Official : Bendis gets both books

[Superlad93]

I mean, is Jon going to be the inspiration now too?

Actually that's not confirmed. From the sound of things, the inspiration is still Superman. In the interview Bendis said that planets and civilizations died between now and the 32nd century, but the idea of Superman lived on.

[Sam]

The funny thing is, Bendis could have done some really cool things if he had used young Clark instead. Clark could be in the future dealing with the consequences of his actions in the Superman and Action Comics books, while adult Clark could have encountered earlier versions of things he recognized from his younger days in the future. Seems like a missed opportunity when the guy writing Legion is also writing Superman and Action.

We'll see, right? I mean, we feel the way we feel, but we ultimately don't know. The Legion isn't really enough of a mainstream thing for people displeased with the idea that it's a hard reboot with no Clark as Superboy to attribute this as something being "stolen." And this is being set up in a way that it's being geared towards a modern sensibility and audience for the good of inviting as many prospective fans as possible. And I think having Jon, a character who has no real predetermined future expectations attached to him, as part of this idea of an "Ultimate" take is a sound idea for himself and the Legion.

Driving away potential fans with the age up of Jon isn't going to help boost the Legion. Like you say, Legion isn't that mainstream a thing, so it needs all the good will it can get.

[Superlad93]

The funny thing is, Bendis could have done some really cool things if he had used young Clark instead. Clark could be in the future dealing with the consequences of his actions in the Superman and Action Comics books, while adult Clark could have encountered earlier versions of things he recognized from his younger days in the future. Seems like a missed opportunity when the guy writing Legion is also writing Superman and Action.

But that's not really a missed opportunity if that wasn't the goal on conception. The goal is to reboot and introduce a Legion of Superheroes with no real baggage for a modern generation, and the ability to move in any direction required with all the characters involved in the respect as the Ultimate Universe.

Driving away potential fans with the age up of Jon isn't going to help boost the Legion. Like you say, Legion isn't that mainstream a thing, so it needs all the good will it can get.

That's some of the risk/hits you take with a new direction, reboot, or even new ip, right? Bendis is gonna have to bring it the same way he brought it on Ultimate Spider-Man, and hopefully speak to a generation in a very similar way.

[Sam]

But that's not really a missed opportunity if that wasn't the goal on conception. The goal is to reboot and introduce a Legion of Superheroes with no real baggage for a modern generation, and the ability to move in any direction required with all the characters involved in the respect as the Ultimate Universe.

If that were truly the case, they wouldn't even be bringing Jon with them. Or (who we suspect is) Melody Moore.

That's some of the risk/hits you take with a new direction, reboot, or even new ip, right? Bendis is gonna have to bring it the same way he brought it on Ultimate Spider-Man, and hopefully speak to a generation in a very similar way.

Spider-Man is about as big a character as you can get. The audience is already there.

[Sacred Knight]

Actually that's not confirmed. From the sound of things, the inspiration is still Superman. In the interview Bendis said that planets and civilizations died between now and the 32nd century, but the idea of Superman lived on.

That would help me somewhat. Still not at all a fan of the idea in totality but I mean, I can only say that so many times in one day before it gets old, lol.

[Superlad93]

If that were truly the case, they wouldn't even be bringing Jon with them. Or (who we suspect is) Melody Moore.

That's not totally true though. Melody is a totally new character who has no preconceptions associated with her, and Jon is a character with no predetermined future milestones that need to be it or adhered to going forward. But you use the character with the character with the S for the recognition.

Spider-Man is about as big a character as you can get. The audience is already there.

To be fair, that wasn't really the point of my post, and maybe a bit dismissive of what he ended up accomplishing on that book. All I'm saying is that he need to bring it on this one. That's it.

[Vordan]

I thought of a compromise Bendis could do: Clark did have adventures with “a” LoSH in his youth, but actions in the present day along with Dr. Manhattan’s manipulations caused the future to shift so that the Legion Clark hung out with doesn’t exist. Essentially Clark’s Legion got rebooted with Clark being the Psycho Pirate in that he’s the only one who remembers the old Legion, but he sends his son with this new Legion because even though they’re not exactly his old friends he feels a kinship with them. That would give Bendis his clean slate while still respecting what came before. But they’ll probably just erase Clark hanging out with the Legion, this reboot will fail, and we’ll wait for the next one lol.

But that's not really a missed opportunity if that wasn't the goal on conception. The goal is to reboot and introduce a Legion of Superheroes with no real baggage for a modern generation, and the ability to move in any direction required with all the characters involved in the respect as the Ultimate Universe.



That's some of the risk/hits you take with a new direction, reboot, or even new ip, right? Bendis is gonna have to bring it the same way he brought it on Ultimate Spider-Man, and hopefully speak to a generation in a very similar way.

USM was a unique case and frankly I simply don’t see Bendis ever reaching those heights again. He couldn’t even manage to equal his earlier Peter Parker work with his Miles Morales work. Miles has been better everywhere else except under Bendis where he’s just been kind of bland and boring. Bendis failed to “update” franchises with his GotG run, which was one of the worst GotG runs ever. Even if I wasn’t worried about the number of books Bendis is taking on, I simply don’t believe this book is a good fit for him. And his YJ, while enjoyable, isn’t wowing anyone. The sales on that are pretty soft all things considered.

[Superlad93]

I thought of a compromise Bendis could do: Clark did have adventures with “a” LoSH in his youth, but actions in the present day along with Dr. Manhattan’s manipulations caused the future to shift so that the Legion Clark hung out with doesn’t exist. Essentially Clark’s Legion got rebooted with Clark being the Psycho Pirate in that he’s the only one who remembers the old Legion, but he sends his son with this new Legion because even though they’re not exactly his old friends he feels a kinship with them. That would give Bendis his clean slate while still respecting what came before. But they’ll probably just erase Clark hanging out with the Legion, this reboot will fail, and we’ll wait for the next one lol.

But what does this accomplish beyond the idea that Clark could verbalize "yeah, I used to hang out with a version of them."? This would be text book lip service.

Bendis himself has said that he's symbolically paying homage to the previous versions by setting this in the 32nd century. It doesn't mean there was another Legion before then, but it's almost like time and space are leaving those eras (the 30th and the 31st centuries) as quietly respected ground.

[Frontier]

Okay so, I've listened to the first part of the interview twice now to really confirm my feelings, and I very much feel like this Legion idea with Jon is extremely elegant in its simplicity, and just overall inspired.

Just to recap: Bendis is openly calling this his "Ultimate Legion of Super-Heroes" in the same style of his Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis that it would be obvious to those anyone who thinks about it for a second because it's "start over from scratch, take the stuff you think really is of value to this generation--to this society, this culture, and focus on that--bring out the truth." He even said "its' almost the same job" He then continued that "like with Ultimate Spider-Man, I got to cherry pick all these awesome things and bits and pieces that other creators had done over the years and put them together to be Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm getting to do the same thing with the Legion."

And with all the appropriate implications, this is INSPIRED, to me. I struggle where to even begin, but I guess it all starts with Superboy.......the original Ultimate Universe character for DC all the way back in 1945 in More Fun Comics. Superboy was created with little to no regard to Superman's continuity beyond the superficial. Superboy was specifically created to "present a version of the character to whom younger readers could easily relate." Is that LITERALLY not the origin of Ultimate Spider-Man and the whole Ultimate line? It doesn't just stop there either, because you've also got aged down versions of Lex, Mxy, and Lois showing up. They even created original characters like Lana and Pete. Once the Legion became part of his supporting cast and things were removed from the shaky promise of the continuity in Superman's book, it was its own thing basically. This is the same formula that Smallville adopted decades later.

This idea allows for an "Ultimate Superman/Superboy", in the form of Jon Kent, in the same continuity as normal Superman. This allows for Ultimate style reimaginings of classic Superboy and the Legion stories and ideas that are geared specifically towards a fresh new audience. I've been waiting for Bendis to unambiguously confirm this in some way, and here we are! So many things are clicking into place for me now in regards to the idea behind this whole thing, and it's exciting and fascinating. Genuinely, this could be something special.

So when do we get the "Spectacular" version of the Legion ?

(Or was that already the cartoon?)

Unfortunately for you my friend--and I say this with zero snark or ill-will--that's exactly what they're doing, and I think it's brilliant for the Legion. Jon, the Legion, and the prospective fans are the priority in this situation more than any other. Clark'll miss out on the often underused (if your name isn't Johns or Morrison) Legion connection, and I think he'll live. I don't mind the idea that we reimagine it as Clark's son's crazy future people friends. Just one big easy to understand metaphor for tomorrow that actually gives Clark largely the same feelings of "everything's going to be all right" that they used to.

That said, as a fan of Superman with my sensibilities, I very much appreciate the idea that Bendis is doing everything in his power to still make Clark a big part of the Legion outside of Jon in the form him starting the United Planets in the modern day, and also still being the inspiration.

I just don't see why you can't have both to be honest. It seems like it would be simple for both Clark and Jon to have been in the Legion in their teen years with the way the Legion's time-travelling gimmicks work.

Honestly I just don't think Jon needs to be wholesale given his dad's relationship with the Legion instead of it being on his own terms in relation to Clark's time with the team.

I also don't think making them Jon's friends connects back to Clark in the same way.

But what does this accomplish beyond the idea that Clark could verbalize "yeah, I used to hang out with a version of them."? This would be text book lip service.

I don't think it would be lip service if they acknowledged Superman's history with the Legion and that connection, since they would be making that a big part of the mythos again and adding more depth to Clark's decision to let Jon go with them.

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah, I don't think you need to retell the stories for it to not be lip service, just the acknowledgment that the original Silver Age stories count. Maybe not verbatim, but in general, still happened. With the acknowledgment of that history you then still have those old printed tales that make it more than lip service, you have the tangible stories. I see it as more having to go out of your way to erase that. It takes far more effort to do something like this and nullify a classic aspect the Superman mythos than it is to just say offhand "all that old stuff? Still happened". And making the effort to tear something down just never makes any sense to me. It just reeks of trying to put your own stamp on something, and giving a character not even close to deserving another character's history.

I can't believe that to date Geoff Johns is the only guy around who ever actively tried to rectify a now thirty year old mistake. Ironically one of the writers who I think, despite perfectly good intentions, just never got the character that well. And I'm disappointingly surprised that with the good things I believe Bendis has done since his arrival, he is contributing to making that particular mistake even bigger. Of all the things to take the template of Secret Origin, a generally bad origin miniseries, and change. Pretty much the one good thing about it. Unbelievable.

[Vordan]

But what does this accomplish beyond the idea that Clark could verbalize "yeah, I used to hang out with a version of them."? This would be text book lip service.

Bendis himself has said that he's symbolically paying homage to the previous versions by setting this in the 32nd century. It doesn't mean there was another Legion before then, but it's almost like time and space are leaving those eras (the 30th and the 31st centuries) as quietly respected ground.

Gives Secret Origin one of its few positives back, the Legion being a part of Clark’s early career, for one. Let’s you keep stories like Superman and the Legion of Superheroes in canon for two. For three it doesn’t ask us to pretend those past Legions never existed and doesn’t outright contradict Doomsday Clock which Bendis insists is still canon. Saturn Girl there explicitly knows Clark and is the SG from the Johns run. Also I feel pretty confident that this is going to flop so might as well leave a loophole to bring the old Legion back once this crashes.

[Konja7]

Yeah, I don't think you need to retell the stories for it to not be lip service, just the acknowledgment that the original Silver Age stories count. Maybe not verbatim, but in general, still happened. With the acknowledgment of that history you then still have those old printed tales that make it more than lip service, you have the tangible stories. I see it as more having to go out of your way to erase that. It takes far more effort to do something like this and nullify a classic aspect the Superman mythos than it is to just say offhand "all that old stuff? Still happened". And making the effort to tear something down just never makes any sense to me. It just reeks of trying to put your own stamp on something, and giving a character not even close to deserving another character's history.

I can't believe that to date Geoff Johns is the only guy around who ever actively tried to rectify a now thirty year old mistake. And I'm disappointingly surprised that with the good things I believe Bendis has done since his arrival, he is contributing to making that particular mistake even bigger.

Are you surprised? This fits perfectly with Bendis style.

Maybe Bendis had not touched something that you really cared until now, but he altering things to leave his stamp is pretty much his style.

I do not even think Bendis cares much about continuity (unless it's for his story).

[Superlad93]

I just don't see why you can't have both to be honest. It seems like it would be simple for both Clark and Jon to have been in the Legion in their teen years with the way the Legion's time-travelling gimmicks work.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm sure the door is totally left open for Jon and the Legion to visit a younger Clark and make him a member in some respect. I think that'd be a nice thing moment. But I don't see it as a priority for the Legion and Jon if this thing is starting from scratch.

Had this been more of a reintroduction or continuation like in post-crisis, then I'd vote harder for the need for young Clark. But it's a straight up reboot, so I'm hard pressed to see the point in going out the way to add that if not *just* for Superman's benefit alone. I think he'll survive.

[Superlad93]

For three it doesn’t ask us to pretend those past Legions never existed and doesn’t outright contradict Doomsday Clock which Bendis insists is still canon. Saturn Girl there explicitly knows Clark and is the SG from the Johns run.

There's 2 more issue of Doomsday Clock left, SG says she's from the 30th century, Clark hasn't acknowledged if he does or doesn't know her or the Legion, and it's a story about continuity where continuity may not be the same after. Given the nature of the story she could literally be retconed out of existence by the end of the story or, what's more likely, she's actually the Saturn Girl of the silver and bronze age given a modern Clark's Legion would be from the 31st not 30th century.

Yeah, I don't think you need to retell the stories for it to not be lip service, just the acknowledgment that the original Silver Age stories count. Maybe not verbatim, but in general, still happened. With the acknowledgment of that history you then still have those old printed tales that make it more than lip service, you have the tangible stories. I see it as more having to go out of your way to erase that. It takes far more effort to do something like this and nullify a classic aspect the Superman mythos than it is to just say offhand "all that old stuff? Still happened". And making the effort to tear something down just never makes any sense to me. It just reeks of trying to put your own stamp on something, and giving a character not even close to deserving another character's history.

But that's not really going out of your way. It's legitimately just saying "hey, this is a new thing with no baggage. Jump in." And it's doing it for a property that's struggled like crazy to find an audience past its die-hards. It's an ip that's known to be nearly as impenetrable to get into as the X-Men, but with no where near the multimedia force behind it to sustain it. It's coming at prospective fans with 30-some-odd members and nearly just as many accompanying planets. It's also so far in the future. There's lot here to sell a new fan on. Putting up a clean rebooted jumping on point with no baggage seems appropriate and fair, I feel.

[Superlad93]

double post