Official : Bendis gets both books

[jason white reborn]

Sure, sure I guess we’ll see. But as your frankly flawed comparison seems to have dwindled down to Jason and Dick. I’m just going to point out that not only are they different. Jason is the anti-grayson. There are clear contrasts with each other. They intentionally wrote modern Jason so that he was the “bad” Robin, while Dick was “good” one. That might be an oversimplification but more or less how it is. Jon and Conner might be different but they seem different in the way that Wally and Barry are different. Maybe their personalities aren’t quite the same and they have different relationships with different characters. But is there really enough contrast to make having them both around interesting or without them stepping on each other’s toes. The age difference could have done a lot to set these two apart. But now we are going to have to settle with this.

and to make it worse, One of them has to get "reinvented" in order for that iconic dynamic(red hood/dick grayson) to be replicated on the superboys

and we all know who that character is gonna be and it is not the one who is rendered untouchable by young justice.

[Superlad93]

But as your frankly flawed comparison seems to have dwindled down to Jason and Dick.

I deliberately used them as the crux of my comparison because it illustrates that your logic regarding Jon and Conner is proven flawed. By your logic these two black haired, handsome, white, 20 something, orphaned, adopted and trained by Batman, former Robin, similar skill set having, Batman motif sporting guys couldn't possibly function together. I was very deliberate with my choice.

Jason is the anti-grayson.

Totally. And conceptually Conner is the anti-Jon. Created as a tool rather than born of love, force aged to 16 rather than naturally growing on, Superman's arch enemy often calls him his "son," and he never went into space for 7 years of his life. Conceptually Conner is the black sheep, and Jon is the heir apparent.

But is there really enough contrast to make having them both around interesting or without them stepping on each other’s toes.

I'd say so yes. Especially when you factor in that in the Superman family Jon is now the most knowledgeable about space (and possibly other dimensions) because he's spent 7 years in it (fitting "careful what you wish for" evolution of Jon's firmly established love for space in Tomasi and Jurgens' runs). He's already slipping in occasional space slang, and it's established that he's done quite a bit of reading/learning on galactic affairs.

Add in the fact that he's Superman's biological son (and all the gravity that comes with it) and his general can-do attitude inherited from his parents that let him not just live through his travels for years, but find his way home and honor the values taught to him, and I'd say that leaves him very distinct from Conner.

[stargazer01]

I'm still waiting to see if I should get his Superman stories when collected in trades. It seems very controversial, some love it some don't.

What about Rebirth Superman stories? Do you guys recommend? I remember hearing mostly love on this one.

[rpmaluki]

I'm still waiting to see if I should get his Superman stories when collected in trades. It seems very controversial, some love it some don't.

What about Rebirth Superman stories? Do you guys recommend? I remember hearing mostly love on this one.

It's best to read find out yourself. I don't see people ever agreeing on Bendis but I believe the books are solid.

[Miles To Go]

I'm still waiting to see if I should get his Superman stories when collected in trades. It seems very controversial, some love it some don't.

What about Rebirth Superman stories? Do you guys recommend? I remember hearing mostly love on this one.

Men of Steel (Action Comics) Imperius Lex (Superman), When I Grow Up (Supersons), and Booster Shot (Action Comics) are all good reads. The latter in particular for involving Lois and Sam, and the last time Booster was written likeable and competently.

[Yoda]

I'm still waiting to see if I should get his Superman stories when collected in trades. It seems very controversial, some love it some don't.

What about Rebirth Superman stories? Do you guys recommend? I remember hearing mostly love on this one.

Rebirth Superman was really good up through like issue 26, then kinda fell off. There's a lot of fill ins and the main teams arcs after that are not as compelling. Though the last Bizzaro arc and the special to close it out are pretty good.

Action Comics is more consistent but not as well done. Still all around a good title.

They cross over with Superman Reborn which is when the New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint Supermen and Loises merge.

All my opinion of course.

For Bendis, Man of Steel is already collected and the first Superman arc collection is coming out next week

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I deliberately used them as the crux of my comparison because it illustrates that your logic regarding Jon and Conner is proven flawed. By your logic these two black haired, handsome, white, 20 something, orphaned, adopted and trained by Batman, former Robin, similar skill set having, Batman motif sporting guys couldn't possibly function together. I was very deliberate with my choice.



Totally. And conceptually Conner is the anti-Jon. Created as a tool rather than born of love, force aged to 16 rather than naturally growing on, Superman's arch enemy often calls him his "son," and he never went into space for 7 years of his life. Conceptually Conner is the black sheep, and Jon is the heir apparent.



I'd say so yes. Especially when you factor in that in the Superman family Jon is now the most knowledgeable about space (and possibly other dimensions) because he's spent 7 years in it (fitting "careful what you wish for" evolution of Jon's firmly established love for space in Tomasi and Jurgens' runs). He's already slipping in occasional space slang, and it's established that he's done quite a bit of reading/learning on galactic affairs.

Add in the fact that he's Superman's biological son (and all the gravity that comes with it) and his general can-do attitude inherited from his parents that let him not just live through his travels for years, but find his way home and honor the values taught to him, and I'd say that leaves him very distinct from Conner.

I respect your opinion, though I think you fundamentally don’t understand what makes Jason the anti-Grayson work. It’s not their relationships with Bruce as you seem to be making Jon and Conner’s contrast about their relationship with Clark. Both Dick and Jason have had positive and antagonististic relationships with Batman depending on the status quo. It’s Jason’s role as more of an anti-hero or outlaw in comparison to just being a straight up hero like Dick. Jason has different values than Dick does. He failed at something that Dick succeeded in. That means a lot more than Jon knowing more space stuff, or Conner being from a test tube instead of being conceived the old fashion way like Jon. I don’t expect an interesting clash between these two if it’s just about that. Which is why I’m getting more Barry/Wally redundancy from this rather than Jason/Dick.

[manwhohaseverything]

You ironically are describing a trope of a teenage character. Which is as generic as they come. There's nothing that's been shown that Jon will fit any of those tropes so far. So yes, I think he will be the exception. Jon's sense of awe may be lessened, but that awe children have for their parents is based on basically not seeing their parents as real people who have flaws, their own struggles, and doubts, etc. So Jon is now going to be able to relate to his father on a level that a child can't. He's going to see his father differently, yes, but the idea that he won't still look up to Superman, or feel stress about living up to Superman's example is not likely. There is plenty to mine from this new dynamic and basically Bendis has to reestablish how the family relates to each other, it's allowing him to build that out in a way.
I don't disagree with you on this point. I saw Jon as basically adding an expiration date to the Superman status quo of the Superfamily from the beginning. That Bendis seems intent on not just going for a reset and building off of it actually makes me think this is going to stick around for a bit. Its one of the reasons I think all this change ultimately may be good for the family's status. They are working to keep it going, even if its a little differently.

Lor-zod is a 10 year old kid and Jon is 17 years old now. 17 year old guy fighting a kid is stupid and not cool,atleast for me. How is that a rivalry? Rivals have something in common that both aim for. Jon and lor-zod have none now.

Following a trope Doesn't make something generic. doing so in an uninspired manner does. My hero academia follows shonen tropes to a T. Many in anime community even accuse it for being too similar to Naruto. But, still it is pretty popular and cool. Because the author wasn't going for something truly original. He wanted something that can lift your spirits. So he took tropes in shonens like naruto and Dbz added some american superhero flavours. Created something that is entertaining and has a lot of heart. He combined golden age superman/captain america and gave him a zenkai boost like goku. He also gave him a successor inspired by spiderman. All these things made people forget that it is can be considered generic. If you copy from multiple sources it becomes research.

Here, jon is basically the same with uninspired modifications. He is writing jon as the same(similar to what you said and my problem with it) without any of the factors that made kid jon work . So it comes of empty.Bendis didn't give Jon his own unique interesting spin on the character. Since he is hellbent on reinventing him.he should have added somethings to the character more interesting. That is why i called this jon generic. Tell me why should i care for jon because he makes stupid noises mid speech?making noises is not some great characterisation. It has no backstory. It has no emotional value. Give jon something that has emotional value to it.Eg:-bruce wayne being inspired by gray ghost to be batman. Or conner's hate of being inside cubicle from his own backstory. Copying 'pa' thing which was Clark's thing that i liked. It felt forced and unoriginal. Jon didn't need that. Copy pasting the personality also doesn't work. These are the reason why i call this Jon generic.

Kids can admire and hero worship their parents with out anything holding them back, teen don't. They don't have enough experience with people, teens do and so are more cynical. Precisely what i liked about kid jon. Peeling the layers of his parents and the larger world is what gave Jon's character a sense of progression and an arc. Now that arc doesn't exist. Jon has to have a level of cynicism and experience as he is close to an adult now. Otherwise it is just comes of looking weird. Him being another teen who knows clark is flawed. Where is the arc in that?
As for people saying jon is convoluted every super character including Clark kent is convoluted maybe more so than jon now.
I read new superson series preview thing . It isn't for me. I don't care for that Jon or damian. I am just going to read the Supersons i liked until it ends. It was good run, while it lasted. I sincerely hope,that jon is turned back. Bendis and dc should have just erased jon and been upfront about it.
Clark kent being treated like crap would be it for me. There are 2 things i like about Superman above all else. "the never ending battle" and clumsy clark kent. If these two things aren't respected then it isn't really a superman story for me.

[Superlad93]

I think you fundamentally don’t understand what makes Jason the anti-Grayson work.

I understand it fine. What I gave you were fundamental distinctions between Jon and Conner on a conceptual level that are, well, distinct. I only gave you these because I obviously can't go into greater detail because Conner hasn't had more than a lines worth of dialog, and Jon has had 2 issue but primarily focused on his past rather than present. But the conceptual distinctions (being born vs created, having a childhood vs being created at 16, living in space for 7 years vs not) are quite strong to begin with.

It’s Jason’s role as more of an anti-hero or outlaw in comparison to just being a straight up hero like Dick. Jason has different values than Dick does. He failed at something that Dick succeeded in. That means a lot more than Jon knowing more space stuff, or Conner being from a test tube instead of being conceived the old fashion way like Jon. I don’t expect an interesting clash between these two if it’s just about that

But why would it JUST be about that? Again, the story is still unfolding and one of the players in question hasn't even spoken for a full issue. You're reasons dismissal of strong conceptual differences seems almost arbitrary by this point. You're asking for differences. With limited relevant material on the characters, I'm providing differences that go beyond the skin deep, and instead represent fundamental distinctions. I respect that you're strongly against an older Jon just based on your own personal taste and enjoyment. You want me to tell you want they'll function like as people? I can't. That's not published yet, but to dismiss clearly laid out conceptual uniqueness that clearly diverge the two as "redundancy" is the internet equivalent of plugging your ears, dude. Like, it's there on a conceptual level even before we talk about character.

[jason white reborn]

lets agree that when jon gets siloed away(and becomes underused) they will be a clear reason why....bendis

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I understand it fine. What I gave you were fundamental distinctions between Jon and Conner on a conceptual level that are, well, distinct. I only gave you these because I obviously can't go into greater detail because Conner hasn't had more than a lines worth of dialog, and Jon has had 2 issue but primarily focused on his past rather than present. But the conceptual distinctions (being born vs created, having a childhood vs being created at 16, living in space for 7 years vs not) are quite strong to begin with.



But why would it JUST be about that? Again, the story is still unfolding and one of the players in question hasn't even spoken for a full issue. You're reasons dismissal of strong conceptual differences seems almost arbitrary by this point. You're asking for differences. With limited relevant material on the characters, I'm providing differences that go beyond the skin deep, and instead represent fundamental distinctions. I respect that you're strongly against an older Jon just based on your own personal taste and enjoyment. You want me to tell you want they'll function like as people? I can't. That's not published yet, but to dismiss clearly laid out conceptual uniqueness that clearly diverge the two as "redundancy" is the internet equivalent of plugging your ears, dude. Like, it's there on a conceptual level even before we talk about character.

I’m just responding to the contrast examples you’ve given. Sorry that I have valid skeptism (and that’s what I would label my feelings at this time, not “dismissal”) about something you are exited about but I do, and I have good reason to be so since Bendis has done nothing but let me down since he’s joined the books. I’ve responded to the points you’ve made and I’ve done so respectfully. I’ve never asked you to know any more than any other reader. Just that I far from impressed with how he’s currently setting up these two to coexist since he is scrapping an useful means for them to be different. If you’ve come to a different opinion, i totally respect that.

[Superlad93]

I’m just responding to the contrast examples you’ve given. Sorry that I have valid skeptism (and that’s what I would label my feelings at this time, not “dismissal”) about something you are exited about but I do, and I have good reason to be so since Bendis has done nothing but let me down since he’s joined the books. I’ve responded to the points you’ve made and I’ve done so respectfully. I’ve never asked you to know any more than any other reader. Just that I far from impressed with how he’s currently setting up these two to coexist since he is scrapping an useful means for them to be different. If you’ve come to a different opinion, i totally respect that.

I wanted to go back and change my last post slightly because it came off too "in your face." I made special care not to attack or belittle you, but it was a very forceful post, so hopefully not too much offence was taken. But I want to be very clear: your skepticism or your tastes and feeling towards the general idea are not under fire or being invalidated. I try very hard to make sure my wording doesn't disrespect any of those feelings. But, what I'm asking you is simple: is being a clone born at 16 inherently different from being a biological child with a childhood? If Bendis assures us that there'll be a name re branding between the two Superboys, does that not add more basic distinction? What I'm labeling as dismissal is you characterizing these and other similar conceptual aspects as superficial. That's something I'm fundamentally not understanding about your argument.

We can amicably agree to disagree. I'm totally fine with that. I just wanted to be as clear as possible in what the aim of my words were and are.

[Vordan]

I'm still waiting to see if I should get his Superman stories when collected in trades. It seems very controversial, some love it some don't.

What about Rebirth Superman stories? Do you guys recommend? I remember hearing mostly love on this one.

Tomasi Superman was great from Vols. 1-4. After Black Dawn the book had an atrocious amount of boring filler stories which are collected in Vol. 5. Skip Vol.5 imo. Vols. 6 & 7, Imperius Lex and Bizarroverse are good. Bizarroverse is as great as the starting arcs imo, and is probably one of the best “ending” arcs since Morrison Action Comics imo.

Jurgens Action depends on how much you like Jurgens pet characters. Do you love Doomsday and Hank Henshaw? You’ll love his run then. I liked Men of Steel which is Jurgens doing a Lex-Supes teamup that handles CWII’s subject matter waaaaay better than Bendis did. The Revenge arc was ok, but one thing I hated was how Jurgens writes Zod. When he writes Zod interacting with other people his Zod is good. But when it’s Zod vs. Kal all he does is have Zod scream “KNEEL” over and over again until you ******* hate that word. I much prefer the Johns/Bendis/Zack Snyder Zod who is a much more Ra’s Al Ghul character who wants Kal on his side and is a more well-rounded character imo. The Terrance Stamp characterization doesn’t hold up as well anymore imo.

If you haven’t read Jurgens Lois & Clark you should, I love that run much more than Jurgens Action. Acts as a prelude to Rebirth.

[Kon93]

You all have multiple arguments going on at once, which I think is great.

Jon should have never been aged up

Bendis did it imo to start up the Legion and to have older Jon go with them

Jon and SB are nothing like each other besides the generic half superman, kryptonain powers, and now age.

Lor zod would have been the best nemesis to a 10 year old jon

Bendis writes for trade, which I don't like, he also writes characters the way he wants to, not the way they have been written in the past.

Bendis work feels fresh, and real, dynamic, but it isn't as deep as he thinks it is.

Jurgens doesn't write fresh dynamic stuff, but his stuff is in character, gets to the point,and doesn't shit on anything from the past.

SB is getting a regular spot on the Titans show, amd has been on YJ, so he is as safe as a character can be.

SB should focus on being with his friends and being a pain in daddy lexs ass, while using his TTK, with all the attitude he can muster

[jason white reborn]

People who defend age up jon can argue that this doesn't ruin the character till they are blue in the face, but the fact remains is that no one is gonna touch the kid the second conner shows up(they fill the same niche as teen superman, to say otherwise is willful arrogance).

Jon popularity is pretty much gone, so expect him to be Chris kented away(and never seen again)


Thanks bendis