Official : Bendis gets both books

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I don’t like the idea of Jon joining the legion. Those are his dad’s friends, it’s weird.

[Stardust]

That's fine. I understand you talking about it in terms of what it won't be, but if at all possible can we please move the conversation forward and talk about what it might/could be? Obviously part of your thoughts on I are rooted in what it's not, but if at all possible can we discuss more than just that

Sending a 17 year old former child soldier to a boarding school feels simply wrong.

I don’t like the idea of Jon joining the legion. Those are his dad’s friends, it’s weird.

And then there's that of course

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

If anyone should be the El family representative on the legion it should be Kara. She has history with them, they’re on her show, and hanging out with your cousins friends is way less awkward than being friends with with your dad’s friends........and I just realized Jon might be older than Kara now, goddamnit I’m sorry, but this is all just so stupid.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm of conflicting mind. I agree that the Legion should be more a Kal/Kara thing. They're the ones with the history. I didn't even much care for this when they subbed in Conner. But, on the other hand, if it meant a continuation of less Jon in the main Superman books, yet a place where his fans could have him star/co-star monthly, it'd be hard to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Jackalope89]

If anyone should be the El family representative on the legion it should be Kara. She has history with them, they’re on her show, and hanging out with your cousins friends is way less awkward than being friends with with your dad’s friends........and I just realized Jon might be older than Kara now, goddamnit I’m sorry, but this is all just so stupid.

I'm with you. Writing for only shock value has these kinds of stupid things happen. Hence why I won't be reading the Super line until Bendis is off the book and someone fixes his mess.

[manwhohaseverything]

That's fine. I understand you talking about it in terms of what it won't be, but if at all possible can we please move the conversation forward and talk about what it might/could be? Obviously part of your thoughts on I are rooted in what it's not, but if at all possible can we discuss more than just that

And as I said it would feel weird for a war veteran to call his mom and dad for making his life decisions. He has been alone all these years, he can fend for himself. If he is going to be with Legion. He is going to have friends there. He might find confidante,girlfriend etc.He can talk to them.
People hated the post crisis superman talking to his ma and pa. So the same would apply here.
Personally, I don't want Jon in the main books, atleast for a while. Main books are for Clark.Let Jon develop somewhere else on his own. What is the need for Clark's family moment with Jon? Why would Jon need that(being alone growing up) , sure he can talk to his mom or dad, but why would it be relevant to a Legion book.

It would be like New52 superman suddenly needing a talk with his parent. It would not fit the character.

If Clark's arc is him coming to an acceptance that his son has grown up without him, it would feel cheap to have Jon in the books at the beckoning call of his father, asking his advice, taking orders. Then what is the purpose of aging him up.

[Yoda]

The apparent premise of the next arc is Jon calling Clark for help. So the idea that he won't need further mentoring or guidance doesn't make sense. Particularly if he's at odds with Jor El as Bendis has implied, remember he said Jon comes back saying "Grandpa's crazy!"

And if the mainline Legion are all adults like Saturn Girl appears to be in Doomsday Clock it's possible there will be a younger contingent of the Legion. And if they are younger it's not that weird that Jon would go there for some mentoring or guidance with people who are closer to being his peers. He may end up being the Superboy who establishes it.

[Superlad93]

I don’t like the idea of Jon joining the legion. Those are his dad’s friends, it’s weird.

But, as I outlined before, Saturn Girl and her peers are acknowledged to be older than Jon even now as of Doomsday Clock, so it wouldn't be a case of them paling around with Jon. What's most likely to happen if he joins up is that he'll be peers with a younger group of new Legion members, and Saturn Girl, Lighting Lad, B5, and Cosmic Boy would act as mentors not dissimilar to how Scott, Jean, Bobby, and Hank became mentors to the newer X-Men.

And as I said it would feel weird for a war veteran to call his mom and dad for making his life decisions.

Huh? So just because he's now well traveled he not allowed to call his mom and dad from time to time to just catch up even ask advice? Didn't the solicitation say that Jon specially comes home because he needs his father's help?

So the same would apply here.

It wouldn't because people's specific issue with Clark talking to Ma and Pa (and I don't agree with it, mind you) was that he was a 20 to 30 something year old man "running" back to his parents everytime stuff got hard. But Jon is not 20 or 30. He's a teen, and it's already been acknowledged (via the solicit) that he's apparently willing to literally come home to his father when he's in trouble

Personally, I don't want Jon in the main books, atleast for a while. Main books are for Clark.Let Jon develop somewhere else on his own. What is the need for Clark's family moment with Jon? Why would Jon need that(being alone growing up) , sure he can talk to his mom or dad,

Jon showing up for a little weekend dinner or a few panels of him talking on some sort of "time phone" to his folks doesn't seem like it would hurt in either book.

but why would it be relevant to a Legion book.

A show of his character. Legion heroes have always been shown to have lives outside of the Legion. Jon's life would naturally include some form of acknowledgement of his parents from time to time.

It would be like New52 superman suddenly needing a talk with his parent. It would not fit the character.

New 52 Clark would've absouletly loved to talk to his parents every single day of his life. But he couldn't--again not because he didn't want to--but because they were dead. Jon's parents are alive and well. I don't see your parallel.

If Clark's arc is him coming to an acceptance that his son has grown up without him, it would feel cheap to have Jon in the books at the beckoning call of his father, asking his advice, taking orders. Then what is the purpose of aging him up.

I don't even think that's Clark's arc in the first place. I think his arc is learning about the young man his son is becoming, accepting that, and trying forge ahead with their relationship/strange "new normal." That in and of itself will be hard for him because of the nagging feeling of lost time, but he'll have to realize that his son isn't gone--he's right there in front of him, and apparently still needs his help.

Just in case you forgot the Superman issue 8 solicit.....

"The epic secrets of Superman continue to unfold! A few months in space with his paternal grandfather Jor-El changed Jon Kent forever. With Jon now seeking help from his father, the Man of Steel must learn about the war his son and father fought together and set right the wrongs his father may have unleashed on other worlds. See what changed Superboy in such radical ways as the Unity Saga continues."

The apparent premise of the next arc is Jon calling Clark for help. So the idea that he won't need further mentoring or guidance doesn't make sense. Particularly if he's at odds with Jor El as Bendis has implied, remember he said Jon comes back saying "Grandpa's crazy!"

And if the mainline Legion are all adults like Saturn Girl appears to be in Doomsday Clock it's possible there will be a younger contingent of the Legion. And if they are younger it's not that weird that Jon would go there for some mentoring or guidance with people who are closer to being his peers. He may end up being the Superboy who establishes it.

Yes, exactly. Thank you.

[manwhohaseverything]

The apparent premise of the next arc is Jon calling Clark for help. So the idea that he won't need further mentoring or guidance doesn't make sense. Particularly if he's at odds with Jor El as Bendis has implied, remember he said Jon comes back saying "Grandpa's crazy!"

And if the mainline Legion are all adults like Saturn Girl appears to be in Doomsday Clock it's possible there will be a younger contingent of the Legion. And if they are younger it's not that weird that Jon would go there for some mentoring or guidance with people who are closer to being his peers. He may end up being the Superboy who establishes it.

We don't know in what context Jon is calling Clark. Clark asks Bruce for help does not mean, he needs mentoring.
Come on, It would be cheap to have Clark go through a " oh! My son has grown up and doesn't need me anymore" arc, while keeping mentoring aspect. Clark needs to miss the little Jon for this arc to work. He needs to be sad at the loss. That is the point of the arc right drama.
On the flip side, JON can have friends his age or peers which would give a happiness vibe to him. the years of loneliness and lose of old friends like damian, Kathy etc who are still same age while he is not will give Jon sadness vibe. While becoming independent of his family. Jon might love them, but a war veteran would not need his mom and dad to show him the way.

It visceral to see Clark losing his son so soon,if it is done like this. Jon would have his loss as well, his childhood.

[Yoda]

We don't know in what context Jon is calling Clark. Clark asks Bruce for help does not mean, he needs mentoring.
Come on, It would be cheap to have Clark go through a " oh! My son has grown up and doesn't need me anymore" arc, while keeping mentoring aspect. Clark needs to miss the little Jon for this arc to work. He needs to be sad at the loss. That is the point of the arc right drama.
On the flip side, JON can have friends his age or peers which would give a happiness vibe to him. the years of loneliness and lose of old friends like damian, Kathy etc who are still same age while he is not will give Jon sadness vibe. While becoming independent of his family. Jon might love them, but a war veteran would not need his mom and dad to show him the way.

It visceral to see Clark losing his son so soon,if it is done like this. Jon would have his loss as well, his childhood.

We do know the general context though from the solicit Superlad93 posted he's asking for help. Bendis has said Jon comes back saying Jor El is nuts. So the idea that Jons coming back a fully cooked Superhero vet is at odds with what we know. Clark can be upset he's missed out on a chunk of Jon's childhood but still have a roll to play in Jon's development going forward. Particularly if it involves him having to fight against whatever guidance Jor El has instilled in the interim. There's plenty of dramatic tension to be had in that.

[Yoda]

Bendis has been adamant that Jon is coming back with a ton of story and he sees this as a story of father and son. So the idea that he aged Jon up to write him out of the book or eliminate his interaction is completely at odds with that.

[Superlad93]

Bendis has said Jon comes back saying Jor El is nuts. So the idea that Jons coming back a fully cooked Superhero vet is at odds with what we know. Clark can be upset he's missed out on a chunk of Jon's childhood but still have a roll to play in Jon's development going forward. Particularly if it involves him having to fight against whatever guidance Jor El has instilled in the interim. There's plenty of dramatic tension to be had in that.

Exactly. The drama is only amplified by the idea of Clark still having to occasionally guide Jon, because it only highlights the time he missed. At every moment he'd have to be playing catch up, and every time Jon says or does something new the knife turns a little bit more in Clark's heart.

It's literally the idea of "they grow up so fast" but made literal. Again, I don't have kids, but I and I'm sure everyone on here remembers/knows what it's like to be a teenager, and to have that moment where your parents either bring you something you used to like or take you somewhere you used to like or ask about a friend you stopped hanging out with years ago, and after you correct them they always say the same thing, "what? When did that happen?" And there's that bit of sadness in their eye as for the smallest of moments they didn't know you like the back of their hand. It seems like the story is an attempt to "bottle" that feeling.

Bendis has been adamant that Jon is coming back with a ton of story and he sees this as a story of father and son. So the idea that he aged Jon up to write him out of the book or eliminate his interaction is completely at odds with that.

That's exactly right.

I honestly have a feeling that some people are just sort of venting, and talking in extremes because they're pretty broken up about the situation, and I'm more than sympathetic towards that. Honestly, my first post was really just to lighten the mood and get some fun and hopeful speculation going while we wait for the real thing. I ultimately still hope we can do that.

[Yoda]

But, as I outlined before, Saturn Girl and her peers are acknowledged to be older than Jon even now as of Doomsday Clock, so it wouldn't be a case of them paling around with Jon. What's most likely to happen if he joins up is that he'll be peers with a younger group of new Legion members, and Saturn Girl, Lighting Lad, B5, and Cosmic Boy would act as mentors not dissimilar to how Scott, Jean, Bobby, and Hank became mentors to the newer X-Men.

Yes, exactly. Thank you.

I skipped over you post before coopting your theory on the older Legion, so my apologies! But that is exactly where I am with this right now as well. If the Unity Saga ends with Superman establishing some precursor to the United Planets as a result of whatever mess Jor El created with Jon, it seems like having Jon spend some time with a reestablished Legion in the future in some capacity would make a lot of sense. If the classic Legionnaires are all in their 20's with a contingent of younger Legionnaires as well, having a teenage Jon hang out with them to help sort out some of the conflict between Jor El and Clark's guidance works. Jon may feel alone if he is in fact significantly older than his old friends which could mirror Clark's feelings as a Superboy if that's back in as the Legion backstory, so Clark saying "this helped me maybe it will help you" makes a certain amount of sense.

If the Legion's relaunch is completely fresh, Jon may well end up being the Superboy they hang out with.

Timing wise this all makes a lot of sense as well, the Unity Saga will be wrapping up in June. Doomsday Clock in late July if it keeps its current schedule. Leviathan is going to be kicking off this summer as well, possibly even as a crossover between Superman and Action Comics. Jon could conceivably sit that out. Ready for a relaunched Legion next fall.

[Stardust]

I honestly have a feeling that some people are just sort of venting, and talking in extremes because they're pretty broken up about the situation,

Oh I am venting for sure, but talking extremes?
We try to explain why we are unhappy, but mostly get the reaction that we shouldn't be. So we explain some more which gets brushed away some more.

I'm more than sympathetic towards that.

You are?

Honestly, my first post was really just to lighten the mood and get some fun and hopeful speculation going while we wait for the real thing. I ultimately still hope we can do that.

Tell me one thing that is hopeful about Bendis setup.

[manwhohaseverything]

Huh? So just because he's now well traveled he not allowed to call his mom and dad from time to time to just catch up even ask advice? Didn't the solicitation say that Jon specially comes home because he needs his father's help?

I am not saying that,but there would need to be a distance and awkwardness in interaction.my mother died when i was six years old .my dad had left me with my father's sister to raise because,he could not handle it and was busy with his Job.I did not see my mother's family for,awhile(years to be exact).It was awkward as hell when i met them years later.I had grown up my cousin were weird,around me,my uncles were weird.All the moments, I had with mothers family had gone,I was different for them.They were unfamiliar to me.Same with my dad.I tried to avoid them for awhile after i met them first in year, to get out of the awkward situation.It took years to mend that gap.There was a distance,still there is.It would not feel realistic,if Jon and Clark behaved like nothing happened.

It wouldn't because people's specific issue with Clark talking to Ma and Pa (and I don't agree with it, mind you) was that he was a 20 to 30 something year old man "running" back to his parents everytime stuff got hard. But Jon is not 20 or 30. He's a teen, and it's already been acknowledged (via the solicit) that he's apparently willing to literally come home to his father when he's in trouble

Teens are normaly very independent,or atleast most of them are.They would rather talk to friends,than parents.And this guy has seems to have fought wars.So he will be more so.

Jon showing up for a little weekend dinner or a few panels of him talking on some sort of "time phone" to his folks doesn't seem like it would hurt in either book.



A show of his character. Legion heroes have always been shown to have lives outside of the Legion. Jon's life would naturally include some form of acknowledgement of his parents from time to time.

That would be cool.But not suddenly right after his return.

New 52 Clark would've absouletly loved to talk to his parents every single day of his life. But he couldn't--again not because he didn't want to--but because they were dead. Jon's parents are alive and well. I don't see your parallel.

Wanting and needing are two different things.It is what i liked about New 52 superman.He might have wanted it,he did not need it.Just like a returned Jon would not need guidance of his parents.He might want it,especially during tough times but would have learned to cope with it especially in his loneliness in space.

I don't even think that's Clark's arc in the first place. I think his arc is learning about the young man his son is becoming, accepting that, and trying forge ahead with their relationship/strange "new normal." That in and of itself will be hard for him because of the nagging feeling of lost time, but he'll have to realize that his son isn't gone--he's right there in front of him, and apparently still needs his help.

It might be true Clark can see his underneath the change but,there Dynamics needs to change.Jon is not a kid.If he has fought a war,essentially alone in space.He would not need a mentor,He will need a friend.Portrayal of Coping with this "New normal" needs to be atleast in realistic.Jon needing a mentor after his experience in space would be cheap.Sadness needs to accentuated.The kid just lost his childhood in space and war with jerk of a grandfather.Clark will need understand Jon does not need a mentor anymore.As i said,Jon might be asking Clark's help as a friend and an equal,like Kara does.Like Clark does with Bruce.Maybe something like Clark's interaction with Wally in rebirth.Clark wasn't Wally's mentor,there but Clark was still giving advice.