we've gotten is "Clark Kent in a cape." I'm not talking about that (basically the "Clark is who I am" thing), I'm talking about the trappings and elements that go along with "Clark Kent; mild mannered reporter." The duality of the character, the life that Clark leads which Superman has very little to do with, stuff like that.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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