Official : Bendis gets both books

[Superlad93]

Know what I really dig about this era? The sense of grandeur, and the fact that every character has some sort of autonomous story unique to them.

Like in terms of everyone's stories? Lois is working on her secret book and hashing things out with her dad. Jimmy has been interdependently investigating underground cults. Perry is dealing with keeping his paper afloat, a new boss, and wrestling with his feeling about Lois leaving. Jon has had nearly seven years of adventure out in space and other dimensions, and wants to find his grandfather now. Clark is dealing with and investigating criminal organization, wrestling with his feeling about his lost time with his son, dealing with the mystery of Zaar and Zod, and wrestling with his feelings towards his dad. Hell, even Sam Lane is now wrestling with what his daughter said to him, his feeling about Superman and his grandson, and dealing with his organization being under attack. Ms Goode is also quite autonomous and a character in her own right. She's clearly ambitious and clever.

Their plots intermingle at stages, but they are all fairly autonomous from one another, and create this living breathing tapestry of a world. It's reminiscent of the triangle era in how it gives genuine stakes and story to each character, but it's more focused. There's no "what's Lucy and Ron's home life like?" here. Superman also doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

And in terms of grandeur, there's this sense of enhanced gravity to and scale to what each character is doing, especially Lois, Clark, Superman, and Jon, but it doesn't stop with them. With Perry, he's dealing with a new boss that bought the paper, yes, but said boss is also a mafia boss-lady. Jimmy's been working himself to the bone on a story, but that story also leads to secret spy organizations being taken out. Jon's is maybe my favorite in the sense that his current state is almost operatic in feel. Basically a young prince who got lost and had to find his way home across space and dimensions.

There's just a level of density and scale to not just the Clark and his family's life, but the lives of the people around them, and the whole world.

[Yoda]

I’d say what separates them now is what is superficial. Their origins are different and I guess Clark probably loves his son more than he loves his clone.....but now they are pretty much in the same niche as dc’s teenage Superman. You use the Robin example but I think that’s an example of why this won’t work long term. Before this current era Jason Todd, Damian Wayne and Dick Grayson all co-existed because they filled different niches. Dick was the golden boy, Jason the anti-hero and Damian was the current Robin. While Tim was the redundant one, nobody knew what to do with. Which is probably going to be what eventually happens here. Having different personalities and relationship with Clark is only going to get Jon and Kon so far as far as co-existing when they will pretty much be sharing the same niche.

That's not true at all. Conner has never occupied a major role in the Superman books like Jon has and appears to continue. Clark has never had any type of parent relationship with Conner, he was barely a mentor. At most he shipped him off to Ma Kent so he'd be a brother. There is absolutely nothing except superficial similarities. Their roles in stories and relationship to Superman are completely different. If anything, the Robins past and present are far more similar in their roles and history with Batman than Jon and Conner could ever be. They aren't going to occupy the same niche at all.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

That's not true at all. Conner has never occupied a major role in the Superman books like Jon has and appears to continue. Clark has never had any type of parent relationship with Conner, he was barely a mentor. At most he shipped him off to Ma Kent so he'd be a brother. There is absolutely nothing except superficial similarities. Their roles in stories and relationship to Superman are completely different. If anything, the Robins past and present are far more similar in their roles and history with Batman than Jon and Conner could ever be. They aren't going to occupy the same niche at all.

All due respect but read my comment, I very much acknowledged that their relationships with Clark is different. My point was that only matters so much when their overall niche in the dcu is the same. There’s too much overlap now. There is now very little you can do with one that you can’t do with the other. And as a consequence they are both less special. And again, with all due respect your Robin comparison doesn’t really work.

[Superlad93]

I’d say what separates them now is what is superficial. Their origins are different and I guess Clark probably loves his son more than he loves his clone.....but now they are pretty much in the same niche as dc’s teenage Superman. You use the Robin example but I think that’s an example of why this won’t work long term. Before this current era Jason Todd, Damian Wayne and Dick Grayson all co-existed because they filled different niches. Dick was the golden boy, Jason the anti-hero and Damian was the current Robin. While Tim was the redundant one, nobody knew what to do with. Which is probably going to be what eventually happens here. Having different personalities and relationship with Clark is only going to get Jon and Kon so far as far as co-existing when they will pretty much be sharing the same niche.

I think you're splitting hairs to facilitate a flawed argument. In reality all the Robins are teenage to adult handsome, able-bodied, black haired white guys that emulate Batman's motif, skill, and tactics in some way. What defines and differentiates them all as characters are their origins (and that's with 3 of the 4 being orphans that Bruce has taken in), interpersonal relationships, personalities, costumes, and names. Without those diverging factors they are 4 identical, handsome, able-bodied, black haired white guys that emulate Batman's motif, skills, and tactics.

So, I find it strange to see an argument that straight-faced and unironically says that Superman's son and Superman's half Lex clone are too similar when we've had less than 3 issues to understand the former's personality and interpersonal relationship dynamics. And we've had exactly dozen words out of the mouth of the latter. But, we had the very least know that their origins, costumes, and, as hinted by Bendis, their names will be different. Logic would only dictate that their interpersonal relationship dynamics and personalities would also be different.

The similarities for Jon and Conner are about as superficial as the Robins if not more so.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I think you're splitting hairs to facilitate a flawed argument. In reality all the Robins are teenage to adult handsome, able-bodied, black haired white guys that emulate Batman's motif, skill, and tactics in some way. What defines and differentiates them all as characters are their origins (and that's with 3 of the 4 being orphans that Bruce has taken in), interpersonal relationships, personalities, costumes, and names. Without those diverging factors they are 4 identical, handsome, able-bodied, black haired white guys that emulate Batman's motif, skills, and tactics.

So, I find it strange to see an argument that straight-faced and unironically says that Superman's son and Superman's half Lex clone are too similar when we've had less than 3 issues to understand the former's personality and interpersonal relationship dynamics. And we've had exactly dozen words out of the mouth of the latter. But, we had the very least know that their origins, costumes, and, as hinted by Bendis, their names will be different. Logic would only dictate that their interpersonal relationship dynamics and personalities would also be different.

The similarities for Jon and Conner are about as superficial as the Robins if not more so.

I said there WAS a redundancy problem with the Robins, particularly with Tim, at least until his recent push to make him Robin again. Hence why that’s not a good counter argument. And I can easily see that occurring here once we reach a “new normal.”

[Yoda]

All due respect but read my comment, I very much acknowledged that their relationships with Clark is different. My point was that only matters so much when their overall niche in the dcu is the same. There’s too much overlap now. There is now very little you can do with one that you can’t do with the other. And as a consequence they are both less special. And again, with all due respect your Robin comparison doesn’t really work.

The comparison between Jon and Conner is based on powers, ages, and code names. Wholly superficial traits. They can't tell stories of Superman's son with Conner because he's not Superman's son and has never been treated as such. That relationship alone drastically separates the types of stories you can tell with the two characters. He's also not Lois Lane's son or Sam Lane's grandson. He's not Jor El's grandson. Those elements are all more important for storytelling niches than powers or code names. The relationship to Clark and Lois is what Jon's whole existence has always turned on, not his being a 10 year old. Clark has never thought of Conner as his child and he's never occupied that role in the Superman books. It's a completely different niche.

The Robins all have the same "powers," same relationship to Batman, and same niche. They are all urban vigilantes. They have different code names (now), teams, cities, and the contours of that relationship with Batman are tweaked but all come from the same basic outline. The only thing separating them are the specifics of their relationship to Batman. How does that not work as a comparison?

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

The comparison between Jon and Conner is based on powers, ages, and code names. Wholly superficial traits. They can't tell stories of Superman's son with Conner because he's not Superman's son and has never been treated as such. That relationship alone drastically separates the types of stories you can tell with the two characters. He's also not Lois Lane's son or Sam Lane's grandson. He's not Jor El's grandson. Those elements are all more important for storytelling niches than powers or code names. The relationship to Clark and Lois is what Jon's whole existence has always turned on, not his being a 10 year old. Clark has never thought of Conner as his child and he's never occupied that role in the Superman books. It's a completely different niche.

The Robins all have the same "powers," same relationship to Batman, and same niche. They are all urban vigilantes. They have different code names (now), teams, cities, and the contours of that relationship with Batman are tweaked but all come from the same basic outline. The only thing separating them are the specifics of their relationship to Batman. How does that not work as a comparison?

It doesn’t work as comparison (at least not one that benefits your argument), because as I mentioned there IS a redundancy problem with the Robins, with Tim being the odd man out until maybe recently. Just as there is a redundancy issue with Wally and Barry. Making them more and more similar with age might seem superficial to you. Just as the similarities between Wally and Barry might seem superficial. We all know how that turned out.

[Superlad93]

I said there WAS a redundancy problem with the Robins, particularly with Tim, at least until his recent push to make him Robin again. Hence why that’s not a good counter argument. And I can easily see that occurring here once we reach a “new normal.”

How? Pleas, explain it to me again, or highlight your points in more detail because there's a whole Robin and Batman fanbase that would strongly disagree with you and find your critiques myopic and generally narrow minded.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

How? Pleas, explain it to me again, or highlight your points in more detail because there's a whole Robin and Batman fanbase that would strongly disagree with you and find your critiques myopic and generally narrow minded.

That Tim was the odd man out for a long period of time? I don’t think that is an uncommon or controversial stance at all. In fact probably the general consensus. And to be frank, kinda self explanatory but ok. Dick became Nightwing, the golden boy of the family, Red Hood the anti hero, Damian obviously the current Robin..... While Tim was just sort of there. They tried to make him the Robin of the teen titans while Damian was Batmsn’s partner. But that didn’t last as Damian soon had that as well. So really there really wasn’t an easy answer with what to do with him. The fact that they resorted to making him Robin again says a lot about the failure to make him relevant in a post-Damian world. For the record I like all the Robins.

[jason white reborn]

That Tim was the odd man out for a long period of time? I don’t think that is an uncommon or controversial stance at all. And to be frank, kinda self explanatory but ok. Dick became Nightwing, the golden boy of the family, Red Hood the anti hero, Damian obviously the current Robin..... While Tim was just sort of there. They tried to make him the Robin of the teen titans while Damian was Batmsn’s partner. But that didn’t last as Damian soon had that as well. So really there really wasn’t an easy answer with what to do with him. The fact that they resorted to making him Robin again says a lot about the failure to make him relevant in a post-Damian world. For the record I like all the Robins.

and bendis knows this....and he also pretty much signaled it with his obvious preference of connor over Jon. He destroyed the fanbase of jon, no one is gonna read his books even if super sons comes back. Everything bendis done was to cause Jon to become daken and tim....disposable characters that no one could fix(or wants to fix because of bendis absolute power over dc comics) and no one wants to use.

[Miles To Go]

and bendis knows this....and he also pretty much signaled it with his obvious preference of connor over Jon. He destroyed the fanbase of jon, no one is gonna read his books even if super sons comes back. Everything bendis done was to cause Jon to become daken and tim....disposable characters that no one could fix(or wants to fix because of bendis absolute power over dc comics) and no one wants to use.

I'm quite convinced this is how you see a day at DC's offices being spent

[Superlad93]

That Tim was the odd man out for a long period of time? I don’t think that is an uncommon or controversial stance at all. In fact probably the general consensus. And to be frank, kinda self explanatory but ok. Dick became Nightwing, the golden boy of the family, Red Hood the anti hero, Damian obviously the current Robin..... While Tim was just sort of there. They tried to make him the Robin of the teen titans while Damian was Batmsn’s partner. But that didn’t last as Damian soon had that as well. So really there really wasn’t an easy answer with what to do with him. The fact that they resorted to making him Robin again says a lot about the failure to make him relevant in a post-Damian world. For the record I like all the Robins.

Gotcha. That's what I thought.

My argument still stands. Dick and Jason are both black haired 20 something year old orphans adopted by Bruce and trained as Robin with a similar skill set and motif to Batman. What makes them distinct is that one is named Dick, goes by Nighwing, has a distinct personality, is close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume, and the other is named Jason, goes by Redhood, has a distinct personality, is not close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume.

Apply the same test to Jon and Conner: Ones name is Jon, likely won't go by Superboy, has a distinct personality, is Clark's son, and wears a distinct costume, and the other's name is Conner, may go by Superboy, is a clone of Clark and Lex, and wears a distinct costume.

For both, that's not even getting into the idea that Jason died once, Dick came of age as a Teen Titan, Jon was born grew to 11 year of age on Earth and spent roughly 7 in space, and Conner was made rather than born and has wrestled with the idea of his genes predetermining him for evil.

So, yeah man, I think your argument is flawed. In Jason and Dick, two orphaned 20 somethings, can very comfortable function at the same time, there's no reason that Jon and Conner can't.

[jason white reborn]

Gotcha. That's what I thought.

My argument still stands. Dick and Jason are both black haired 20 something year old orphans adopted by Bruce and trained as Robin with a similar skill set and motif to Batman. What makes them distinct is that one is named Dick, goes by Nighwing, has a distinct personality, is close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume, and the other is named Jason, goes by Redhood, has a distinct personality, is not close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume.

Apply the same test to Jon and Conner: Ones name is Jon, likely won't go by Superboy, has a distinct personality, is Clark's son, and wears a distinct costume, and the other's name is Conner, may go by Superboy, is a clone of Clark and Lex, and wears a distinct costume.

For both, that's not even getting into the idea that Jason died once, Dick came of age as a Teen Titan, Jon was born grew to 11 year of age on Earth and spent roughly 7 in space, and Conner was made rather than born and has wrestled with the idea of his genes predetermining him for evil.

So, yeah man, I think your argument is flawed. In Jason and Dick, two orphaned 20 somethings, can very comfortable function at the same time, there's no reason that Jon and Conner can't.

you ignore one foundational context between the robins and the superboys

Jon entire relationship with Damian is ruined(point to bendis tweet till you are blue in the face, It is an objective fact that we are never gonna see super sons ever again because no writer is gonna see Teen jon and damians relationship as anything else but weird, and others writers will never use Jon in anything else, so its effectively siloed, Jon is ruined and is never gonna get fixed).

imagine Dick grayson relationship with the rest of the bat family being rendered similarly un-writable by something bullshit(like his memory being erased, or something that will make writers hesitant to cover that relationship again).

Dick will not have been as popular as he is now.

And jon will never be popular nor interesting as a teen unless Damian is also aged up. And they wont do either of those things

and Connor will be in young justice where his relationships are not similarly ruined

that tells me all i need to know about bendis endgame

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Gotcha. That's what I thought.

My argument still stands. Dick and Jason are both black haired 20 something year old orphans adopted by Bruce and trained as Robin with a similar skill set and motif to Batman. What makes them distinct is that one is named Dick, goes by Nighwing, has a distinct personality, is close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume, and the other is named Jason, goes by Redhood, has a distinct personality, is not close with Bruce, and wears a distinct costume.

Apply the same test to Jon and Conner: Ones name is Jon, likely won't go by Superboy, has a distinct personality, is Clark's son, and wears a distinct costume, and the other's name is Conner, may go by Superboy, is a clone of Clark and Lex, and wears a distinct costume.

For both, that's not even getting into the idea that Jason died once, Dick came of age as a Teen Titan, Jon was born grew to 11 year of age on Earth and spent roughly 7 in space, and Conner was made rather than born and has wrestled with the idea of his genes predetermining him for evil.

So, yeah man, I think your argument is flawed. In Jason and Dick, two orphaned 20 somethings, can very comfortable function at the same time, there's no reason that Jon and Conner can't.

Sure, sure I guess we’ll see. But as your frankly flawed comparison seems to have dwindled down to Jason and Dick. I’m just going to point out that not only are they different. Jason is the anti-grayson. There are clear contrasts with each other. They intentionally wrote modern Jason so that he was the “bad” Robin, while Dick was “good” one. That might be an oversimplification but more or less how it is. Jon and Conner might be different but they seem different in the way that Wally and Barry are different. Maybe their personalities aren’t quite the same and they have different relationships with different characters. But is there really enough contrast to make having them both around interesting or without them stepping on each other’s toes. The age difference could have done a lot to set these two apart. But now we are going to have to settle with this.

[Superlad93]

you ignore one foundational context between the robins and the superboys

I ignored nothing relevant to mine and OpaqueGiraffe17's discussion. I'm not about to engaged in whatever......this is you got going here.