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  1. #5476
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    I disagree that teens cannot be in awe of their parents. They just don't express it like a child would due to their own growth as individuals. We honestly can't expect Jon to remain a child forever. Whether it is Bendis or some other writer down the road, Jon would have needed to grow up. And as painful as that it, the simple truth is it couldn't happen gradually over a natural course of time, a time jump of sorts would be necessitated especially when you consider Lois. She doesn't have Clark's impressive non aging genes. I haven't liked Jon's aging but my mourning period is practically over because I'm looking towards the advancing of the Superfamily stories. I say this after a good solid 2 to 3 years of the stories with little Jon. We have survived several status quo changes with Superman, from the triangle, to his death, marriage and family. This is merely another one and the best we can hope is that Bendis tells stories that will stand the test of time as I am hoping this Unity Saga will eventually become. Jon's age could be one of the many precursors to progress and I cannot argue with that, not when I want Superman to survive another 80 years without circling the same mountain non stop.

  2. #5477
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    On the other hand, the problem for me is I've never, ever felt a sense of wonder and awe FOR Jon. Others have, and hey, respect. But the convoluted method of his very creation has led to nothing but apathy from me toward him. And in that vein fast-forwarding to today, its also supplied the reason why I'm not bothered much by the convoluted process of making him a teen and could even go as far as to give me any thread of hope to finding anything to like about him at all. Maybe not but its possible. The entire character is based on completely inorganic narrative story-telling and always has been, though. So I can't possible see this latest move as jarring to the Superman mythos on those grounds.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-28-2019 at 08:21 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  3. #5478
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am more worried that the focus will be entirely on the father. The son will be just a one note character and plot device. His jon is like rogal zarr generic as they come.
    He said a lot of things like how was not going reboot the family. And how he is going to continue from where tomasi and jurgens have left of. For jon, he hasn't entirely honest. Jurgens was forshadowing and setting up lor zod - jon kent rivalry. That seems to have been left underwater. Tomasi was building up a cast for jon which is also being flushed and kathy was really cool character.

    If you are stripping support cast, rivalry... Etc of the character. His history is being ignored, then. The character is essentially a reboot. For people saying jon is just support cast, him being developed is not that important. Well you are wrong it does matter to people that like jon. And well jurgens himself has said he considers jon and lois to be more than superman supporting cast.

    All this is done to make him generic. So i wouldn't be surprised he would be used as a plot device for Clark to punch some rocks and be tossed aside after. The only other book jon seems to be in is ending. Might not return. I could see them using him like a glorified cameo and discard/erase him afterwards. Which is a waste.

    Kids depend on fathers and admire them largely. Teens largely avoid parents like a plague and think they are embarrassing. Jon could be an exception, but still won't be the same. Kids have a sense of awe towards their parents. Teens don't. Just look at this:



    Do you honestly believe we can create a sense of wonder and awe from teen jon?for me i don't think so.
    Superman being a dad and showing the ropes was cool. Jon is close to an adult now. Clark showing the ropes to jon now will not have the same feeling or meaning. Hey! Atleast in mangas i can have naruto and sasuke being dads.

    Frankly, they should not have done the superdad and jon concept in the first place. If Jon was going to reinvented too soon without an effort, thought, need, reason and later on to be left in editorial oblivion. They should have just had new52 clark just get together with new52 lois. Diana could have broken up with clark like in the animated movies. Creation of jon was stupid if they weren't willing to stick with it and the character.If they wanted Clark to punch something and be rough around the edges. New52 guy was the perfect setting. Why jump through the hoops for superdad?

    I don't care for shipping/relationship nonsense. I like jon because it didn't have those things. Now i am stuck with a jon that is old enough for that shit. I would prefer kid jon with goofy adventures with his pals. With some progression and a lot of heart. That is if he is given panel time. And superman to be the cool, laid back, over protective dad.

    Unless there is something significant, different, cool and important that is happening with character. This change is nothing but a waste. It wouldn't matter what bendis says. And How he has tried to play it safe by keeping his personality, only to make him feel generic. The character has been soft rebooted.

    Clark(the disguise) is one of the reasons i like the character. It being just used as a prop to get shitted on. So that almighty superman can have a great life is not something i would look forward to.
    I agree. I guess Kathy is probably get retconned under Bendis.

  4. #5479
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Why would Kathy be retconned? Not using her does not equal retconning. And he very well might not use her. But subsequent writers choosing not to use characters like that is wholly commonplace. Doesn't mean they're retconned out of existence unless a move is made to deliberately do just that.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  5. #5480
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    She may actually play a role if Jon is trying to assimilate back on Earth. He's been around aliens for seven years, her and the aliens in Hamilton may actually be a place Jon now feels even more comfortable. I wouldn't assume she's being forgotten yet.

  6. #5481
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Bendis retconned why Jon was rejected by the Teen Titans. In Man Of Steel #6, Jon says he was rejected because there's something wrong with him. Which isn't the case.



    Plus Jon couldn't join the Teen Titans at the time Man of Steel came out. The team was already broken up by then.

    Considering that Bendis' storyline looks like it's going the way of the United Planets. I feel like he's going forget about Kathy.
    Last edited by MeGrimlock420; 02-28-2019 at 10:15 AM.

  7. #5482
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am more worried that the focus will be entirely on the father. The son will be just a one note character and plot device. His jon is like rogal zarr generic as they come.
    He said a lot of things like how was not going reboot the family. And how he is going to continue from where tomasi and jurgens have left of. For jon, he hasn't entirely honest. Jurgens was forshadowing and setting up lor zod - jon kent rivalry. That seems to have been left underwater. Tomasi was building up a cast for jon which is also being flushed and kathy was really cool character.

    If you are stripping support cast, rivalry... Etc of the character. His history is being ignored, then. The character is essentially a reboot. For people saying jon is just support cast, him being developed is not that important. Well you are wrong it does matter to people that like jon. And well jurgens himself has said he considers jon and lois to be more than superman supporting cast.
    I mean, I guess. But the books were always going to focus on Superman more than Jon. And Lor Zod appeared in like two issues or one arc? And still exists and has been used by Bendis. You don't think they can still use him as an antagonist against Jon? He's a Zod. He can still appear, there's nothing stopping that.

    All this is done to make him generic. So i wouldn't be surprised he would be used as a plot device for Clark to punch some rocks and be tossed aside after. The only other book jon seems to be in is ending. Might not return. I could see them using him like a glorified cameo and discard/erase him afterwards. Which is a waste.
    I disagree. Nothing other than Jon's age is "generic" about him so far. So the complaints on his genericness are based on pretty superficial characteristics. He's still Superman and Lois' son. He still seems to have the same personality, being a good solid kid, that wants to live up to the impressive examples of his father and mother. These claims of "genericness" are overblown or at best premature. And Bendis writes teen characters really really well, so this fear that Jon is going to become one note or generic seems overblown. What we've seen so far has been far from either of those. He's appeared in two issues so far, and there's been nothing generic or one note about him. I get you don't like it, but these complaints aren't being played out in the actual books.

    And Jon's staring in new Super Son's book that's hitting the bookstore market. If that is a success that's where young Jon will be found and can still thrive. There's nothing stopping another Super Son's book either.

    Kids depend on fathers and admire them largely. Teens largely avoid parents like a plague and think they are embarrassing. Jon could be an exception, but still won't be the same. Kids have a sense of awe towards their parents. Teens don't. Just look at this:
    Do you honestly believe we can create a sense of wonder and awe from teen jon?for me i don't think so.
    Superman being a dad and showing the ropes was cool. Jon is close to an adult now. Clark showing the ropes to jon now will not have the same feeling or meaning. Hey! Atleast in mangas i can have naruto and sasuke being dads.
    You ironically are describing a trope of a teenage character. Which is as generic as they come. There's nothing that's been shown that Jon will fit any of those tropes so far. So yes, I think he will be the exception. Jon's sense of awe may be lessened, but that awe children have for their parents is based on basically not seeing their parents as real people who have flaws, their own struggles, and doubts, etc. So Jon is now going to be able to relate to his father on a level that a child can't. He's going to see his father differently, yes, but the idea that he won't still look up to Superman, or feel stress about living up to Superman's example is not likely. There is plenty to mine from this new dynamic and basically Bendis has to reestablish how the family relates to each other, it's allowing him to build that out in a way.

    Frankly, they should not have done the superdad and jon concept in the first place. If Jon was going to reinvented too soon without an effort, thought, need, reason and later on to be left in editorial oblivion. They should have just had new52 clark just get together with new52 lois. Diana could have broken up with clark like in the animated movies. Creation of jon was stupid if they weren't willing to stick with it and the character.If they wanted Clark to punch something and be rough around the edges. New52 guy was the perfect setting. Why jump through the hoops for superdad?
    I don't disagree with you on this point. I saw Jon as basically adding an expiration date to the Superman status quo of the Superfamily from the beginning. That Bendis seems intent on not just going for a reset and building off of it actually makes me think this is going to stick around for a bit. Its one of the reasons I think all this change ultimately may be good for the family's status. They are working to keep it going, even if its a little differently.

    Otherwise, we'd probably get Lobell or Robinson or some other editorial yes-man to kill Jon and cause some stupid drama in the family.

    I don't care for shipping/relationship nonsense. I like jon because it didn't have those things. Now i am stuck with a jon that is old enough for that shit. I would prefer kid jon with goofy adventures with his pals. With some progression and a lot of heart. That is if he is given panel time. And superman to be the cool, laid back, over protective dad.

    Unless there is something significant, different, cool and important that is happening with character. This change is nothing but a waste. It wouldn't matter what bendis says. And How he has tried to play it safe by keeping his personality, only to make him feel generic. The character has been soft rebooted.
    I get it. I really do. I don't agree with you, particularly on the generic aspect. But I get not liking a current direction. Been there. Maybe check out the Super Sons DC Zoom book. It looks to have young Jon and Damian.

    Clark(the disguise) is one of the reasons i like the character. It being just used as a prop to get shitted on. So that almighty superman can have a great life is not something i would look forward to.
    I'm hopeful this won't be the way they go with this, but if it is. I'll probably be back here complaining with you. I don't really expect them to turn Clark into a complete loser and have Lois have cheated on him and had him raise someone else's kid for a decade. I'm thinking the stepfather angle is the most likely outcome. And I can live with that if it's handled well.
    Last edited by Yoda; 02-28-2019 at 10:22 AM.

  8. #5483
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeGrimlock420 View Post
    Bendis retconned why Jon was rejected by the Teen Titans. In Man Of Steel #6, Jon says he was rejected because there's something wrong with him. Which isn't the case.



    Plus Jon couldn't join the Teen Titans at the time Man of Steel came out. The team was already broken up by then.

    Considering that Bendis' storyline looks like it's going the way of the United Planets. I feel like he's going forget about Kathy.
    I consider that more an addition. That's Jon's mental perception, even if it isn't accurate. Its the emotion he felt coming out of the situation. Not unlike how if you miss out on a job/are laid off, while the reasonings can be sound you may come out of it with a depressing feeling of there's something wrong with you, that you're not good enough. Now, was that the intention when the issue was written, that it would effect Jon like this? Probably not. He's disappointed as you can clearly see in the panels but it wasn't a long term thing at the time. Bendis added that. But that's all it is, an addition, more of a revelation, not a drastic retcon totally out of character and substance of the story.

    I think retcon is a term that's being thrown around a bit too liberally, especially when it comes to Bendis.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-28-2019 at 10:24 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  9. #5484
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I consider that more an addition. That's Jon's mental perception, even if it isn't accurate. Its the emotion he felt coming out of the situation. Not unlike how if you miss out on a job/are laid off, while the reasonings can be sound you may come out of it with a depressing feeling of there's something wrong with you, that you're not good enough. Now, was that the intention when the issue was written, that it would effect Jon like this? Probably not. He's disappointed as you can clearly see in the panels but it wasn't a long term thing at the time. Bendis added that. But that's all it is, an addition, more of a revelation, not a drastic retcon totally out of character and substance of the story.

    I think retcon is a term that's being thrown around a bit too liberally, especially when it comes to Bendis.
    I was about to say this as well. Another analogy is the ole' "It's not you, it's me" breakup line.

    It's a 11 year old internalizing a rejection. That's not a retcon and is actually a pretty good bit of character work. That Jon would internalize that and be concerned about an alt-future version of himself and not just shake it off like Clark said is pretty solid IMHO.

  10. #5485
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    The “kid Jon was never going to last long” argument doesn’t work when you look at how long they kept Damian as a kid. And only aged him up to 13 rather than this jump the shark nonsense.

  11. #5486
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    The “kid Jon was never going to last long” argument doesn’t work when you look at how long they kept Damian as a kid. And only aged him up to 13 rather than this jump the shark nonsense.
    Yeah, but Batman with a young Robin isn't a big change. Superman with a family is. And the go to excuse for the Superman books not selling is that he has things to easy, the marriage, or he's too much of a boy scout so you can't tell the type of stories they "need" to tell to make him interesting. That has never been the case with Damian. With Damian it was just that some readers and writers prefer a different teenage sidekick.

  12. #5487
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Yeah, but Batman with a young Robin isn't a big change. Superman with a family is. And the go to excuse for the Superman books not selling is that he has things to easy, the marriage, or he's too much of a boy scout so you can't tell the type of stories they "need" to tell to make him interesting. That has never been the case with Damian. With Damian it was just that some readers and writers prefer a different teenage sidekick.
    Even if I believed that, which I don’t, what Bendis did changes none of that, since Clark still has a family. They have drama now, but they had plenty of drama before he came onto the books. Only difference is Jon’s character is largely redundant when we already have Conner.

  13. #5488
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Even if I believed that, which I don’t, what Bendis did changes none of that, since Clark still has a family. They have drama now, but they had plenty of drama before he came onto the books. Only difference is Jon’s character is largely redundant when we already have Conner.
    Because Bendis came up with a way to shift the dynamic but retain the core family relationships.

    And Conner isn't Superman's son and has never been used as that. Again, it's only superficially that they are similar. Actual roles are pretty divergent.

    There's also 4 past and present Robins running around. 2 Spider-Men. And a movie with 5 Spider-People was a massive hit. So these complaints or fears of redundancy are pretty overblown.

  14. #5489
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    Action#1009 by Francis Manapul


  15. #5490
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    I’d say what separates them now is what is superficial. Their origins are different and I guess Clark probably loves his son more than he loves his clone.....but now they are pretty much in the same niche as dc’s teenage Superman. You use the Robin example but I think that’s an example of why this won’t work long term. Before this current era Jason Todd, Damian Wayne and Dick Grayson all co-existed because they filled different niches. Dick was the golden boy, Jason the anti-hero and Damian was the current Robin. While Tim was the redundant one, nobody knew what to do with. Which is probably going to be what eventually happens here. Having different personalities and relationship with Clark is only going to get Jon and Kon so far as far as co-existing when they will pretty much be sharing the same niche.

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