Page 430 of 446 FirstFirst ... 330380420426427428429430431432433434440 ... LastLast
Results 6,436 to 6,450 of 6678
  1. #6436
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,943

    Default

    So Clark killed Ma Kent's cat with his laser vision by mistake while trying to save its live? Clark's best friend growing up was an the grand-son of the league of assassins? Clark was forced to move to Metropolis as a boy against his wishes? Sorry, but no. You are either purposely ignoring the differences between Clark and Jon's experiences or you are looking closely enough.
    I'm talking themes, I pointed out as such. I didn't say nor suggest every single minute detail of their lives were exactly the same. I said the themes were not unique. And I stand by that. Superman/boy has dealt with loss, dealt with learning the pitfalls of his powers, dealt with having comrades with seedy pasts, etc. Clark never moved from the Kent farm as a kid. I guess that's something. But by and large the kid is just not breaking any barriers. I'm not even arguing that's reason to not do it again. You can do those things with another character. Its not out of bounds of anything. But he's not unique.

    And how is acknowledging a lack of overall popularity of the company ridiculous? Its just putting everything into perspective. The original SS was keeping pace with other middling titles. It got canceled originally for a new direction, and because it was middling it wasn't that big a risk for DC to take. Same lack of risk if they decided to cancel Supergirl and do something really different with her. Yeah you risk alienating the fans they have, but they're not top tier and it doesn't make that much a dent in sales. Therein lies the point: from a business perspective, changing Jon up wasn't the blunder its being made out to be because the risk is minimal. It hasn't affected anything in regards to their bottom line. Substantially changing Clark Kent or something, that would. Its just about perspective. With this change-up and the supposed negative effects of it, its putting Jon on the pedestal of the big guns and he's not that by a sight.

    As far as the comparison of Speedy-to-Arsenal is in the status of the character's popularity, not the specifics of what was changed. The point is the same: Jon isn't as popular as he's made out to be. He's not unpopular but he's not the best thing since sliced bread either. That's the only point I've made.

    In any case, respect your disagreements.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-15-2019 at 11:28 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  2. #6437
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    So Clark killed Ma Kent's cat with his laser vision by mistake while trying to save its live? Clark's best friend growing up was an the grand-son of the league of assassins? Clark was forced to move to Metropolis as a boy against his wishes? Sorry, but no. You are either purposely ignoring the differences between Clark and Jon's experiences or you are looking closely enough.
    But then, by this same logic, Clark never grew up under the pressure of being Superman's son, or felt he might fall short of that ideal when it's his turn, or been freaked out by the idea of turning into an evil Superman in an alternate timeline. Clark also never went on a space road trip with his estranged grandfather. He never got sucked into a black whole where he was captured by his dad's evil alternate, and he never had to escape that.

    Him joining the Legion doesn't somehow automatically make him a Clark clone like I've seen yourself and other assert for some reason.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


    -Coffee That

    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  3. #6438
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm talking themes, I pointed out as such. I didn't say nor suggest every single minute detail of their lives were exactly the same. I said the themes were not unique. And I stand by that. Superman/boy has dealt with loss, dealt with learning the pitfalls of his powers, dealt with having comrades with seedy pasts, etc. Clark never moved from the Kent farm as a kid. I guess that's something. But by and large the kid is just not breaking any barriers. I'm not even arguing that's reason to not do it again. You can do those things with another character. Its not out of bounds of anything. But he's not unique.
    I wasn't taking themes. I was never talking themes when I originally made the comment about Bendis making Jon less unique that you apparently took exception too. I was talking character. You don't get to pick apart my comment and then try to change what we're talking about because I'm rebuffing your points. If you expand it to broad themes then you can literally claim every has been done before and nothing is original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And how is acknowledging a lack of overall popularity of the company ridiculous? Its just putting everything into perspective. The original SS was keeping pace with other middling titles. It got canceled originally for a new direction, and because it was middling it wasn't that big a risk for DC to take. Same lack of risk if they decided to cancel Supergirl and do something really different with her. Yeah you risk alienating the fans they have, but they're not top tier and it doesn't make that much a dent in sales. Therein lies the point: from a business perspective, changing Jon up wasn't the blunder its being made out to be because the risk is minimal. It hasn't affected anything in regards to their bottom line. Substantially changing Clark Kent or something, that would. Its just about perspective. With this change-up and the supposed negative effects of it, its putting Jon on the pedestal of the big guns and he's not that by a sight.
    No, claiming that Jon is not popular when his title was keeping pace with plenty of non-Batman popular characters is ridiculous. No one is talking about Jon's popularity in terms of Harry Potter or Star Wars. They're talking in the terms of DC comics where he has been pretty successful.

    And who says this hasn't affected DC's bottom line? Aged-up Jon hasn't been a co-lead or a lead on a book and an argument could easily be made that Adventures of Super Sons would be pulling in better numbers if it was more connected to the rest of the DC universe. Bendis's Superman is selling significantly lower than Tomasi's at the same point in its run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    As far as the comparison of Speedy-to-Arsenal is in the status of the character's popularity, not the specifics of what was changed. The point is the same: Jon isn't as popular as he's made out to be. He's not unpopular but he's not the best thing since sliced bread either. That's the only point I've made.

    In any case, respect your disagreements.
    The change is the issue for people so that has to be factored into the equation. Hence, the Roy comparison simply doesn't work.

    Where are the people claiming Jon is more popular than sliced bread? He doesn't have to be sliced bread to be popular. Jon is popular. You're just claiming his fanbase is trying to hold him up to an impossible standard, so you can make this argument that he isn't popular. Dude, you may not like him, but a ton of people do. Deal with it.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Adventures of the Super Sons, Teen Titans, Justice League, Doomsday Clock, Justice League Dark, Wonder Woman

    Image: Lazarus, Black Magick

    Boom: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Go Go Power Rangers

  4. #6439
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But then, by this same logic, Clark never grew up under the pressure of being Superman's son, or felt he might fall short of that ideal when it's his turn, or been freaked out by the idea of turning into an evil Superman in an alternate timeline. Clark also never went on a space road trip with his estranged grandfather. He never got sucked into a black whole where he was captured by his dad's evil alternate, and he never had to escape that.

    Him joining the Legion doesn't somehow automatically make him a Clark clone like I've seen yourself and other assert for some reason.
    We're talking about the endgame of Bendis's story here, not the method he took to get there. There's a difference between the path to get there and the final result. Bendis may have used that really stupid story to explain why Jon is 17, but it was all done to get him to the place of doing something Clark already did. The path there can be different, but that doesn't mean he isn't being turned into a Clark clone as the end result.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Adventures of the Super Sons, Teen Titans, Justice League, Doomsday Clock, Justice League Dark, Wonder Woman

    Image: Lazarus, Black Magick

    Boom: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Go Go Power Rangers

  5. #6440
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,392

    Default Kind of shocked no one is talking about this

    It's another Bendis interview regarding the Legion, but this time he's talking more about how it relates to the Superman family, issues 12-15, and Jon Kent.

    https://www.newsarama.com/45609-bria...an-august.html

    I'll just throw up some notes and key points for everyone's convenience

    * This is the first time the Legion will have existed in this incarnation of the DCU. Brian Michael Bendis: "Yes. The debut of the Legion of Super-Heroes — and there are now, at the moment, no Legion of Super-Heroes — but their debut in this DC Universe is going to be in the pages of Superman."


    * Nrama: "Does that mean there’s already a relationship between the Legion and Clark, perhaps that already exists? Or are they starting anew with that relationship now?"

    Bendis: "I don’t want to spoil what the relationship is to the Superman family, but it is a version of the classic relationship.They have come here for a reason, and that reason is because of something that happened in the Superman family. And that is all going to be revealed on page."

    Note: This is what I'm surprised no one is talking about. The implication here seems to be that their relationship with Superman and his family isn't that they came to Clark when he was younger, and they paled around with him in the future because, as Bendis just said, there was no Legion before this point. Newsarama thinks the "version of the classic relationship" is that Jon is the first ever Superboy to join this team (https://www.newsarama.com/45627-was-...boy-s-age.html). They also think the book might be called "Superboy and The Legion of Superheroes."


    * Nrama: "Hmm… do I sense you avoiding that question about Jon?"

    Bendis: "Literally, the answer to your question is the spoil at the end of the issue. [Laughs.] That’s why I’m not — it’s literally a spoiler. I’m sorry I’m not answering it more straight."


    * Bendis: "Yes, in Superman #14. The United Planets, the Legion — it all happens in #14. It starts in #12, but it really lands in #14."


    * Bendis: "This whole storyline has been a build-up to get to this moment."

    Nrama: "The current Superman storyline?"

    Bendis: "It’s been going on, literally, since I walked into the door at DC Comics. It’s been building to this moment."


    * Bendis: "They take you to a place that is so completely unique that the movies haven’t even gone there yet.

    The Legion of Super-Heroes is one of the few corners of comics that you could only get in comics now. And that got super-exciting to me, the idea that there is something so powerful, so potent, so full of imagination that comics is where they have to be."



    * Nrama: "OK, you just spoke the language for Legion fans."

    Bendis: "Yeah, ‘cause I’m one of them. The Young Justice and their point of view is something I deeply believe in. I will only be able to show you, with the first couple issues of Legion, that what the Legion are bringing is something even more potent and even more powerful.

    We actually get to leave where we are and go 1,000 years into the future. I can’t think of anything more inviting right now, in the world we live in.

    I would love to travel 1,000 years into the future to see a hopeful Age of Heroes. That sounds exciting. I think about it every day as I’m writing it. And that’s what I’m promising."
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-15-2019 at 12:48 PM.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


    -Coffee That

    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  6. #6441
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    We're talking about the endgame of Bendis's story here, not the method he took to get there. There's a difference between the path to get there and the final result. Bendis may have used that really stupid story to explain why Jon is 17, but it was all done to get him to the place of doing something Clark already did. The path there can be different, but that doesn't mean he isn't being turned into a Clark clone as the end result.
    Huh? But you just argued specifics with SK, just now. By this new logic you're presenting, Jurgens, Tomasi, and Gleason just did everything to get Jon to be Superboy, just like his dad, best friends with someone who will one day become Batman, just like his dad, and come from a small town, just like his dad. They were literally setting him up to be Superman with Batman as his best friend.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 06-15-2019 at 12:55 PM.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


    -Coffee That

    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  7. #6442
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Huh? But you just argued specifics with SK, just now. By this new logic you're presenting, Jurgens, Tomasi, and Gleason just did everything to get Jon to be Superboy, just like his dad, best friends with someone who will one day become Batman, and come from a small town. They were literally setting him up to be Superman with Batman as his best friend.
    No, you were pointing out that I was complaining about a new Legion status quo for Jon. I wasn't saying Jon was a Clark clone because of the journey to age him up. I was talking about the end result. The status quo that Bendis has been building up to.

    The status quo for Jon before Bendis was very different from what Clark experienced. He had moved to the big city, he was going to a fancy private school, he was a sidekick to Superman, and he had this brilliant complicated relationship with Damian. He was also a different kind of kid than Clark was. Sure there were similarities, though they're have to be. We all have some similarities to our parents. But Jon as a kid was different than Clark.

    Sending Jon to be with the Legion would be getting rid of all those qualities to do something Clark's already done. That's the problem.

    And if you go back and read Super Sons, that idea of Jon and Damian as future Superman and Batman wasn't exactly what was being set up. There was the threat of a somewhat more dangerous possibility.
    Last edited by Sam; 06-15-2019 at 12:58 PM.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Adventures of the Super Sons, Teen Titans, Justice League, Doomsday Clock, Justice League Dark, Wonder Woman

    Image: Lazarus, Black Magick

    Boom: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Go Go Power Rangers

  8. #6443
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The status quo for Jon before Bendis was very different from what Clark experienced. He had moved to the big city, he was going to a fancy private school, he was a sidekick to Superman, and he had this brilliant complicated relationship with Damian. He was also a different kind of kid than Clark was. Sure there were similarities, though they're have to be. We all have some similarities to our parents. But Jon as a kid was different than Clark.
    But, like how the fact that he's now a teen going to the Legion, he was Superboy on his way to becoming Superman. He has a complicated friendship with a Wayne who will become Batman. He even grew up in a small town. Hell Tomasi once literally called it Jon's Smallville. Just like how the specifics are 100% different with how Jon become Superboy and will one day be Superman, the specifics are 100% different with how he's grown into a young adult and is on his way to Jon the Legion.

    Like, I got no beef with you not digging it, but it just feels like the goal post get moved a lot when it comes to this conversation. I remember reading about how much some of the fans who didn't like the age up were angry about how this moved Jon away from having more "mini Clark" like qualities, how Jon would no longer have reverence for his father, or have moments of innocence. He's now continuing to fallow in his fathers foot steps his own way, he's still listening to his father and calling him sir, and he's having adorable moments with Krypto, but now he's too similar to Clark?

    Like I said, it feels like moving the goal post, so I dunno, man. I hope everyone finds something to like on some level.
    #MakeAlexGreatAgain

    "Your videos give us hope. They give us strength in these times of slow normals, Chun-Li costumes and rampant New York fires.
    We shall overcome. The day will come when we are all warmed up."


    -Coffee That

    PM me if you tryina mix it up in SFV (and Dragon Ball FighterZ). Just know: the hypa bomb takes no prisoners.

  9. #6444
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But, like how the fact that he's now a teen going to the Legion, he was Superboy on his way to becoming Superman. He has a complicated friendship with a Wayne who will become Batman. He even grew up in a small town. Hell Tomasi once literally called it Jon's Smallville. Just like how the specifics are 100% different with how Jon become Superboy and will one day be Superman, the specifics are 100% different with how he's grown into a young adult and is on his way to Jon the Legion.

    Like, I got no beef with you not digging it, but it just feels like the goal post get moved a lot when it comes to this conversation. I remember reading about how much some of the fans who didn't like the age up were angry about how this moved Jon away from having more "mini Clark" like qualities, how Jon would no longer have reverence for his father, or have moments of innocence. He's now continuing to fallow in his fathers foot steps his own way, he's still listening to his father and calling him sir, and he's having adorable moments with Krypto, but now he's too similar to Clark?

    Like I said, it feels like moving the goal post, so I dunno, man. I hope everyone finds something to like on some level.
    My criticisms are consistent as always

    Age up Jon is redundant and now he is in a position where he can be shipped away and never used again.

  10. #6445
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But, like how the fact that he's now a teen going to the Legion, he was Superboy on his way to becoming Superman. He has a complicated friendship with a Wayne who will become Batman. He even grew up in a small town. Hell Tomasi once literally called it Jon's Smallville. Just like how the specifics are 100% different with how Jon become Superboy and will one day be Superman, the specifics are 100% different with how he's grown into a young adult and is on his way to Jon the Legion.

    Like, I got no beef with you not digging it, but it just feels like the goal post get moved a lot when it comes to this conversation. I remember reading about how much some of the fans who didn't like the age up were angry about how this moved Jon away from having more "mini Clark" like qualities, how Jon would no longer have reverence for his father, or have moments of innocence. He's now continuing to fallow in his fathers foot steps his own way, he's still listening to his father and calling him sir, and he's having adorable moments with Krypto, but now he's too similar to Clark?

    Like I said, it feels like moving the goal post, so I dunno, man. I hope everyone finds something to like on some level.
    I have never said that the problems from the age was that it was taking away Jon's "mini-clark" like qualities. That's not something I ever felt. So I don't know how I'm moving goal posts if that wasn't something I argued. And again, Jon and Damian imagined being Batman and Superman, but that doesn't mean that was actually what Tomasi was setting them up for and it doesn't mean they were viewing it the same way that Clark and Bruce did when they were kids. It's different. Meanwhile, Bendis literally seems to be re-imagining the Legion of Superheroes with Jon in Clark's place.

    I have many problems with the age-up, but the biggest will always be the seven years we lost. I have MANY other problems with it as well, but until we get those seven years back, I find it unlikely I'll be happy with Jon's direction, which is heartbreaking for me. If it isn't obvious already, I'm feeling pretty frustrated.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Adventures of the Super Sons, Teen Titans, Justice League, Doomsday Clock, Justice League Dark, Wonder Woman

    Image: Lazarus, Black Magick

    Boom: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Go Go Power Rangers

  11. #6446
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    237

    Default

    "But Jon personality is the same"

    No man, adult jon is a caricature of kid jon. Kid Jon is bubbly, emotive, energetic and ball of sunshine. This adult jon is anything but that. Jon does get upset and get angry. He had a great emotional range. Now, he is just happy-go-luck(lacking the personality of kid Jon). Just read justice league issue, you can feel the difference...one is Jon Kent...and one is Jon Flanders

    And Jon Flanders is the one who is joining legion

  12. #6447
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,943

    Default

    Double post.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  13. #6448
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,943

    Default

    There's a lot of back and forth here that's getting repetitive now but just wanted to point out that I never claimed Jon didn't have fans. I certainly didn't say that his title not ever pulling Batman numbers equated to him not having any fans. And I can deal with that fact that he has fans just fine. Agree or disagree with me I think the thoughts I've portrayed are a little clearer than to come to those broad conclusions.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-15-2019 at 02:33 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  14. #6449
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    999

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    A lot of going back and forth that's just getting repetitive now but I just wanted to quote this and point out I can deal with the fact he has fans just fine. I've acknowledged it consistently. That is not and never has been what I've said anywhere here.
    Right, but when you say things like "well, he's not as popular as people make him out to be," it makes it feel like you are dismissing those fans and trying to make it seem like the character and their feelings don't matter. It may not be how you intend it, but it is how it comes off.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Adventures of the Super Sons, Teen Titans, Justice League, Doomsday Clock, Justice League Dark, Wonder Woman

    Image: Lazarus, Black Magick

    Boom: Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Go Go Power Rangers

  15. #6450
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    15,943

    Default

    Well if that's the way it comes off I apologize. I do think he's overrated, and I don't think its out of bounds to state as such and why, but I don't intend it to come across as shots fired at those who are his fans as people. While I can be critical of the mindset and others can be crticial of mine, I think that's as far as it goes. I have no qualms with any of his fans on a personal level.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •