Official : Bendis gets both books

[Kuwagaton]

if I don't like what happens there, that's the end of my support for DC Comics until DiDio is finally gone. I'm putting the full blame on this if it it's another tone-deaf take on the character. Bendis really can't be blamed for doing what he's allowed to do.

That's totally what I mean. Bendis is his own man, and for good or bad he's absolutely responsible for his own work. And if he wasn't, if all of these writers weren't, then none of them deserve credit for a job well done. All Star Superman was all Didio... does that sound right?

DiDio makes statements like this about Superman but it's all lip-service. He's made it clear through the years that he dislikes and/or doesn't understand the character. That's fine, but constantly changing the character so suit his preferences is the height of bad business. Imagine if you own a restaurant and everyone loves your pizza in particular. You decide to constantly tweak the recipe because you don't like it, and before you know it, no one's interested in that pizza anymore. DiDio's been doing the same to Superman since he took over.

I'd say it's like leaving a solid position in a different venue to manage a pizza restaurant and receiving steady business as the employees come and go and individual tastes vary, but earning criticism of people who haven't dined inside the restaurant over ordering delivery.

I don't think he dislikes Superman per say. He just has a very specific idea in mind of what Superman is, I.E. the one he grew up reading and has spent much of his early tenure as DC 's main guy trying to drag the DCU kicking and screaming back to the 70s which mucked things up so badly by the late 00's that blowing it all up and starting from scratch seemed like a viable option.

We've seen Johns institutesome very definite things from the movies and even work with Donner, but beyond that, Morrison specifically doing an homage, and Bendis mentioning Superman #400 I'm not sure we get to see creators go back to their fandom. Like you almost never look at Jurgens comics and say they remind you of the silver age.

In regards to the third hand stuff......I'd be surprised if working professionals spoke badly of Didio, or anyone else in a powerful management position. It's typically unwise to insult the person who signs your paychecks. Or could be signing a paycheck down the road, in the case of the freelancers and people who aren't employed at DC full-time (like Morrison).

I used him as an example because ven if he weren't set and busy between independent work and being an editor in chief at Heavy Metal, Marvel and the other major publishers would be lucky to have a Grant Morrison. That's one working relationship that really hasn't had a public correlation with leverage. For anyone else, it's still hard to accept that they're likely to mean the opposite when they have active praise.

And from everything I have ever seen, Didio actually seems like a good guy who really enjoys his job. He seems to genuinely care about the craft and the history and he always comes off as excited for whatever project he's marketing. I would happily sit down and have a beer with him and talk comics. And he's done some excellent things on the business end that have been a big help to the industry as a whole and DC in particular.

But when it comes to Clark, I don't have to look any further than the average level of quality to know that this is not a character Didio is in tune with. At the very least, his ideas about Superman and how to approach the character are vastly different from my own. And yes, I know that he isn't involved in the day-to-day work of script writing, editorial approval, etc. He's got a much bigger job than that. But ultimately, the blame still falls on him, because he is the guy who hired, or approved the hiring, of the editors and creators.

The comments about needing to update or modernize the character.....that *could* just be the hype engine doing what it's supposed to do. Except for the fact that we've seen what these comments actually usher in. And even if he has a point about needing to keep Clark contemporary (which, in part, he does) the way he goes about it (meaning the projects he approves of, or lets people he's hired approve of) isn't usually successful, and rarely is it actually contemporary. And often, these changes are just DC trying to rub some edgy Bat-ness all over the shield.

Every manager has their blind spots. Superman just seems to be (quite often) one of Didio's.

Makes sense. It's just that I would argue that Superman has been having difficulties for about 40 years.

Well... they kinda did, in a way. Look at the Batwoman team leaving a few years back over DC having a "no marriage" edict. And now, here's Superman with not just his wife back, but a child too. After hearing those kinds of things during the New52 (and Matt Idleson saying, in a Superman Homepage interview, something to the effect of Lois and Clark wouldn't be reuniting while he was at the helm - it wasn't that harsh but it left that general impression), Superman's part of Rebirth was honestly shocking. I remember Didio and Lee doing a lot of the "talking" (though not all) for New52, and Johns running point mainly on Rebirth (at least, early on, and especially in the Q&A. Speaking of the Q&A, I also kinda remember them throwing Didio some gentle shade during that, but I might be mis-remembering). Ascended actually words this much better than I do, so I've copied it below, but this gut feeling that Didio gives me has years of precedent. The way he talks about big shake-ups gives me flashbacks from the last handful of times he talked like that and the results just made things worse. Given some of the other responses on this thread, something in his messaging seems to be off for a portion of the fanbase, at the very least.

They could probably do well to step back, for sure.

[Ascended]

Kuwagaton, thanks for getting ahead of the curve and putting a stop to spoilers before they hit this thread.

That's totally what I mean. Bendis is his own man, and for good or bad he's absolutely responsible for his own work. And if he wasn't, if all of these writers weren't, then none of them deserve credit for a job well done. All Star Superman was all Didio... does that sound right?

Didio gets some credit for approving the project (or hiring the people who approved it, I'm not 100% sure how the process works for DC). Obviously Morrison and Quietly and the rest of the creative team gets the lion's share because they're the ones who made it happen, and they did an incredible job, but the editors and publishers *do* deserve some measure of credit for seeing the quality in the pitch and/or putting the right people into management/editorial positions.

Likewise, when something goes wrong, they also deserve *some* of the blame. No, they're not directly responsible for a writer handing in a crappy script. But they are partially responsible for that writer having the job in the first place.

Makes sense. It's just that I would argue that Superman has been having difficulties for about 40 years.

I don't know if I would say forty years. But definitely close to thirty. And that's long before Didio took over. I don't blame him for Superman going into a slow decline, but I do partially blame him for Superman still being in that decline. Didio has been in charge a while, certainly long enough to have pulled Clark out of this downward spiral. He hasn't. He hasn't hired the right people or approved the right stories to make that happen. I'm sure he's tried. I don't doubt for a second that he wants all of his books to succeed. But he's largely failed Superman. Doesn't make him a bad person, it just makes him the wrong person to be approving decisions about Superman. Nothing more.

[Ascended]

I've actually met him at a convention in Ontario - and he's very nice and very personable, even talked with my wife and I for a bit. I don't have any problem with him personally, even though it may seem like it from the way I talk about these things.

Absolutely. I have nothing against any of these people, even when I complain about their work. In fact, I figure most of them are probably pretty decent folk (except Berganza. F that guy). They're just people (and usually fans like us) trying to do a very difficult job where you never really know what will be successful. I spent some time as a professional artist and I can relate to the process a little bit (though this giant corporate stuff is outside my wheelhouse). But pointing out the areas where they've come up short isn't meant to be an attack on them, I'm just saying what we already know; they've failed to pull Clark out of this decline.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Another article/interview with Bendis and friends: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/b...el-bendis.html

Some excerpts...

“Even if Superman is not our best seller,” Mr. DiDio said, “the success and the positioning of the company works because of Superman. If Superman is working well, the entire line seems to be working well. If it’s not working well, then it seems like something’s out of whack. It’s intensely important for us to make sure that the Superman franchise is in good hands.”

Now, Mr. Bendis — beginning with a 12-page story in Action Comics No. 1000 — will take on the task that many have tried and failed at: Invigorating a character that many see as, frankly, boring, without betraying the core of who Superman is.

“When you strip everything away on Superman you’re basically stripping away all the ridiculous stuff and getting to the real truths,” Mr. Bendis said. “It’s about making your own family versus the family you’re born with, about finding out who you are versus where you were put.

“These are big, big issues that we deal with,” he continued. “Truth, justice and the American way. These things are under siege. This is the world we live in. These are not absolute things anymore. These are things worth fighting for.”

[DragonPiece]

Another article/interview with Bendis and friends: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/b...el-bendis.html

Some excerpts...

“Even if Superman is not our best seller,” Mr. DiDio said, “the success and the positioning of the company works because of Superman. If Superman is working well, the entire line seems to be working well. If it’s not working well, then it seems like something’s out of whack. It’s intensely important for us to make sure that the Superman franchise is in good hands.”

I'm guessing this is him saying because people had a negative perception of Superman during the new 52, even though comics were selling well, it was just a bad image on the company. I'd agree with that, anytime I'd try to defend the new 52 people would bring up problems with Superman. Even though Rebirth probably has several worse comics than new 52 currently, it still has a good image because of Superman and his family being back.

[rpmaluki]

I cannot disagree with Didio where Superman is concerned but I would love for his books to climb to the top nonetheless.

[manofsteel1979]

I'm guessing this is him saying because people had a negative perception of Superman during the new 52, even though comics were selling well, it was just a bad image on the company. I'd agree with that, anytime I'd try to defend the new 52 people would bring up problems with Superman. Even though Rebirth probably has several worse comics than new 52 currently, it still has a good image because of Superman and his family being back.

Fair or unfair, Superman is and always will be seen as the face of DC Comics. Yeah, Batman is more popular but I'd argue most people don't equate Batman as being synonymous with the DC brand, he kinda actually is sort of his own brand. But Superman? He is Mr.DC. New 52 Superman wasn't all that different in content from past incarnations of him, but many people stopped at the armored costume and the " edgy" young look and automatically deemed him a radical departure from the norm and thus blanket deemed the entirety of the New 52 a radical departure across the board, which was only partially true.

I think that's in part why they decided to bring back the Trunks and skew back to the classic suit. It's isn't just trying to send a particular message about Superman going back to basics and it's core, but largely about DC as a company firmly moving away and turning a page on the whole New 52/DC YOU/REBIRTH era. Yeah it's superficial nonsense perhaps, but comics are a visual medium.

I mean yeah they are putting Superman back in his classic uniform ( more or less) but his current status quo , A married father of the latest Superboy and adding in the rumored changes Bendis is implimenting ,we have a Superman who is quite a bit different from the Superman of the original ACTION #1 than New 52 Superman was, and yet most of the fanbase seem to be Okay, because on the surface, Superman looks the same as the guy they grew up with. New 52 Superman looked different but aside from pushing the Super Wonder ship hard,in every other aspect, he was essentially Bronze Age Superman with a few touches of Post Crisis Superman. Yet people to this day, many who didn't bother reading the actual Stories thought he was some edgelord SJW Batman type, Which he wasn't.

[DragonPiece]

Fair or unfair, Superman is and always will be seen as the face of DC Comics. Yeah, Batman is more popular but I'd argue most people don't equate Batman as being synonymous with the DC brand, he kinda actually is sort of his own brand. But Superman? He is Mr.DC. New 52 Superman wasn't all that different in content from past incarnations of him, but many people stopped at the armored costume and the " edgy" young look and automatically deemed him a radical departure from the norm and thus blanket deemed the entirety of the New 52 a radical departure across the board, which was only partially true.

I think that's in part why they decided to bring back the Trunks and skew back to the classic suit. It's isn't just trying to send a particular message about Superman going back to basics and it's core, but largely about DC as a company firmly moving away and turning a page on the whole New 52/DC YOU/REBIRTH era. Yeah it's superficial nonsense perhaps, but comics are a visual medium.

I mean yeah they are putting Superman back in his classic uniform ( more or less) but his current status quo , A married father of the latest Superboy and adding in the rumored changes Bendis is implimenting ,we have a Superman who is quite a bit different from the Superman of the original ACTION #1 than New 52 Superman was, and yet most of the fanbase seem to be Okay, because on the surface, Superman looks the same as the guy they grew up with. New 52 Superman looked different but aside from pushing the Super Wonder ship hard,in every other aspect, he was essentially Bronze Age Superman with a few touches of Post Crisis Superman. Yet people to this day, many who didn't bother reading the actual Stories thought he was some edgelord SJW Batman type, Which he wasn't.

You are spot on, people didn't look beyond the first issue of new 52 action comics when judging Superman during that era. And to add to your points, Didio even said part of the reason they were bringing the trunks back was because they knew Bendis was going to be doing some big changes, so they wanted to ease fans a bit by putting the classic costume on him.

[JAK]

We've seen Johns institutesome very definite things from the movies and even work with Donner, but beyond that, Morrison specifically doing an homage, and Bendis mentioning Superman #400 I'm not sure we get to see creators go back to their fandom. Like you almost never look at Jurgens comics and say they remind you of the silver age.

Yeah - I think for WB and possibly Didio, it's less about taking Superman back to where they remember him (like Johns tends to), but where they think he'll be popular. Usually that involved Batman somehow, but still.

Makes sense. It's just that I would argue that Superman has been having difficulties for about 40 years.

He has, overall - though the 90's were pretty good for Superman (and could have been even better if WB's could have found it's own back door exit.. If they would have let those creators do their thing instead of tie them to the "event" bandwagon, I think it might have lasted longer. Bogdanove said that DC really started pushing them for more events after that, that everything had to try and recapture DoS/RoS.

They could probably do well to step back, for sure.

I'd like to see that, and I'd like to see them be a bit more considerate when discussing a character that's the reason for their job. I think there are ways to say what they're saying, but in a better way. And no more edicts... that's a big one, too.

Kuwagaton, thanks for getting ahead of the curve and putting a stop to spoilers before they hit this thread.
Didio gets some credit for approving the project (or hiring the people who approved it, I'm not 100% sure how the process works for DC). Obviously Morrison and Quietly and the rest of the creative team gets the lion's share because they're the ones who made it happen, and they did an incredible job, but the editors and publishers *do* deserve some measure of credit for seeing the quality in the pitch and/or putting the right people into management/editorial positions.

Likewise, when something goes wrong, they also deserve *some* of the blame. No, they're not directly responsible for a writer handing in a crappy script. But they are partially responsible for that writer having the job in the first place.

Absolutely. I have nothing against any of these people, even when I complain about their work. In fact, I figure most of them are probably pretty decent folk (except Berganza. F that guy). They're just people (and usually fans like us) trying to do a very difficult job where you never really know what will be successful. I spent some time as a professional artist and I can relate to the process a little bit (though this giant corporate stuff is outside my wheelhouse). But pointing out the areas where they've come up short isn't meant to be an attack on them, I'm just saying what we already know; they've failed to pull Clark out of this decline.

I'd also say that certain decisions have exacerbated the problem. Superman had some huge opportunities in the 90s, and if they'd properly capitalized on them, it really would have helped. That's more of a WB thing than a DC thing. But when Didio came on-board, he was fully into the "event" mentality, but the direction Superman started going not long after that didn't help, either.

Fair or unfair, Superman is and always will be seen as the face of DC Comics. Yeah, Batman is more popular but I'd argue most people don't equate Batman as being synonymous with the DC brand, he kinda actually is sort of his own brand. But Superman? He is Mr.DC. New 52 Superman wasn't all that different in content from past incarnations of him, but many people stopped at the armored costume and the " edgy" young look and automatically deemed him a radical departure from the norm and thus blanket deemed the entirety of the New 52 a radical departure across the board, which was only partially true.

I think that's in part why they decided to bring back the Trunks and skew back to the classic suit. It's isn't just trying to send a particular message about Superman going back to basics and it's core, but largely about DC as a company firmly moving away and turning a page on the whole New 52/DC YOU/REBIRTH era. Yeah it's superficial nonsense perhaps, but comics are a visual medium.

I mean yeah they are putting Superman back in his classic uniform ( more or less) but his current status quo , A married father of the latest Superboy and adding in the rumored changes Bendis is implimenting ,we have a Superman who is quite a bit different from the Superman of the original ACTION #1 than New 52 Superman was, and yet most of the fanbase seem to be Okay, because on the surface, Superman looks the same as the guy they grew up with. New 52 Superman looked different but aside from pushing the Super Wonder ship hard,in every other aspect, he was essentially Bronze Age Superman with a few touches of Post Crisis Superman. Yet people to this day, many who didn't bother reading the actual Stories thought he was some edgelord SJW Batman type, Which he wasn't.

There's truth in this, but I think there's another component - one you've also talked about a lot. It's not just that people thought this is what the New52 Superman was going to be. It's what DC and WB spent money and time telling people this is what he'd be. It's ironic that one of the most coordinated moments of marketing for Superman was to push something that was so controversial. People believed them. I certainly did. And other than the first Action Comics run, their marketing tainted my experience. That's partially on me, sure, but also on them - their marketing worked, it just didn't get the response they intended (from me specifically, but also in general in the long run). Their mocking (yes really) of the previous Superman and costume while pushing this one told me that they had little respect for how he was, instead of what they wanted him to be. So that costume and iteration became the "lightning rod" symbol for that - and didn't let up (for me) until the character's death storyline.

Especially with comics being a visual medium, and (as people say) the order of importance is:

1. how you look
2. how you sound
3. what you say
(isn't THAT a messed up order of importance? lol)

This means that Superman returning to his more classic look is, exactly as you say, a symbol for DC "turning the page" to something more recognizable to people. And I think that visual is actually a good way to "counterpoint" the changes they're making with the character. Now, when those changes hit, then the $#!+ might hit the fan.

[DragonPiece]

Interesting twitter thread for the new Superman editor on what happens to Supergirl https://twitter.com/MartGray/status/984945222642819072

Kara will go through a "profound experience" in Man of Steel and "to be careful what we wish for" in regards to Supergirl needing a ongoing.

[RepHope]

Interesting twitter thread for the new Superman editor on what happens to Supergirl https://twitter.com/MartGray/status/984945222642819072

Kara will go through a "profound experience" in Man of Steel and "to be careful what we wish for" in regards to Supergirl needing a ongoing.

Interesting. Wonder who will end up writing her next series? Assuming she gets one and doesn't just become part of Bendis' stories that is.

[Sacred Knight]

Just hope the story doesn't put Kal and Kara at odds. They've had enough of that ever since she came back pre-FP. I'm not saying I need them devoid of any tension at any point in the story, just don't want anything huge and long-lasting. I'd rather for the most part they fight this threat together.

[Kuwagaton]

Kuwagaton, thanks for getting ahead of the curve and putting a stop to spoilers before they hit this thread.



Didio gets some credit for approving the project (or hiring the people who approved it, I'm not 100% sure how the process works for DC). Obviously Morrison and Quietly and the rest of the creative team gets the lion's share because they're the ones who made it happen, and they did an incredible job, but the editors and publishers *do* deserve some measure of credit for seeing the quality in the pitch and/or putting the right people into management/editorial positions.

Likewise, when something goes wrong, they also deserve *some* of the blame. No, they're not directly responsible for a writer handing in a crappy script. But they are partially responsible for that writer having the job in the first place.

Thank you. I will say that with very much retail experience, a terrible line of common thinking I see (another is "no wingman means you get more numbers," which misses the point of both wingmen and customer support) is that a trend of bad showings means bad employees. When really you have to look at who's behind it. That's so much of Berganza that aside from other things, I have to give him majority of feedback. Two of some stronger runs, Morrison and Johns, had different editors. He had this 90s thing going on from Kelly to Lobdell that ironically deviated from what Superman comics in the 90s were. The number of "Bad Superman" memes are disproportionately tilted to his 18 years versus the other 62, I think. Not that everyone else hanging around is scotfree.

I don't know if I would say forty years. But definitely close to thirty.

I'm only 30 now and didn't enter the comics fan scene until 2002, so I don't really know what's what for certain. I just go with the impression I have gotten from those who followed comics for a long time without being creators potentially touting their own work, like John Jackson Miller.

http://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/superman.html

“When you strip everything away on Superman you’re basically stripping away all the ridiculous stuff and getting to the real truths,” Mr. Bendis said. “It’s about making your own family versus the family you’re born with, about finding out who you are versus where you were put.

“These are big, big issues that we deal with,” he continued. “Truth, justice and the American way. These things are under siege. This is the world we live in. These are not absolute things anymore. These are things worth fighting for.”[/I]

On Twitter he distanced himself form the opening sentiment, which is nice. I think he's been speaking humbly and earnestly from the beginning and that's the key to Clark/Superman.

New 52 Superman looked different but aside from pushing the Super Wonder ship hard,in every other aspect, he was essentially Bronze Age Superman with a few touches of Post Crisis Superman. Yet people to this day, many who didn't bother reading the actual Stories thought he was some edgelord SJW Batman type, Which he wasn't.

ROFL, it was some of this and some of that. I remember a motorcycle in there, which... I mean at least let him go on foot if he isn't beyond lightspeed. He did some edgy stuff and although it's much more harsh than I would want to be to Lobdell, I think Tess Ate Chai Tea's blog had many good points about his run and I used it as a companion.

Yeah - I think for WB and possibly Didio, it's less about taking Superman back to where they remember him (like Johns tends to), but where they think he'll be popular. Usually that involved Batman somehow, but still.

Batman being in Superman's space would probably be how Didio remembers things. When you think of the most popular Superman before crisis, you'd have a Superman who would probably hold a sleepover in the bat cave.

He has, overall - though the 90's were pretty good for Superman (and could have been even better if WB's could have found it's own back door exit.. If they would have let those creators do their thing instead of tie them to the "event" bandwagon, I think it might have lasted longer. Bogdanove said that DC really started pushing them for more events after that, that everything had to try and recapture DoS/RoS.

Personally those forty years were the best of superhero comics, sometimes of the medium in general. The event thing was great to me because speaking of lasting, those were creators who could keep the dice rolling. Which excites me about Bendis. He doesn't stay drawing from that well of meta, so his stories don't dry up when he's said all he thinks (usually like 12-24 issues worth) and we frequently end up over 50 issues.

[RepHope]

Just hope the story doesn't put Kal and Kara at odds. They've had enough of that ever since she came back pre-FP. I'm not saying I need them devoid of any tension at any point in the story, just don't want anything huge and long-lasting. I'd rather for the most part they fight this threat together.

I doubt they'll fight each other. Any tension will probably come from them learning about what role Jor-El and this new character had in Krypton's destruction. We know they team up to pummel him together at least.

[Ascended]

Thank you. I will say that with very much retail experience, a terrible line of common thinking I see (another is "no wingman means you get more numbers," which misses the point of both wingmen and customer support) is that a trend of bad showings means bad employees. When really you have to look at who's behind it. That's so much of Berganza that aside from other things, I have to give him majority of feedback. Two of some stronger runs, Morrison and Johns, had different editors. He had this 90s thing going on from Kelly to Lobdell that ironically deviated from what Superman comics in the 90s were. The number of "Bad Superman" memes are disproportionately tilted to his 18 years versus the other 62, I think. Not that everyone else hanging around is scotfree.

A big chunk of the blame falls on the editor, yes. But who hired the editor? What manager allowed the editor to remain in his/her position during an extended period of falling sales and dwindling relevancy? I'm a big proponent of business accountability; if part of your product line is failing, and keeps failing, that stops being on the employees and becomes a problem with administration. Because either the administrators are making bad choices the employees can't balance out, or the administrators are allowing their employees to not do their jobs right.

Berganza....yeah, that dude gets a big heavy chunk of the blame, but the people who left him in charge? Especially in this particular case? Didio put Berganza in that office, as a punishment for being a sexual predator (in charge of the world's most famous superhero, instead of in jail. WTF?) Didio left Berganza in that office until public pressure forced his hand. It's not like he suddenly decided to do the right thing; if the sleazebags in the entertainment industries hadn't started dropping like flies, Berganza would still be in charge of Superman. So yeah, Didio gets plenty of blame for that one too.