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  1. #8596
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So in other words "We don't like Johns' reboot idea anymore so we're doing mine."

    That still doesn't match up though. Clock brought back the Kents (and Clark-Superboy?), and Bendis is running with that, but we don't also get Clark in the Legion, even though the current setup leaves a perfectly viable way to do that and Clock already established it? They just gonna cherry pick the crap they want from Clock, and prove that the continuity really doesn't matter, huh?

    Bah. A pox on you DC! If I have to put up with living Kents the least you coulda done is balance that out with the Legion.
    "We're gonna fix the timeline" :breaks it even more:

    I have pretty much every confidence that this tried and true method is exactly what's going to happen with Death Metal too.

    I'm not married to much from Doomsday Clock at the end of the day, but good lord their buffer of redoing the timeline is actually shrinking. Its gone from a circa 5 year thing to 2! Its ridiculous. DC is basically what Stewie is describing in this line here: https://youtu.be/_ZcDbD7hPEk?t=74

    I did like was Johns' explanation of how the multiverse creates new copies of worlds. I'd like that to be kept but I doubt even that much.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-24-2020 at 11:38 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  2. #8597
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Did Clark travel to the past as Superboy instead of the future?
    No, he was born back then. His ship lands the same day Wonder Woman reveals herself to the world. Bruce is also born back then, and his parents die back then. And Clark seems to stop acting as Superboy when vigilantes are outlawed, and then he kicks off the rebirth of the heroic age by showing up as Superman a few years later.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  3. #8598
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    From the upcoming issue 22 of Superman





    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-24-2020 at 04:27 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #8599
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But in regards to continuity, Death Metal is supposed to be about making "everything" (though we know it doesn't really me capital E Everything) count basically like the timeline DiDio showed off. It sounds so much like the timeline in fact, that I'm incline to think that it is some form of it, and that'll be what DC sticks with. In the timeline Clark was Superboy as a kid, the JSA were around, Wonder Woman was the first superhero, and there was no mention of the Legion or Clark going into the future.
    It's true that Clock was supposed to matter and ended up being its own sorta self-contained thing. But if you're gonna let some parts of it leak into the main continuity, you might as well let all of it in. I mean, ultimately, what do we get out of it? The JSA is returned, but with no indication of how they'd be used going forward (so it won't be in Snyder's way). We got the Legion back, already bent around Bendis' reboot. We get the stuff with Clark's career as Superboy, the Kents, and Clark's time with the Legion (it was mentioned in Clock). It's not much, and none of it really gets in the way of anything. And we get the metaverse, which is a fantastic concept that'll rarely, if ever, be used, just like hypertime and the multiverse, so it's a cool toy in the chest for the occasional story and nothing more.

    I know Didio being fired and the delays on Clock threw everything out of whack, and we'll see what DC comes up with once the pandemic is over and things get back to some semblance of normal. But I'm getting real tired of half-assed reboot stories that are retconned before the final issue even hits. Stuff happens, and things change behind the scenes, and that's just business, but I feel like we've been saying that for ten years, waiting for DC to get a clue and enact a plan they'll actually stick to for more than five minutes. It's getting old.

    I mean, the New52 was rushed and full of problems and fell apart after a few years. Rebirth was essentially abandoned before the main thrust of the over-all plot (the Manhattan stuff) could get started. Clock got thrown out the window as a viable reboot before it finished. 5G seems to be in troubled waters and we haven't even seen the first issue.

    You notice how DC keeps falling apart faster and faster?

    I like the idea behind the big 5G timeline, that might give me exactly what I want from DC and might even provide the most solid foundation for continuity we've had since COIE. And I've already accepted that I'm unlikely to get the Legion back in Clark's backstory anyway, and will happily trade that for him being active with the United Planets. At this point I'm just annoyed that it could be put back so easily and apparently won't be. But DC seems less capable than the people who write fan fiction; they've got a shorter attention span than a freshman with ADHD, so what reason do I have to put any faith in Metal 2 or 5G or whatever they're doing this week? What am I paying them for, when they can't even figure out what their continuity looks like, much less their plans for the future?
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  5. #8600
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    * "So there’s a debate that will handle, like, does Superman represent Earth? Do we want Superman to represent Earth? Does the FBI want that? Do all the governments of the world want this?"

    That truly fascinates me. And one could be forgiven for seeing "super election" when they read that. Then one has to wonder if the new cosmic threat had anything to do with the tape getting out? Was it even done with any ill intent?

    If Clark does represent Earth then what does that look like on Earth's end? Does he continue with his job? How does this play with House of Kent aka the Superman family becoming a good crime family?

    ____________


    * My biggest take away though was Bendis saying "Superman’s responsibilities to the United Planets versus our planet". That's a really specific way to word that. It reads like this is how Bendis plans on moving Clark on from the role of Superman. Clark now has ever growing responsibilities to the United Planets since it's still growing, and, as we've seen with Mongul, has very real threats facing it. And it growing into what its meant to be means a proven brighter future for everyone.

    If there were anything that could unseat Clark willingly as Superman, I'd say this is would be a good contender.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #8601
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's true that Clock was supposed to matter and ended up being its own sorta self-contained thing. But if you're gonna let some parts of it leak into the main continuity, you might as well let all of it in. I mean, ultimately, what do we get out of it? The JSA is returned, but with no indication of how they'd be used going forward (so it won't be in Snyder's way). We got the Legion back, already bent around Bendis' reboot. We get the stuff with Clark's career as Superboy, the Kents, and Clark's time with the Legion (it was mentioned in Clock). It's not much, and none of it really gets in the way of anything. And we get the metaverse, which is a fantastic concept that'll rarely, if ever, be used, just like hypertime and the multiverse, so it's a cool toy in the chest for the occasional story and nothing more.
    Johns ultimately seemed to kind of be doing his thing, and now with Snyder's words I'm now incline to believe the old rumors around the 5G rumors that said that had Doomsday Clock started any later it would've just straight up been an out of continuity Black Label thing. And stuff like the Kents not dying New 52 style and Clark haven been Superboy were already things shown in the timeline before Doomsday Clock was even done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    At this point I'm just annoyed that it could be put back so easily and apparently won't be.
    Sure it's fine to be frustrated about that, but you have to take into account the fact that it's never been a question of how simple it would be to put something back or change something. It's words and pictures, so literally anything is possible in that sense. But it's a question of the bigger picture of the Legion property and where they want to go with it, and most importantly how they want to get there. They have plans for it that include Jon, and they don't seem to want to add in the winkle of Clark as a boy just for the sake of getting to say Clark was there too.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 05-24-2020 at 04:26 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  7. #8602
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    On the one hand, the direction Bendis is taking Clark in Superman is extremely intruiguing and could do for a fascinating story.

    On the other, I have very little faith in the ability of most comics writers to write realistic and even non-cliché/copy-pasta of the US system for other countries.

    And it's not a diss on Bendis or anyone, because I wouldn't be able to write things like that for the US as a French, when I'm bathing in US political contest by the sheer "virtue" of their influence over the Western World.

    Overall, I'm afraid that this element, while necessary for the whole story to be consistent and well-developped, may prove too arduous to tackle...
    Last edited by Korath; 05-25-2020 at 01:55 AM.

  8. #8603
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    From the upcoming issue 22 of Superman





    Finally, now this is what i am talking about. I hope we get some awesome kickass moments and battle.

  9. #8604
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    No, he was born back then. His ship lands the same day Wonder Woman reveals herself to the world. Bruce is also born back then, and his parents die back then. And Clark seems to stop acting as Superboy when vigilantes are outlawed, and then he kicks off the rebirth of the heroic age by showing up as Superman a few years later.
    So, Batman is 70 years old? You can do that with Superman i guess. It sounds something similar to Supreme. As much as i love the book, i would hate it for Superman. He would be 70 years old in the main continuity. Plus, he gave up being Superboy when vigilantes were outlawed? That's not what i want to see. Gives me flashbacks to Dark Knight Returns. When would Superman grow a spine?

    If this is the backstory they will go with, i would most likely drop the books. I think that is my line of tolerance.

  10. #8605
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    So, Batman is 70 years old?
    Yeah basically. It seems to be hinted at in the interview with Snyder when he says "the heroes learn that Crises past have contorted the timeline and the DC timeline was been twisted by these Crises; almost knotted at certain moments and caused us to forget certain stories and caused us to start over at different times, to feel twisted and separated from our own past and future."

    Particularly the "start over at different times" thing. That seems to point towards the idea that the heroes aren't at the ages or points in life where they're supposed to be because the Crises keep starting them over. And from everything I've read surrounding the book, the idea seems to be to treat the starting over as a problem, and unify the timeline by adding in the lost decades of events to their lives.

    Last we heard on the subject, the plan was to set some books in the past of this new continuity, and have them be where you get classic Clark, Bruce, and so on stories set when Clark restarted the age of heroes as Superman. It reminds me of back when a lot of us wanted a book about t shirt and jeans Superman set in the past to counter balance armor preset day Superman.


    Plus, he gave up being Superboy when vigilantes were outlawed? That's not what i want to see. Gives me flashbacks to Dark Knight Returns. When would Superman grow a spine?
    To be fair, he'd have just been a kid at the time, and he'd have just see a group of people he admired have to agree with it too. Plus, from the sound of it (it says that he worked in secret as Superboy) he hadn't revealed his alien roots to the world. I wouldn't really compare it to DKR.

    And it's still Clark who brings back the age of heroes when he's Superman years later.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #8606
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Johns ultimately seemed to kind of be doing his thing, and now with Snyder's words I'm now incline to believe the old rumors around the 5G rumors that said that had Doomsday Clock started any later it would've just straight up been an out of continuity Black Label thing. And stuff like the Kents not dying New 52 style and Clark haven been Superboy were already things shown in the timeline before Doomsday Clock was even done.
    Sure they showed up before Clock was done, that series took twice as long to tell as it should've and you can only expect other books to spin their wheels for so long before you gotta start advancing their narrative.

    I'm sure Clock would've been self-contained from the start had it started any later, Johns lost his pull at DC shortly after it began. But the Kents being alive again and Superboy, that came from Clock (even if others got to use it before Clock could drag itself across the finish line) so if you use some of it, might as well use it all.

    I'd be perfectly happy if none of Clock made its way into the main canon, but I dislike these half measures.

    Sure it's fine to be frustrated about that, but you have to take into account the fact that it's never been a question of how simple it would be to put something back or change something. It's words and pictures, so literally anything is possible in that sense. But it's a question of the bigger picture of the Legion property and where they want to go with it, and most importantly how they want to get there. They have plans for it that include Jon, and they don't seem to want to add in the winkle of Clark as a boy just for the sake of getting to say Clark was there too.
    Oh, I know the reasoning behind this current version of the Legion and I can't fault Bendis' logic. Giving the future to the kids? Yeah, I get that. I just don't agree with taking it out of Clark's backstory. The Legion fills in a lot of blanks and answers a lot of questions, and ultimately I'm just tired of seeing Clark lose elements of his mythos for the benefit of others.

    I get what DC is doing with the Legion and why, and I can't fault them for it, I just don't fully agree and it hampers Clark, who doesn't need any more knocks against him.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

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  12. #8607
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Last we heard on the subject, the plan was to set some books in the past of this new continuity, and have them be where you get classic Clark, Bruce, and so on stories set when Clark restarted the age of heroes as Superman. It reminds me of back when a lot of us wanted a book about t shirt and jeans Superman set in the past to counter balance armor preset day Superman.
    I really hope this is what we get. A book set in the past, with classic "triangle for two" Superman, maybe one with married Superdad, and one with Super-Jon would be my ideal. I'd read all of those.

    That big 5G timeline truly could be exactly what we need.....if DC can do it right, and actually stick to a plan for more than five seconds, which they still seem unable to manage....but I'm trying to be hopeful that the kinks will be worked out before stuff hits the shelves.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  13. #8608
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But the Kents being alive again and Superboy, that came from Clock (even if others got to use it before Clock could drag itself across the finish line) so if you use some of it, might as well use it all.
    I honestly think the idea just came from pre-flashpoint in general. I mean, that's where Doomsday Clock got the idea too. It's just two ways of reverting to the same thing, and the rest is semantics. It's just that in Johns' version he was literally just going back to how things were, but for everyone else the idea was always to add and subtract things to make something new.


    I get what DC is doing with the Legion and why, and I can't fault them for it, I just don't fully agree and it hampers Clark, who doesn't need any more knocks against him.
    You have to remember that more than a few perspective readers who grew up in the modern era might not really view these as "knocks". The hampering you have in mind might be largely if not exclusively felt by only the most deep-end Superman fans. Clark with the Legion isn't really the most prevailing take these days, and a good amount of people don't even regard Clark and Superboy as having been the same person.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #8609
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah basically. It seems to be hinted at in the interview with Snyder when he says "the heroes learn that Crises past have contorted the timeline and the DC timeline was been twisted by these Crises; almost knotted at certain moments and caused us to forget certain stories and caused us to start over at different times, to feel twisted and separated from our own past and future."
    This isn't confusing at all.

    Particularly the "start over at different times" thing. That seems to point towards the idea that the heroes aren't at the ages or points in life where they're supposed to be because the Crises keep starting them over. And from everything I've read surrounding the book, the idea seems to be to treat the starting over as a problem, and unify the timeline by adding in the lost decades of events to their lives.
    So, in simpler terms with crises they kept starting all over again, even if they started way back. Is it for heroes alone or for other characters as well? Is Perry White 100 years old?

    Last we heard on the subject, the plan was to set some books in the past of this new continuity, and have them be where you get classic Clark, Bruce, and so on stories set when Clark restarted the age of heroes as Superman. It reminds me of back when a lot of us wanted a book about t shirt and jeans Superman set in the past to counter balance armor preset day Superman.
    Yes, that would be necessary.

    To be fair, he'd have just been a kid at the time, and he'd have just see a group of people he admired have to agree with it too. Plus, from the sound of it (it says that he worked in secret as Superboy) he hadn't revealed his alien roots to the world. I wouldn't really compare it to DKR.

    And it's still Clark who brings back the age of heroes when he's Superman years later.
    Yes, if i am being fair it does not sound that bad. But this is not the kind of thinking i want to see for the character. I have seen many reasons why Superman quits. But by government order is one of the lamest ones. I hope he keeps helping in secret or goes to 31st Century or space or something like that.

    This could have come up. But i recently heard about Superman 2000 in more detail. One of the ideas was that the JSA act as a sort of John the Baptist. They did their job. But their part was over. They helped groom Superman who was the real deal. Like Jesus. Parallels aside, the idea was that Superman is touched or inspired by the older generation of heroes in some way.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-25-2020 at 08:12 AM.

  15. #8610
    Astonishing Member sifighter's Avatar
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    You know I think I’d like to see an elseworld series where an older JSA meet and train a young Superboy, not an adult superman who is among them but a young starting out Clark Kent who gets trained an experienced JSA. Could be set in the 70’s or 80’s.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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