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  1. #5566
    Fantastic Member MeGrimlock420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Jurgens was going to include an aged up Jon in Batman Beyond, but that didn't happen either. Covers were even made for it.
    I would like to see that one day.
    Last edited by MeGrimlock420; 03-03-2019 at 03:07 PM.

  2. #5567
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    They were. Remember the Amazon solicitation for one of the Jurgens-penned Action Comics trades that never came to be? because of the Bendis hire? It said something would change Clark's relationship with his family. Something was always going to happen.

    Also, Jurgens was going to include an aged up Jon in Batman Beyond, but that didn't happen either. Covers were even made for it.
    I had forgotten about those. So yeah, there very likely was some sort of plan to shake things up. Oz was likely going to factor into the storytelling more, Sam Lane too. And I even saw some foreshadowing of an issue arising out of Booster's save of Jon, Sam, and Lois. It sounds like Bendis was shown certain things and asked for his spin on them. That's how we got Leviathan. For all we know, there could have been a plan to drop Lois from the books as a way to add some drama to the family, like maybe the timeline finding some way to get rid of her and Jon as a way to repair Booster's meddling, and Bendis found another way to tweak the marriage to add some drama without resorting to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Whoa, hey now, get that cool headed and thoughtful look at a situation out of my face, guy.

    Jokes aside, way to put things in perspective.
    Haha, I know right. I need to edit in a few insults or passive aggressive comments to even things out at least.

  3. #5568
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    For all we know, there could have been a plan to drop Lois from the books as a way to add some drama to the family, like maybe the timeline finding some way to get rid of her and Jon as a way to repair Booster's meddling, and Bendis found another way to tweak the marriage to add some drama without resorting to that.
    .
    What? Well by that logic Jurgens next issue could also have revealed that Clark’s been a nazi the whole time. Ok totally fine with people digging Bendis’s vision and whatnot. But now apologists are just resorting to fabricating some random nightmare theory out of nowhere that everything about to go to even deeper shit right before savior Bendis showed up.
    And personally I would so prefer Lois disappear from the books than be written the way Bendis has been writing her.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 03-03-2019 at 03:37 PM.

  4. #5569
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    What? Well by that logic Jurgens next issue could also have revealed that Clark’s been a nazi the whole time. Ok totally fine with people digging Bendis’s vision and whatnot. But now apologists are just resorting to fabricating some random nightmare theory out of nowhere that everything about to go to even deeper shit right before savior Bendis showed up.
    And personally I would so prefer Lois disappear from the books than be written the way Bendis has been writing her.
    It's not random. A big theme of the Booster arc was that you couldn't change time without repercussions. At the very end Booster says f'that and saves Jon, Sam, and Lois. There were solicits hinting at a shake up. And Didio explicitly said there were plans to keep Lois out of the books for a long time. So it's a theory grounded in what we actually have seen laid out in the books, solicits, and through interviews. It's connecting dots, sure, but it's not fabricated or random.

    Plus, I presented it as my interpretation of everything and a theory. But the idea that something could have been in the cards regardless of Bendis' involvement isn't that unlikely.

    And I'm not apologizing for anyone. I've been plenty critical of Bendis' handling and treatment of Lois in this run and have significant reservations about where I see him going with this. I just don't see things as dire as everyone else and despite my reservations I'm enjoying a lot of different aspects of this run.
    Last edited by Yoda; 03-03-2019 at 05:10 PM.

  5. #5570
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Never heard of that Didio quote but whatever shakeup or may not have been planned, there is about zero chance it would have involved fridging Lois, that’s just reaching. So we can safely do without the savior Bendis narrative.

  6. #5571
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    What? Well by that logic Jurgens next issue could also have revealed that Clark’s been a nazi the whole time. Ok totally fine with people digging Bendis’s vision and whatnot. But now apologists are just resorting to fabricating some random nightmare theory out of nowhere that everything about to go to even deeper shit right before savior Bendis showed up.
    And personally I would so prefer Lois disappear from the books than be written the way Bendis has been writing her.
    Whatever Jurgens had planned would almost certainly have not been what Bendis did, but I do agree with Yoda that a shake-up was almost certainly in the works. Gotta remember that editorial also plays a role in shaping the books and they probably wanted a status quo shake-up in the hopes of recapturing public interest and regaining some sales.

  7. #5572
    Spectacular Member Journey's Avatar
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    The problem with Bendis's run isn't the story itself. It's the overall execution of the story as a whole. If written properly it could have been good. Even the Jon thing which I for 1 hate and I've explained why so I'm not gonna go there, could have been if nothing else an interesting story. However there's no cohesive reason why this happened to begin with. Him going into space with Jor-el despite the bull Bendis trying to pass in the issues makes no sense, the fact Clark and Lois allowed it makes no sense, why Lois left makes no sense. And characterization is also a big part Lois is kind of a mess, Clark is all over the place, and Teen Jon is just kind of "blah" Jor-el is just a nonfactor. Point I'm making he has the characters making choices with no real reasoning behind them and it kills the story.

    Maybe if the reasoning behind the characters made sense then the story as a whole would make some sense. Sloppy writing doesn't sell. IMO *shrugs*

  8. #5573
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The problem with Bendis's run isn't the story itself. It's the overall execution of the story as a whole. If written properly it could have been good. Even the Jon thing which I for 1 hate and I've explained why so I'm not gonna go there, could have been if nothing else an interesting story. However there's no cohesive reason why this happened to begin with. Him going into space with Jor-el despite the bull Bendis trying to pass in the issues makes no sense, the fact Clark and Lois allowed it makes no sense, why Lois left makes no sense. And characterization is also a big part Lois is kind of a mess, Clark is all over the place, and Teen Jon is just kind of "blah" Jor-el is just a nonfactor. Point I'm making he has the characters making choices with no real reasoning behind them and it kills the story.

    Maybe if the reasoning behind the characters made sense then the story as a whole would make some sense. Sloppy writing doesn't sell. IMO *shrugs*
    It's like an outline without the fill in material in a lot of ways. Clark does X, Jor El does Y. Lois then does Z. His execution has definitely been all over the place and rushed. He's also shot himself in the foot several times, most egregiously with the three week timetable. You could have made Lois' decision to leave Jon make sense, but not in a day. Clark's moping also would have made sense, but not when his family has been gone for a few days. Lois' absence from the Daily Planet as well, but she's gone for like two days before people assume she left Clark. It's all rushed and not fleshed out at all.

  9. #5574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The problem with Bendis's run isn't the story itself. It's the overall execution of the story as a whole. If written properly it could have been good. Even the Jon thing which I for 1 hate and I've explained why so I'm not gonna go there, could have been if nothing else an interesting story. However there's no cohesive reason why this happened to begin with. Him going into space with Jor-el despite the bull Bendis trying to pass in the issues makes no sense, the fact Clark and Lois allowed it makes no sense, why Lois left makes no sense. And characterization is also a big part Lois is kind of a mess, Clark is all over the place, and Teen Jon is just kind of "blah" Jor-el is just a nonfactor. Point I'm making he has the characters making choices with no real reasoning behind them and it kills the story.

    Maybe if the reasoning behind the characters made sense then the story as a whole would make some sense. Sloppy writing doesn't sell. IMO *shrugs*
    Oh good God!!! you wrote exactly what I think about

  10. #5575
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In the highly likely hypothetical that Jurgens and co were going to do something with Lois in regards to "shaking things up", any confidence it would have been received better than what Bendis is doing now would be without foundation. For all his positive contributions, he was a major part of the group that essentially had Lois break off their engagement because Superman wouldn't kill for her. Yes at the time it happened because their hands were tied and they needed to figure out a way to get a break going, but they chose virtually the most out of character element possible to do it. People have done dumb things with Lois. Not just bad Superman writers. Good Superman writers. There are no guarantees. No one's painting out Bendis as a savior and being an apologist for everything he does. What I do see people like Yoda doing though is approaching things as the multifaceted situation this is, not just the cut and dry "We told you so" narrative coming now from a certain camp.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-03-2019 at 04:58 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  11. #5576
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Breaking the engagement had more set up than Lori/Jeb/Joker combo and has aged well at least in the sense that the characters actually talked (compared to Action 1004) but yeah, none of this current stuff would be held up as glaring examples if there wasn't so much doubt and suspicion from the get go.

    The sales are a little disappointing to me because there's so much attention to the line right now. I don't even wanna know where Supergirl is sitting
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  12. #5577
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    I think a better way to compare a titles success, is to see where the titles fall usually in the top rather than per unit sales.

    Superman for years is selling in the top 20-30. Thats Just the reality of it.


    And I dont consider 50k bad for the book, especially not in a month where batman sold 80k and JL by Snyder no less sold around 60k.


    With no prejudice and a calm mind you will see Superman sales better than most AAA super-heroes. And most titles ahead of him are either number 1s or limited series, Spiderman or Batman.
    Last edited by Man_of_Tomorrow; 03-04-2019 at 01:05 AM.

  13. #5578
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    The bendis defenders unable to defend bendis in light of sales and Jon complete destruction as a popular character(look at the Jon thread before bendis and now after bendis, let's just say Jon is probably gonna get killed and it's bendis's fault) resort to criticizing jurgens and tomasi to prop bendis up.

    Predictable

  14. #5579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I call a cat a cat. No matter what happens. Especially in a fanbase supposed to support the Man of Tomorrow, not the Man of Yestercentury.
    We will take superman back while your new 52 superman will stay dead

  15. #5580
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    I love Jon and he worked best as a child thus far, and I do prefer a married Superman than not at this juncture, but I don't get the Bendis hate. The books have been good (Superman) to great (Action) and he's expanding the line and influence of the Superbooks to a point not seen since New Krypton (and I'm a lot more engaged now than I was then).

    Is there some reason for concern? Sure. The narrative could take a huge dive and ruin the Kent-Lane family. It could also be a great story that redoubles the need for them to be together and be a great chapter in Jon's life. Literally everything in between those extremes is possible, but I'm enjoying the ride thus far.

    "Truth" this is not, and I'm usually prone to my share of over-reaction.

    Relax. We're getting Conner back, Jimmy and Lois are getting books by acclaimed writers, Superman is at the forefront of an event and an entire imprint is being launched with him involved in each to some measure.

    All things considered, it's a great time to be a Superman fan. I loved Rebirth too, but I don't think we'd be here if that kept up. The major loss was Super Sons, but that could eventually return too and Wonder Comics, Lois and Jimmy are worth the trade off in my mind.

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